Get a clue America

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
That's why many Americans are seeing the similarities between Hitler and the entire Obama administration...

Yeah, you can't count on absolutely everybody to be smart, I grant you that.

OP, Don't generalize. It's an a-hole thing to do. I could say that everyone that isn't American is just an America-hating cry-baby that's pissy about not having what we have. I honestly don't feel that way at all, but you get my point?

I for one (as an "ignorant" American) don't let too many days go by before I stop and be thankful for everything that I have. I know I'm fortunate. I have a great job (pays the bills and not much more but I love it), house, car, wonderful marriage and kids, etc. I don't take it for granted at all. In fact I'm almost convinced I have these things purely through happenstance.

I feel that there are some recent infringements on our freedoms, but I'm not ready to revolt. I can't think of anything that I like to do that's inappropriately hindered or inhibited in some way. I enjoy a semblance of freedom and I know that it's far more than some others get. For those who want to completely relieve themselves of government interaction, obligation, or benefit can go research the "free man" movement. From what I understand it can be done. I'm just don't feel the need to remove myself from the system. Broken as it may be, it's not complete garbage.

I pay for part of my own health insurance (employer pays a portion) and overall I'm pretty satisfied with it, but I don't doubt for a second that there's a better way to run things. I know there are people that don't have insurance and that need some way to receive care - I support initiatives that address this. HOWEVER, there are MANY people that know how to "game" the system - They receive benefits such as a welfare check and food stamps, yet they still have money to go and get their nails done, buy new cars, useless crap, etc. I saw a court case where this practice was challenged and the judge could do nothing about it because they were technically abiding by the rules. They just know how to work the system. This is why I don't have confidence in a gov't option. There are people that will exploit it for all that it's worth just because they can get something for free.

Conversely, I have no problem with socialism in principle. I actually had the passing thought of moving to a more socialized country. I rather like the idea of paying higher taxes in exchange for free services that benefit EVERYONE. But then again I'm one that would take advantage of those benefits. If I never planned on getting an education or getting sick then I might be complaining about America moving in that direction.

I don't dislike Obama at all - given the chance to vote again with the same choices I'd still vote for him. I would have LOVED to see what Ron Paul could have done for us, but realistically he wasn't an option. I refused to support McCain simply because I found it atrocious that he would joke about bombing other countries.

So there you have it. I resent being lumped into the "ignorant American" group just because I live here. I submit that the idiots make the most noise and make it harder to notice the down-to-earth people that are at least on the brink of normal.

reply to post by an0maly33

HOWEVER, there are MANY people that know how to "game" the system

Let's repeat this again.

HOWEVER, there are MANY people that know how to "game" the system

YEAH, and that includes corporate executives and lawyers whose entire lives are built around gaming the system. That includes most people who are filthy rich. Sadly, the road to the upper stratosphere is crowded with backstabbing liars, who don't even like each others company.

The welfare cheats don't bother me nearly as much as the sneaky, low down and dirty tactics of the banks and the insurance companies, or the entire investment industry that GW slipped a trillion dollars before he left office.

These are the real cheats.

Then there are the hostile, leveraged corporate buyouts that steal peoples lives, and ship everything they have done overseas for cheap labor.

Don't get fooled by the sleight of hand, and get too busy watching the pennies that go to the poor, while the super rich steal trillions.

reply to post by ZombieOctopus


Yeah, we have it good here in the U.S., and that is because we fight for our rights. Most of the third world lives in the situation they are in because the people do not come together and fight for their rights. Too many people only want to do what ever it is that they are told in order to just get by, and that is a big problem.

The fight for freedom continues, and probably always will. There will always be greedy power hungry people trying to steal anything and everything because they want to be in control. Their allies are the people willing to go along with the things they know are wrong, so they can continue getting their small piece of the pie, even if that means screwing other people over.

Yeah, we have it good here in the U.S., but we could, and should, have it so much better.

There is a lot of room for improvement.


[edit on 18-8-2009 by poet1b]

Originally posted by eradown

Originally posted by phoenix103
reply to post by ZombieOctopus

 

Starred and flagged. WELL SAID!

OK, I'm 100% behind Obama, mainly for the reasons you suggest.

To hear the misinformed, morally and educationally bankrupt little redneck racist muppets slagging off countries they don't have a clue about boils my blood.

Those people should hang their ignorant heads in shame. Sadly, I suspect they're too dumb to realise just how wrong they are.

