Get a clue America

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posted on Aug, 17 2009 @ 09:18 AM
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I can't take it anymore, America in intellectually bankrupt. Americans have absolutely no concept of how good they have it and are even more ignorant (if that's possible) of even the simplest government policies of their neighbors.

Every time I hear Americans call their president, and worse, their fellow Americans, socialists in a derogatory manor, I cringe and bite my lip.

Believe it or not, America is in the minority in being against social initiatives, most notably, health care. The rest of the developed world is not "imploding" under the stress of "socialist rule", we're happy the way things are and in fact we even voted these policies into law, democratically!

Canada, Briton, France, Sweden, etc, etc, etc. are all proud of the governments we've all helped to establish and maintain and I'll be damned if a bunch of Yankees tell me it's all a sham and destined for failure and bankruptcy.

Social democracies are not built on totalitarian rule, we are not slaves to our respective governments and we will not be categorized as such.

All these "Americans" holding up signs of president Obama with a Hitler mustache and equating him with Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot and Hitler himself at these town hall meetings are idiots beyond help. They are not "patriots", they're ignorant morons and this is from someone that really doesn't care if your government is run by democrats, republicans or real fascists at this point.

When the elections in America were still being held, I'll admit, I cared who won. I cared because, like it or not, American policies shape the world and I genuinely care about the welfare of the people of our planet as a whole. I hoped that Obama would win because, at the time, he seemed to me as the world's best possible hope for, at the very least, a de-escalation in tensions world round. After he took office, I'll also concede, I was disappointed in his lack of initiative. He said he would end the "war on terror" and he's done nothing of the sort. If anything he's scaling it up and taken Canadian and British troops, amoung many others, with him on his fruitless, imperialist conquests. I am not a supporter of Barack Obama, nor many of his policies, but he was and still is, the lesser of two evils.

I am in support, however, of Obama's push for socialized health care in America. Not because I'm a brainwashed communist dog, but because I firmly believe that everyone alive deserves the right to medical care whenever they need it, no exceptions. If some Americans disagree with that stance, that's fine, you have a right to disagree that's what's so great about living in a free nation. What's not fine is basically calling those with opposing principles little more than criminals and traitors.

America is not the only country in the world, what you say does reach people outside of your boarders and quite frankly a large chunk of you come off as children, and that's being generous.

After the American elections ended, I told myself I would refrain from getting involved with American politics but some of you make it impossible. Talking about nations with public health care and other services as if they're fascist dictatorships teetering on collapse; you people must live inside a bubble of propaganda, you have no idea what you're talking about

It's pretty damned hard to get a Canadian pissed off at you, but you've done it and I'm not alone, not by a long shot. We may seem like a pinker, junior version of America, but I'm telling you, we'd be just as quick to pick up guns and shoot you in the face as any American would if a foreign nation came over our boarders looking for a fight. The vast majority of us would probably even get shot in the face ourselves in defending America from foreign aggressors, I would. This being the case, why are we the ones looked down upon and vilified as communists and fascists? Some of you should think long and hard about that before posting something stupid.

Is it really us, or is it what you're being led to believe? Think.

This post isn't just for Canadians, it's for all the nations around the world tired of Americans talking down to them and their way of life. We're tired of your crap America, and we won't bite our lips anymore.


[edit on 8/17/2009 by ZombieOctopus]



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posted on Aug, 17 2009 @ 09:22 AM
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I for the life of me don't understand why other countries care about or think they should have some influence on health care policy in America.

I'm not interested in changing the Canadian or UK health care system. Why are you so interested in changing mine?





[edit on 17-8-2009 by jjkenobi]


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posted on Aug, 17 2009 @ 09:25 AM
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Originally posted by jjkenobi
I for the life of me don't understand why other countries care about or think they should have some influence on health care policy in America.

I'm not interested in changing the Canadian or UK health care system. Why are you so interested in changing mine?





[edit on 17-8-2009 by jjkenobi]


At the end of the day, I don't. Clearly you didn't read my post.

What I care about is American's ignorance towards other nations and their way of doing things. I'm not a fascist or a communist and my government doesn't own me because we have socialized medicine.


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posted on Aug, 17 2009 @ 09:26 AM
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reply to post by ZombieOctopus
 


I live in America and I think I can tell you why we seem so crazy. We don't know what to believe anymore. We are bombarded with so many different viewpoints and streams of information it is like we are being overloaded. Do I believe that everyone on this planet deserves to be treated if sick? Yes I do. Do I think that its possible when a majority of our money goes to upholding an empire that occupies more than 200 countries? Who knows. Most Americans don't know who or what to believe at this point. I see it in my family, I see it in strangers that I talk to.

