What happened BEFORE the big bang?

Originally posted by VreemdeVlieendeVoorwep

this is a post about nothing!

reply to post by orangutang

 

Thanks to everyone for sharing their ideas and theories, I for one appreciate it.

Majestic, your theory about colliding universes are also starting to grow (no pun) on me. I will give it more thought, and maybe try to forumlate a theory combining everyone's ideas.

VVV
's

Good for you VVV
So ask why I think universes collide, well it’s like the universe doesn’t actually have gravity. Remember you thought there was enough mass including dark matter in the universe for it to eventually implode. We are told there is not and to prove it they discovered that the universe is still expanding and not only that accelerating.
Keep with me VVV, recall gravity waves, our moon sits in that wave and just keeps rolling round. Earth sits in the suns gravity wave. Eventually our galaxy sits in a gravity wave of the universe its all about rotation; you will have seen examples in countless documentaries. This keeps everything together its stops our solar system from expanding or flying off to nowhere.
I don’t recall it discussed where our universe is held by anything. There was an attempt to measure its rotation but they drew a blank and believed it was not in rotation. So this is it,, our universe is not held by any external gravity that means no matter how much mass it will still expand.
My conclusion is that other universes would be under the same rule and if there is other universes and they collide we probably get a big bang.
I present it to you as a theory for sure but you gotta admit it’s not bad.

reply to post by VreemdeVlieendeVoorwep


ok, thanx.

and the hindus i believe refer to creation as the inbreath and outbreath of brahman if i remember correctly.

bang out, bang in ??

Originally posted by ldyserenity
reply to post by VreemdeVlieendeVoorwep

 

The Buddhists and many other cultures have described our universe as "The Grand Illusion". And what if it is...what if all the "WE" are really just one conciousness experiencing these lives as a trick of the mind to try and explain our/it's existance...this means nothing exists, no space/no matter, no time, no physical body, just a neverending dream, trying to reach a goal, to understand why it even is concious. Just my theory. Here is a good video on this:

Watched the vid thanks - pretty much seen the full versions of all of them. I was going to bring this into this thread myself but couldn’t decide if it would derail it so I didn’t. Anyhow test tube universe or living in a computer does explain an awful lot and is in fact registering quite strongly with me. Just wanted to acknowledge your post

Anyhow back to the real world,, i think !!

Cheers
MJ2

According to Jewish Kabbalah, the physical universe is but the last of the ten stages of manifestation of God. The problem with such questions as what existed before the Big Bang is that science ASSUMES that it has in principle the ability to provide a complete explanation of everything. Its inability to move beyond the singularities of Einstein's general relativity equations at t = 0 demonstrates, of course, that it cannot. Cosmology breaks down when confronted with issues that expose the self-imposed limitations of science. For, if we suppose that the religions of the world, are indeed, correct in asserting the existence of superphysical realities, don't you think their interface with physical reality would need to be understood before the question of what existed before the space-time continuum was born could be completely answered? But science denies such an interface exists because it has locked itself into a room it calls 'reality'. "In my Father's house are many rooms" and you cannot understand the basement of this house until you understand how it is connected to these other rooms.

If you want to learn how the physical universe emerges cyclically from the atemporal spiritual cosmos, how the latter is mathematically described, how it is encoded in sacred geometries of religions and how this encoding explains the nature of the symmetry groups required by ten-dimensional superstrings, may I invite you to study the research in the section called "Maps of reality" at:
www.smphillips.8m.com...
Article 5 at
www.smphillips.8m.com...
provides more analysis of the mathematical map of all levels of reality and how M-theory is part of this scheme, as do other research articles posted there. This website proves that it is possible to move beyond the self-imposed myopia of the scientific zeitgeist in a way that integrates scientific discoveries within a conceptual framework as mathematically rigorous as any theory of particle physics. If you are willing to encounter astounding, mathematical evidence for divine design, be prepared to be delighted.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by VreemdeVlieendeVoorwep

 

The question could be considered nonsensical as the concept of 'before' might not apply until the event of the big bang happened. The big bang formed spacetime as we know it and we do not know if time itself existed until the big bang.