I bet you can't wait to take care of the health of those rednecks (white people). Step in the gas ,er, I mean shower. While you are daydreaming about that glorious day ,go out and dig your own grave. I assure you a fair number of Obama voters will be denide life saving treatments under this plan. I doubt that will matter to you much as long as those red necks (white people) suffer like never before.

[edit on 17-8-2009 by eradown]

I fail to see how I, as a white person can be a racist as is the suggestion of your post.

No, I do not believe in murdering people, not sure what you are basing that false assumption on, would be interested in you explaining that one.

Further, to the mods, if i'm censored for telling a few misinformed people how things are, then i suggest this post be reviewed for its curtosey. I suggest it is against the rules.

Originally posted by eaglehawk
Being an AMERICAN I do not care what your opinion is concerning the policies of OUR country. You may be happy with socialism, I'm happy for you. You have not experienced the true freedom we are used to having because you have not had the privilege of living in the United States. We patriots are not willing to so willing give up our hard fought for freedoms because we know the only way we will get them back is by the shedding of precious blood. If you are willing to compromise so be it. Join the rest of the world. But as for TRUE AMERICANS we choose to keep our freedoms.

Very funny that, given that freedom of speech, thought and democracy - as well as most of culture, art, science and history originated in Europe.

There is no need for you to adopt a misinformed, arrogant, patronising and offensive tone, is there?

reply to post by Pathos


Given the international tone of this site, don't you think citing the biggest warmonger of the 21st century is probably not going to help your case?

Originally posted by dooper
You take care of your problems, and we'll concern ourselves with our own.

If only. Since when has the US minded its own business?

Hell, even in this argument you have to attack other nations to make a point.

Originally posted by ZombieOctopus
I can't take it anymore, America in intellectually bankrupt. Americans have absolutely no concept of how good they have it ....

I am not a supporter of Barack Obama, nor many of his policies, but he was and still is, the lesser of two evils.

And you think THIS is an intellectual way to vote a President into office? THIS is the reason why our country is in the mess it is! My fellow Americans need to stop believing you can ONLY vote for D or R. Quite honestly, they are the same party with a different mascot.

America is not the only country in the world, what you say does reach people outside of your boarders and quite frankly a large chunk of you come off as children, and that's being generous.

you people must live inside a bubble of propaganda, ....

No kidding! Really? We need an 'outsider' to tell us that?

The vast majority of us would probably even get shot in the face ourselves in defending America from foreign aggressors, I would.

Then why is it so easy for terrorists to enter Canada, thereby creating a need for USA to tighten the CA/USA borders? (If we haven't, we should!)

This being the case, why are we the ones looked down upon and vilified as communists and fascists? Some of you should think long and hard about that before posting something stupid.

Too late. You already did.

Is it really us, or is it what you're being led to believe? Think.

You're telling us we feed into our own govt's propoganda. We don't really know what going on in the world. That we're stupid. And NOW you want us to "think". What an oxymoron.

This post isn't just for Canadians, it's for all the nations around the world tired of Americans talking down to them and their way of life. We're tired of your crap America, and we won't bite our lips anymore.

I live in Las Vegas. We have a lot of people from around the world come here to visit and play. Including many Canadians. My opinion of other countries is formed by what the natives of that land share with me. Some are happy, but many are not and would love to live in the USA to have some of the freedoms we appear to have.

And if we talk down to you and your way of life . . . maybe it's BECAUSE we realize how GREAT we have it. Therefore, your comment:

Americans have absolutely no concept of how good they have it ....

... contradicts your closing argument.

Do you honestly think any American gives a crap about what a Canadian thinks of us? You don't know very much for sure. To put all Americans in the Yankee catagory is way off base first of all. Second, I am sorry that 50% of Americans DO NOT WANT the government telling us what doctors to see and what medicine to take. Have you read the bill? Do you have half a clue what you are talking about.
Do you know that there are many Canadians that disapprove of your soicalized healthcare? You are not the majority. Let us as Americans figure this out, like you said Americans lead the way for the rest of the world...... See we get it right long before anybody else does. One Canadians opinion means nothing to me and for many others I am sure. People from other countries need not worry about us, worry about yourself and paying half your income in taxes. We will figure out what to do with our money!

Originally posted by Nivcharah
[Then why is it so easy for terrorists to enter Canada, thereby creating a need for USA to tighten the CA/USA borders? (If we haven't, we should!)

Terrorists?! No way?! You cannot be serious!

You do realise that by this constant and persistent fear of terrorism you're actually doing the work of these "terrorists" for them.

Why attack when you're all peeing your pants now?

As far as I and many, many others are concerned, when someone brings the terrorism aspect into an argument, they've already lost.