Trust me when I say we are not evil, TPTB just are very good with propaganda and disinformation.



posted on Aug, 17 2009 @ 09:29 AM
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reply to post by bringthelight
 


It's not all of you, it's probably even a minority. The thing is, the minority is 10000x louder than the majority so it appears as though they speak for America as a whole.

I know that isn't true, but I would be willing to wager the majority of the world doesn't.


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posted on Aug, 17 2009 @ 09:30 AM
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reply to post by jjkenobi
 


When Americans start holding up other countries as an example of facist, communist, socialist bad examples, them it gets a bit personal.

Frankly I've had enough of the whole US health care issue, I would vote to ban it from ATS, or restict it to one thread only.

All I know is, IF I'm broke in the UK, I fall over and shatter my spine, and in the subsequent months I develop liver problems, I will be looked after by the NHS for life, have a transplant, and have my house converted and nurses provided, for life, if that's socialist and so terrible. I don't care.

edit to correct terrible grammer!



[edit on 17-8-2009 by kiwifoot]



posted on Aug, 17 2009 @ 09:32 AM
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reply to post by kiwifoot
 


Someone rational! I couldnt agree more! Star for you sir.



posted on Aug, 17 2009 @ 09:34 AM
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Originally posted by ZombieOctopus
reply to post by kiwifoot
 


Someone rational! I couldnt agree more! Star for you sir.


I have a feeling we're both gonna take some flak for this!

But who cares? I really think the issue needs to be restricted to ONE thread (except this one lol!).

Time to get back to more alternative issues.

Good luck!



posted on Aug, 17 2009 @ 10:11 AM
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reply to post by ZombieOctopus
 



If your healthcare plans in your nation are so great, read some of the links in this thread. www.abovetopsecret.com...

Now as far as knocking your nation’s healthcare plans this is why;

We are a nation of 300 Million Plus some; we have a huge illegal immigrant population. A national Healthcare plan would cripple our economy. I do believe there should be some sort of Healthcare reform, but in the means of Regulation against the Insurance companies. If you get sick in America you will get treated, If you are injured you will get treated. However, you will get hit with a fat bill at the end of it all. I believe that is bad, Americans don’t trust there government period, they have bankrupted nearly ever sort of welfare system we have in the country from Medicare to SSI. Quite frankly I don’t trust the bean counters in the government to decide what’s good for me.

I have great insurance if I need surgery I pay $100 for the co-payment; my insurance company foots the rest. I need to see the doctor I pay $20 co-payment. My kids need to go to the E.R I pay $50 for co payment and the Insurance Company covers the rest.

My doctors decide what needs to be done and do it, they submit the bill to the Insurance company and they pay it. I pay co-payment and maybe "various charges" that I dispute always. But it doesn’t bankrupt me, The Government needs to take our current system and overhaul it, not build a new one from scratch.

I like my insurance for my family; I am responsible for them and them only. I am willing to help others who are in need whatever way I can, but leave my insurance and my money alone.

What may work in your countries wont work in ours.


[edit on 17-8-2009 by poedxsoldiervet]


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posted on Aug, 17 2009 @ 10:22 AM
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Personally,
My lack of support for this or any sort of nationalized health care here in the States has absolutely Nothing to do with it being seen as or deemed Socialist, Communist or Any other type-ist, for that matter.

My lack of support is based solely on the clear and demonstrable fact that the US governernment knows only but one way to run Any sort of social program ... straight into the ground.

Social Security - had built up near unfathomable surpluses which have steadily been pilfered away over the past few decades by various administrations any time they needed monies to fund a given (black) project, defense, etc. Of course, those monies were to have been paid back ... but we all know how that goes, went.

Now, just when those same baby boomers, who have paid into that system all their lives, are coming due to start drawing benefits out ... the system is nearly bankrupt.

Medicare? Medicaid? Wash-Rinse-Repeat.

In my opinion,
The US government couldn't run a successful Day Care let alone any sort of Nationalized Health system.

On another note, and perhaps something for a different thread all together...
Given the extent to which the Insurance Co.s, Big Pharma and Big Medical are so obviously and deeply entrenched with well-funded lobbyists on Capital Hill, does any one think for one minute they would be supporting this, OR EVEN allowing it to see the light of day, IF it weren't in one way or another in their best interest(s)? That they would allow it to even reach the point of further discussion, debate? ... if they haven't already figured a means by which to capitalize (profit) off the same?

$.02



posted on Aug, 17 2009 @ 10:25 AM
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Originally posted by 12m8keall2c
Personally,

On another note, and perhaps something for a different thread all together...
Given the extent to which the Insurance Co.s, Big Pharma and Big Medical are so obviously and deeply entrenched with well-funded lobbyists on Capital Hill, does any one think for one minute they would be supporting this, OR EVEN allowing it to see the light of day, IF it weren't in one way or another in their best interest(s)? That they would allow it to even reach the point of further discussion, debate? ... if they haven't already figured a means by which to capitalize (profit) off the same?