Without time there is no way to measure 'before' or 'after'.

(First of all: then where did consciousness come from? Was it present at the "big bang"; assuming, of course, that there is any such thing in the first place?)

On the contrary, in the Australian aboriginal religions there is something referred to as the "time before time"; whereas the time that we exist in now is called the "dream time"; something like the illusion or maya of the Eastern traditions, as I understand it.

Michael

Originally posted by micpsiAccording to Jewish Kabbalah, the physical universe is but the last of the ten stages of manifestation of God.

The Teaching referred to as Kabbalah originates in the Vision of the "Son of man", the "Vision of Knowledge" (in the Thanksgiving Hymns of the Dead Sea Scrolls), or the "Night Journey" of Mohammed in the Quran; also referred to as the "Tree of Life" in Genesis 3:24.

The Ten Sephirot can be understood as the ten principal phonetic tones of human language--Long and short A, E, I, O and U; whereas the distribution of those tones in the geometry of the Kabbalist "Tree of Life" is, roughly, the distribution of those phonetic tones across the "Seven Churches" of the Revelation of John or the "seven chakras" of kundalini (or the principal ganglia of the sympathetic nervous system to Western physiology.)

The Vision of the "Son of man" occurs prior to the creation of both 3-dimensional 'curved' space as well as time.

This is what is signified by the opening light sequence in the "Jupiter and Beyond the Infinite" "Stargate Segment" in 2001--A Space Odyssey.

Michael

reply to post by VreemdeVlieendeVoorwep


Well it would appear that we both agree that nothingness is something if only for the fact we are able to understand that it is nothing. WOw makes one sound like a fruit loop.

Also your question is the same one I was attempting to pose but failed to get across clearly in my post, which is What was before. That is to say maybe there were many universes, maybe an infinite number even. The question to me still arises,,,,,,WHY?

Why is it that such things even exists and by what force so they exist be it Accidental anomaly or divine providence. The question sticks in the craw of science as it if forced to explain something that it hasn't yet reached into. Moreover most science explains things quantifiable with in the scope of the perceivable universe, and can guess statistics for such things as life on other planets.
However it finds itself stymied on figuring statistics for things beyond the realm of whatever the hell never mind I have confused my damn self now.

Since the universe is space and time itself, it's safe to amuse that nothing existed before the big bang. Then one day it expanded (big bang) and then everything was created. This energy is eternal and it is basically light and some type of heat/gas.

Originally posted by arpgme
Since the universe is space and time itself, it's safe to amuse that nothing existed before the big bang. Then one day it expanded (big bang) and then everything was created. This energy is eternal and it is basically light and some type of heat/gas.

But the universe, as we know it, is more then just space and time. Matter, Energy etc, are all included in the formula.

So if nothing exsisted before the big bang, how did it expand? How does "nothing" expand? Does it become more nothingness?

I am sorry, but I still hold to the believe that before the big bang, several other universes exsisted. We are living in but one of many universes. I would now even venture onto the subject of parallell universes. I believe that the parallell universes, are basically all these previous universes that existed before ours. The energy of those collapsed universes still linger, as a parrallell universe to our own.

Think about it a bit before shooting me down. I know that all we are doing is speculating, but I find it interesting to see what different minds come up with.

I am suggesting that the parallel universe are former universes that collapsed just before our universe was born. I don't know if Majestic might agree, but this might tie in with his expanding universe theory. In that case the parallel universe, is merely an overlay of another universe. But if that is the case, no two universes can exist in the same time space continium. Therefore I believe that a parallell universe is merely the risidual energy from a previous collapsed universe, existing within our sphere of reality.