Originally posted by Victoria 1
Do you honestly think any American gives a crap about what a Canadian thinks of us? You don't know very much for sure. To put all Americans in the Yankee catagory is way off base first of all. Second, I am sorry that 50% of Americans DO NOT WANT the government telling us what doctors to see and what medicine to take. Have you read the bill? Do you have half a clue what you are talking about.
Do you know that there are many Canadians that disapprove of your soicalized healthcare? You are not the majority. Let us as Americans figure this out, like you said Americans lead the way for the rest of the world...... See we get it right long before anybody else does. One Canadians opinion means nothing to me and for many others I am sure. People from other countries need not worry about us, worry about yourself and paying half your income in taxes. We will figure out what to do with our money!

For starters, any citizen of the world should care how others view them. The world doesn't end at a border you know?

Secondly, there are very few people who even THINK about healthcare in the UK (and presumably Canada) as we KNOW it is there and don't have to give it a second thought.

Third, we DO NOT pay anything like 50% tax. Personally, I estimate all of my deductions are 15-20% max for the last 12 months. So don't use that argument, it doesn't hold water.

Sorry to burst this bubble for you, the US does not lead the rest of the world in anything except warfare and economic decline.

And if you didn't want the rest of the world responding to the flawed points made about its healthcare provision, you shouldn't have used it as a political football, should you?

Tell you what, y'all mind your own business and you'll find the rest of us aren't really interested in these internal policies of your country.

Originally posted by ZombieOctopus
I can't take it anymore, America in intellectually bankrupt. Americans have absolutely no concept of how good they have it and are even more ignorant (if that's possible) of even the simplest government policies of their neighbors.

Your opinions are based on what? Firsthand conversations with Americans or from our media accounts? The average american thinks they get real news from our media which really does nothing other than spew propaganda from the government and multination corporations. To actually stay informed in the US one must troll the web incessantly and read news from other countries where there actually is some freedom of the press.

ZombieOctopus: Every time I hear Americans call their president, and worse, their fellow Americans, socialists in a derogatory manor, I cringe and bite my lip.

Americans have been programmed since infancy to think that Communism and Socialism are the same and as such are antithetical to freedom and the so called "American way". Once, America had very strong socialist and communist parties but they have been relentlessly persecuted and demonized. Still, many of us do not think badly of socialism. Jesus was a socialist if one had to put him into any political category.

ZombieOctopus: When the elections in America were still being held,

I know for fact that the US hasn't had a free presidential election since at least 1996 and perhaps earlier. Bush II wasn't elected in 2000, he was appointed by the supreme court. Also with the rise of the electronic voting machines election results have been far easier to manipulate. Nevermind all the voter list purges, caging and general disenfranchisement of minorities in our national elections. Read Greg Palast's Armed Madhouse if you don't believe me.

ZombieOctopus: I hoped that Obama would win because, at the time, he seemed to me as the world's best possible hope for, at the very least, a de-escalation in tensions world round. After he took office, I'll also concede, I was disappointed in his lack of initiative. He said he would end the "war on terror" and he's done nothing of the sort. If anything he's scaling it up and taken Canadian and British troops, amoung many others, with him on his fruitless, imperialist conquests. I am not a supporter of Barack Obama, nor many of his policies, but he was and still is, the lesser of two evils.

Many here were hopeful that when the Democrats took the midterm elections and made Pelosi speaker of the house that things would change. Not so, the Democrats went right along with everything Bush wanted and nothing changed. The illusion is that the republican party and the democratic party soemhow differ. They don't. They both work for the real PTB (multinational corporations/banks). Just look at the bank bailouts of last year.

ZombieOctopus: If some Americans disagree with that stance, that's fine, you have a right to disagree that's what's so great about living in a free nation.

Free nation? You're talking about the United States? Most Americans are still not aware of this but since Sept.14, 2001 the US has been run by the "shadow goverment". On that day Bush II declared a National State of emergency which has NOT BEEN RESCINDED. Indeed we are even under laws that have been made that neither the public nor the congress are even aware of. See this thread - www.abovetopsecret.com...

ZombieOctopus: Talking about nations with public health care and other services as if they're fascist dictatorships teetering on collapse; you people must live inside a bubble of propaganda, you have no idea what you're talking about

Well, I can't disagree with that except to say that some Americans live outside of the propaganda bubble and actually do know what we're talking about.

ZombieOctopus: We're tired of your crap America, and we won't bite our lips anymore.