That had crossed my mind too.

Damn it, as much as I try to stay out of this whole debacle I find myself getting involved.

NOTE TO SELF, keep big nose out of US helath care reform!!!!


+5 more 
posted on Aug, 17 2009 @ 10:27 AM
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reply to post by 12m8keall2c
 


Gotta agree with my pal 12...

My faith in the ability of govt. to run anything ceased to exist long ago... when a govt. cannot, or maybe will not, keep roads repaired, or educate our children...I'm supposed to hop willy-nilly onto the govt. health care express?

So not happening.

Socialist...fascist...democratic...yadda...yadda...yadda... How about we go with incompetent, bumbling idiots without a lick of common sense, instead...



posted on Aug, 17 2009 @ 10:27 AM
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reply to post by ZombieOctopus
 



I can't take it anymore, America in intellectually bankrupt. Americans have absolutely no concept of how good they have it and are even more ignorant (if that's possible) of even the simplest government policies of their neighbors.

Every time I hear Americans call their president, and worse, their fellow Americans, socialists in a derogatory manor, I cringe and bite my lip.


I'm constantly stunned at people like you and the fact you just now cant take it anymore. Where were you te last 8 years? There were movies made about Bush's assassination. There were art shows that displayed pictures of Bush being killed. There was "Kill Bush" T-shirts sold at stores and on the internet. We had the democrats declaring the Iraq war lost, the media manufacturing outrage every week, but you're only just now having a problem with politics?


OR, is it just that its happening to your guys now? At least you have Hollywood, the MSM and most print media on your side. The last 8 years was just the opposite.



posted on Aug, 17 2009 @ 10:38 AM
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I think it is funny you know who our president is. You really should not. Regardless of whither you love Obama or hate him, he won't help you at all. We in America prefer to mind our own bussiness or maybe we really are too big to ignore.



posted on Aug, 17 2009 @ 10:46 AM
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reply to post by ZombieOctopus
 


Speaking of ignorance...

AMERICA IS A CONSTITUTIONAL REPUBLIC NOT A DEMOCRACY.

Do you even understand what that means??????


+1 more 
posted on Aug, 17 2009 @ 10:54 AM
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Originally posted by poedxsoldiervet
reply to post by ZombieOctopus
 
I have great insurance if I need surgery I pay $100 for the co-payment; my insurance company foots the rest. I need to see the doctor I pay $20 co-payment. My kids need to go to the E.R I pay $50 for co payment and the Insurance Company covers the rest.

My doctors decide what needs to be done and do it, they submit the bill to the Insurance company and they pay it. I pay co-payment and maybe "various charges" that I dispute always. But it doesn’t bankrupt me, The Government needs to take our current system and overhaul it, not build a new one from scratch.

I like my insurance for my family; I am responsible for them and them only. I am willing to help others who are in need whatever way I can, but leave my insurance and my money alone.

What may work in your countries wont work in ours.
[edit on 17-8-2009 by poedxsoldiervet]

First, I'm glad you have good insurance, and have had no problems with them paying when the need arises. But, I must tell you, in my field of business I see people everyday that thought they had good insurance through an honest provider, and yet are being excluded from their policies by something in the fine print, or because of a "pre-existing condition," or simply because the insurance company would rather them have to drag out a legal battle then to simply pay a fair amount right away. Normal visits to the Doctor for you and your kids will almost always be paid to keep you happy, but God forbid, you have a catastrophic illness, they will almost always do everything within their power to leave you and you alone to foot the bill. It is not fair but they are large and you are small, so they do not have to play by the same rules as the rest of us. Health Insurance reform might go along way to level that playing field.

Second, while I agree with your notion that what works for one Country will not necessarily work for another, I also feel that it is statements such as that, are often times misused to cloud the dialogue about the Health Care Reform that is being proposed. "What may work in your countries wont work in ours" seems to be saying 1, that our health care system is working just fine here in America, and 2, that what is being proposed is the same or similar to what they have in Canada and Britain. Both of those statements are inherently false.

I'm afraid that the problem the OP is having is that our media outlets and the talking heads who dominate our news programming have made a nasty habit of making belittling and outright inflammatory statements about our friends and neighbors. Calling Canadian or British health care socialized medicine may be accurate, but so is medicare and medicaid, and the VA, but that does not make them socialist nations. Further, socialism is thrown around with such vitriol these days, it is frighteningly ugly.