VVv

reply to post by micpsi


Micpsi, thank you very much for your enlightening post.

I will read the links you provided, as it seems very interesting.

Youself and Michael seem to be rather intelligent chaps, and I do appreciate your comments. Always insightful and full of information. Thanks.

Vvv

Originally posted by VreemdeVlieendeVoorwep

Originally posted by arpgme
Since the universe is space and time itself, it's safe to amuse that nothing existed before the big bang. Then one day it expanded (big bang) and then everything was created. This energy is eternal and it is basically light and some type of heat/gas.

But the universe, as we know it, is more then just space and time. Matter, Energy etc, are all included in the formula.

But so, too, is consciousness. Consciousness is also a 'part' or aspect of the universe.

Now, did this consciousness originate with the "big bang", or did it originate from a time after the "big bang"?

And, if it did, where did it come from?

These questions cannot be simply ignored as being of no importance.

So if nothing exsisted before the big bang, how did it expand? How does "nothing" expand? Does it become more nothingness?

I am sorry, but I still hold to the believe that before the big bang, several other universes exsisted.

But this does not in any way resolve the problem. It merely shifts the problem to where did these other universes originate from?

We are living in but one of many universes. I would now even venture onto the subject of parallell universes. I believe that the parallell universes, are basically all these previous universes that existed before ours. The energy of those collapsed universes still linger, as a parrallell universe to our own.

Think about it a bit before shooting me down. I know that all we are doing is speculating, but I find it interesting to see what different minds come up with.

Hold it.

'Mind'?

Where did any 'mind' come from?

Who says that there is any such thing as a 'mind'?

I suggest that the 'mind' is something like the "ether" of classical physics; that it does not really exist.

I am suggesting that the parallel universe are former universes that collapsed just before our universe was born. I don't know if Majestic might agree, but this might tie in with his expanding universe theory. In that case the parallel universe, is merely an overlay of another universe. But if that is the case, no two universes can exist in the same time space continium. Therefore I believe that a parallell universe is merely the risidual energy from a previous collapsed universe, existing within our sphere of reality.

VVv

There is no way of escaping an infinite regress of thought.

An infinite regress cannot be used as an explanation for anything.

Michael

reply to post by VreemdeVlieendeVoorwep


You have probably already considered this but if not I thought I would mention it.

I was thinking that in order to attempt fully to grasp what happened before the big bang it might be best to first understand where the Universe is heading, in other words it's eventual demise.

Whether that demise is met through eternal expansion and eventual degrade of all energy, or if it is through a big crunch culminating into an infinite hot spot virtual singularity.

If we can understand how the universe will end then we may be able to better understand where it came from.

some of what I have read so far in this thread sounds a lot like the theories of Tipler, who like many others I don't entirely agree with but they are interesting nonetheless. If such a thing as an Omega point exists then perhaps the destruction of the universe can be used to create a new one. If that is so then it could have been done an infinite number of times since such a point could never be reached per se.

Or you could interpret the beginning of the universe to a metasystem transition, where whatever was before was completely different but still a part of the whole, and that whatever happens next will be different from our current structure but most likely more advanced in or progressive way cosmologically speaking.

So it seems to me that by understanding where we are going we can better understand where we came from.

One of the theories I have read in recent years was one that I actually wrote a thread on a few weeks ago about species development and the need to survive the end of the universe as a whole. In the scenario a supposed Species of class III and above on the Kardeshev scale would use the energy of the universe to basically side step its destruction by either creating a artificial universe somewhere else or creating a real one in a different place using available resources from the dying one. Sorry I just spoke in a circle. :@@

There are many variables in such a theory that would need to be addressed but it is just one of many possibilities for the beginning of a universe.

reply to post by snowen20

Your entire argument, as you readily admit, is based upon thought or 'thinking'; in other words, time.

That is, the universe was created at one point in time and it will collapse at another point in time.

But what happens if there is no time or thought?