We're tired of it too! Tired of the Imperialist agenda, tired of the consumer society, tired of the falseness of it all. Please don't discount Americans by what you see from our media - that isn't representative of any reality but merely a projection of what they want us (and you) to believe. Sad thing is you fell for it too! BTW, I have a great love of the Canadian people and the land. Canadians are kind, considerate and helpful and the countryside is simply spectacular. Were I not committed to staying here and trying to make a difference I would glady move to Canada. But please do your best to keep the black flies up there! lol. regards.



fixed quote tags

[edit on 18/8/09 by masqua]

This is the problem; the vast majority of Americans do no traveling out of the US. Alls you have to do is visit Tijuana to see what you have. However, I think it was Stalin who wrote that Socialism is only one step short of Communism. It is the idea that government is there to feed you milk from her teat. In America, governments job is explicitly delineated in the Constitution, which the Communists are near changeing with two more states calling for a Const. Convention. Then they can also allow an illegal alien in as president, unelected, for life. Also known as a dictator. The biggest terrorist organization in America today is the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT. Of the elite, by the elite, and against the people. Quite simple, actually. There will be another civil war, if the star Nemesis does not show up to forestall it. And I doubt that war because of Biblical prophesy. The weather changes are a direct result of the suns change in emmissions, probably precipitated by the gravity from that incoming star. It won't be the biggest story in history, it has happend before. But those visits, collectively, are probably up there.

reply to post by phoenix103

I don't see where they said anything about 50% taxation. But, if you combine all the govt budgets, and take THAT as a percentage of GNP, you get 75%. THAT is our tribute.

Originally posted by phoenix103

Originally posted by eradown

Originally posted by phoenix103
reply to post by ZombieOctopus

 

Starred and flagged. WELL SAID!

OK, I'm 100% behind Obama, mainly for the reasons you suggest.

To hear the misinformed, morally and educationally bankrupt little redneck racist muppets slagging off countries they don't have a clue about boils my blood.

Those people should hang their ignorant heads in shame. Sadly, I suspect they're too dumb to realise just how wrong they are.

I bet you can't wait to take care of the health of those rednecks (white people). Step in the gas ,er, I mean shower. While you are daydreaming about that glorious day ,go out and dig your own grave. I assure you a fair number of Obama voters will be denide life saving treatments under this plan. I doubt that will matter to you much as long as those red necks (white people) suffer like never before.

[edit on 17-8-2009 by eradown]

I fail to see how I, as a white person can be a racist as is the suggestion of your post.

No, I do not believe in murdering people, not sure what you are basing that false assumption on, would be interested in you explaining that one.

Further, to the mods, if i'm censored for telling a few misinformed people how things are, then i suggest this post be reviewed for its curtosey. I suggest it is against the rules.

I deliberately went out of my way not to insult you personally. Your attitude towards our poor white people deserved to be trashed though. You were encouraging people on this side of the border to hurt the poor rednecks as if they needed to be encouraged. You obviously do not think our red necks are the same species as you much less race.

Originally posted by badgerprints

Originally posted by buddhasystem

Again and again, this flies against the fact, i.e. health care in Europe ain't shabby and costs much less... Your point?

My point is that this is NOT Europe.

The US GOVERNMENT IS NOT CAPABLE OF MAKING ANYTING LESS COSTLY.

Nor do they care to do so.

It is simple fact.

Get past your idealistic ideas and look at the reality of what is going on.

The congress makes decisions based on lobby money and partisan agenda.

Mostly on lobby money.

If healthcare cost less then the politicians make less lobby money and big pharma loses. There is no reducing of healthcare costs in this agenda. It simply adds more red tape and expense and shifts the extra cost to the taxpayers who already are overburdened by the cost of the present system.

IT DOES NOT REDUCE COST. IT INCREASES COST.

Very well put!

However, be aware that corporate Europe is, and has been, doing it's utter best to force, via The EU parliament, the American system upon Europeans. It worked for The Netherlands, who's governments have always exelled in "spinelessness" .The average premium for healthcare-insurance tripled, the moment "socialized" ("Ziekenfonds" in Dutch)->Sickness co-op fund, roughly translated.) medicine was kicked out and the insurers had their way "because the market heals all.." Did it improve? NO! Suddenly the insurers(!!!) rationed the GP's time for a patient to 10 minutes max. Any longer? PAY!! Waiting-times exploded. I had to wait ,blind as a bat, 5 months!! for a cornea-transplant, because private-paying patients got the cornea's from the donors first... On the other hand, It didn't cost me a penny when I eventually got my sight back...

My base-insurance tripled though, and I pay taxes over my health insurance too!