What happens if the universe is both being created and annihilated simultaneously? And that this simultaneity is that within which we live all of our lives?

There are some interesting discussions about 2D and 3D space and General Relativity etc. on the Sarfatti Physics Seminars Yahoo discussion group, in case you are interested.

At least, in the past, I have been able to publish, periodically, some of my most important ruminations about consciousness on the that group, as compared to the JCS (Journal of Consciousness Studies) Yahoo 'discussion' group which quite regularly ignores my research and has for the past couple of years.

Michael

reply to post by Michael Cecil


Ill be the first to admit I don't have a clue about what is going on in the broader scope of things, but sadly I would say most are in that same boat when it comes to such things as numbers higher than a google or words like forever.

I see what your saying and I don't disagree, conversely however it is like the following, IMO alone:

Space is a big fat nothing and with in that space there are a lot of stars galaxies and physics going on or cosmological properties that make "something".

SO I say "Hey I wanna build a house and I know where t do it. There is this very large expanse of emptiness where we can build a house and once it's built the house and all its physical properties will be all that exists with in that space"
Then another person quickly rebuts... NO... NO... NO... There is no vast expanse of emptiness, stop saying that, because if there were it would contradict the nothingness issue."

Then we all slap our foreheads collectively, recognizing that somewhere beyond time there is still a vast expanse of emptiness. That it doesn't matter if we know of it or not it has been and will always be there.

SO someone may say " Yeah but there wasn't anyone wanting to build a universe" That may be, however there is still a vast expanse of nothingness where a big bang occurred. If not and all that void we see is part of that bigbang, then what is it expanding into? Well it's expanding into more void.

A little,, void on void action ohh yeah.

And at the very end I still ask the question of not how is a void there, but WHY is a void there?

VreemdeVlieendeVoorv - Well, whatever the big bang was made of (energy/light) is what formed matter, since all matter is basically energy when you break down the atoms and see that it's made of energy/frequencies. Also, see what Michael Cecil said.

snowen20 - The void keeps separation between all matter. If there was no void/space, everything would be all tangled together and it will be like the big bang, everything will be bunched up as one light/energy.


Now here is my personal opinion and reasoning regarding "Multiuniverses". If the universe is everything that exists anywhere, how can another universe exist? There can't be everything that exists everywhere at one place and then another everything that exists everywhere because that is illogical. That's like saying that I have an infinite amount of books and now I want to get another infinite amount of books.

reply to post by arpgme


Agreed.

I do think that science or lay people or just all humans in general tend to speak in absolutes a little too much.
This leads people to close their minds to other possibilities.

As we advance we start looking at things differently than people in past centuries, As a result a lot of the criteria that makes for cultural development no longer fits nicely into a paradigm.

People are often struggling to find the reasons for things, but they forget why they even believe what they are attempting to justify. lol the result.....stalemate.

I do think that it is possible to have over lapping universes, or other dimensions. Though the mere definition of the word UNIVERSE counters that reasoning.

Some of you might remember this common model of the big bang they use in schools. The teacher will draw little galaxies on the balloon then blow it out to show expansion.......




His lungs should be deflating as the model universe inflates... so its a valid question.


Reminds me of the Hindu "Brahma" or the great out-breath of creation.

Originally posted by 547000
Before implies that there was time. There is no before.

thats just simply stupid in my perspective

for you say that there was no before, it would mean that we are a virtual system that was created at the big bang moment

otherwise, there was a before

just because we cant understand it, doesnt mean it doesnt exist

Before the big bang?

I'd say the fuse was lit and we all ran as fast as we could!

Either that, or the "big crunch".

Originally posted by VreemdeVlieendeVoorwep
reply to post by 547000

 

Is time not the only constant? Everything is measured in time.
Even "before" there must have been something.

What happens in a dream before you start dreaming it?

Time is not a constant. Changing the rate of movement also changes the rate at which time passes.