The insurers even tried to get their foot between the door at the medical universities that were involved in Drug-research, so the most expensive option would be mandatory. Luckily, the Rectore Magnifici (Dunno the english term for it) booted the corporations out with such a hard kick to the vernaculars, that they walked like cowboys for weeks..... The insurers and big Pharma (BASF!!) tried again with all kinds of shady scholarship-like constructions, half-bribes, semi-funding of research etc. etc.. And were rebutted again&again(Dutchies apparently can be quite stubborn if their mind is set...heh..)

Luckily the government's controlling board(The sc. "1e-kamer" sort of like congress-elders), got wind from the shenanigans, and they screwed the regulation thumbscrews so tight, the insurers' heads spun, and the corporations could do nothing but regret their own greedy meddling. It backfired very badly for them. State Regulations are very strict now, and to the naked eye, Dutch healthcare-insurance is indistiguishable from the "socialist" option, yet completely corporate-run. If the insurers don't play ball, they are simply excluded from bidding for insurance contracts..works like a charm.

So, what I am trying to say is, there is a grey segment between Corporate health - insurance and the single-payer, state-funded one. It has, however, to be controlled by strict regulation.

In the end it worked out well for The Dutch. The average Dutchman pays about €130,- a month for FULL coverage, Dentist&glasses&hapto-therapy&whateven one wants to top-off ones insurance with (even sjaman-healing if so inclined, I am not joshin' ya!!)

[edit on 18-8-2009 by diakrite]edited for glaring typo's and moronic spelling Darn..mind must be asleep.





[edit on 8/18/2009 by diakrite]

Originally posted by schrodingers dog

Originally posted by ZombieOctopus

I can't take it anymore, America in intellectually bankrupt.

Give us some time, most of the world has a few thousand years on us, or nice motherly colonial patronage.

Right now some of us are going through a little

.

Tantrums are part of teenage nations, sorry about that.

Heheheh... very astute observation. Indeed, USA is Young..It is learning, be it at a somewhat slower pace than the citizens of theUSA would like. Europe needed 1000 years of very bloody religious wars and royalty feuds before there was some semblance of peace. The Americans fixed that in the USA in some 200 years. Quite admirable, even though their political system isn't my cup of tea... .

Love Your avatar pic though!

Originally posted by ZombieOctopus

Originally posted by jjkenobi
I for the life of me don't understand why other countries care about or think they should have some influence on health care policy in America.

I'm not interested in changing the Canadian or UK health care system. Why are you so interested in changing mine?





[edit on 17-8-2009 by jjkenobi]

At the end of the day, I don't. Clearly you didn't read my post.

What I care about is American's ignorance towards other nations and their way of doing things. I'm not a fascist or a communist and my government doesn't own me because we have socialized medicine.

When people have a gripe about America from other countries, 9 out of 10 times its due to jealousy. I travel the world a lot. And I laugh at this attitude toward us. It puts a smile on my face to see the jealousy. Though our foreign policy sucks. This nation is still the greatest on the planet. And the most technologically advanced.


[edit on 18-8-2009 by insideNSA]

Originally posted by Victoria 1
Have you read the bill? Do you have half a clue what you are talking about.
Do you know that there are many Canadians that disapprove of your soicalized healthcare? You are not the majority.

edit - sorry about making this all a quote, don't know how to fix it, the words below are my response to the words above. -


Have you read the bill? Which one? (there are six proposals, last I heard) Which one did you have the problem with? Which article of which bill? Seeing as there is no legislature tabled for any of these proposals, do you have half a clue as to what you are talking about?

Do you own a dictionary? Pull it out. Look up the word "socialism." Are you sure you're aware of the difference between that and communism? How about that and socialised healthcare?
Look up "socialised healthcare" Oh, it's not in there? Try "socialized medicine" not in there either? Buy a better dictionary, here's the definition from the oxford dict:

"Socialized Medicine." = American Noun, the provision of hospital or medical care, for all, by means of public funds.

This definition means two things:
1. This is an American definition, an American noun, NO ONE ELSE in the world with such a system considers it, defines it or qualifies it as "Socialism"
2. Read this to get the rest of the jist.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

There are many Canadians who disapprove of our healthcare?
Where? Which ones? Do you mean the ones that show up in republican commercials warning Americans not to tread down the slippery slope of your friends to the north?

Balderdash.
Hogwash.
And many other 19 century words...

the point of this thread continues to be proven true.
the smartest thing anyone here could do is turn off their computer, and go back to sleep.
you aren't going to make any difference awake
you're not really awake


[edit on 18-8-2009 by briantaylor]