It's as if suggesting we reform our health insurance industry, to make the game more fair for all of us, and to try to get as many peoples covered as possible in order to lower the cost that uninsured people have on society as whole, as if that mere suggestion is tantamount to leading a Marxist revolution. There are several reasons to be weary of health care reform, but socialism is not one of them.

As long as we allow our national mouth pieces to alienate our friends and allies by stirring up discontent, as long as we encourage the more ignorant among us to wave banners using Nazi symbols and call each other vile names, as long as we continue these trends, we show the ugliest and least accurate of our many faces to the world. Thus, inevitably diminishing our place in the eyes of that world we so childishly think we're so much better than. Hopefully, our friends like the OP will be able to convince their fellow Countrymen that we're not really all like that.


+12 more 
posted on Aug, 17 2009 @ 10:54 AM
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Hmm. Never one to run away from a good anonymous argument.


I don't see that what's going on in America is any of your business, if you don't live here.

So many times I have heard complaints when an American claims that the US affects the rest of the world. The US gets bashed for being ignorant, arrogant. Seems like a little bit of a double standard.

I will be the first to admit (okay, well the first THIS minute) that most Americans really don't know, or CARE about what it really means to be socialist. It is pounded in to our heads at an early age that any government that is anything besides 'democratic' is 'evil.' (Regardless of the fact that we aren't really a democracy anyway) After all, that was really the reason for WWII, Viet Nam, Korean Conflict...that was all about Communism. And we Americans KNOW that Socialism is just a fancy way of saying Communism. We know all about that Communism stuff, and we don't cotton to that. That dog won't hunt. The truth is, we DON'T 'know.' What we THINK we know is what has been beaten into our heads through our wonderful educational system and it's 'two dollar whore,' the MSM.

The citizens of this nation that are protesting 'healthcare reform' aren't REALLY protesting THAT at all. I know that's what everyone says, and people might even believe it when they are actually AT the town hall meetings protesting, saying that they don't want 'socialists' medicine.

What the people are really protesting is the collapse of our nation. The awakening from our decades long slumber. If we can keep everything the same, then we can all still sleep at night and watch our favorite shows on television and everything will be just fine. As long as I can go to Wally World and buy my 99 Cent piece of imported crap that I can sell at my own garage sale next summer for 25 cents, everything is great.

Americans suffer from a lack of flexibility. We want things OUR way, and we want them right now. (I know there are those who are more in tune with reality, but I don't think ten percent of us are there) We want healthcare the way it is, because that is what we know. When you go changing something on us, we get scared and when we get scared, we get angry. It is always much easier for us to lash out in anger than it is to accept, or heaven forbid, ADMIT that we are afraid.

Your OP almost seems worded to elicit anger from Americans. I bought in to it for an instant. My first thought was to defend our great nation by stating all the things we have all been programmed to think about all the other nations in the world that just don't 'live up' to what we have here in America. I'll spare you.
Suffice it to say that most Americans have a very strong nationalistic opinion based on the programming we have received that at one point or another throughout history, America has 'saved the ass' of just about every other nation in the world. 'It it wasn't for US, you would all be speaking German, or Japanese right now!' It's easy to see and understand the arrogance and misinformation, but it is very prevalent and deeply rooted in our national ideals.

In a way, we're not much different than the folks in North Korea. We want desperately to be free, but freedom for us is usually death. The reality is that although we like to believe we are 'free,' we really aren't. We've been trapped for years and years in the propaganda that is the 'American Dream.' We don't really even truly ever OWN anything here in the US. If we miss our taxes, everything can be seized. It doesn't really belong to us. But still 'owning' your own home, car and stuff is what so many think is the goal of this nation. Freedom and greed make difficult bedfellows.

If we can keep our neighborhoods one color, we can be safe. If we have 2.5 kids, a house, a job, two cars, an X-box and a microwave, we are productive members of society. Our worth to our nation has been based not on how we have advanced the causes of humanity, but on what we can produce and what we can consume.

I have a great deal of respect for you guys, especially you, Kiwi.
But calling us out for protesting, or trying to understand what's going on in our national consciousness probably isn't the best way to foster good relations. We are many years behind the curve of the rest of the world when it comes to being good stewards of our resources and thoughtful members of a global community. We are, after all, a very young nation by global standards. A young nation, made up of young people. If not physically, certainly philosophically. We're the teenage son, or daughter of the world. We're full of angst and rebelling for the sake of rebelling, why? We simply just don't understand how we are supposed to behave. We want independence, but we still want mom and dad to pay the bills.

So guys, don't let it bother you too much. We're going to moan. We're going to kick and scream every inch of the way. We don't WANT to clean our room, we don't WANT to take out the garbage and we don't WANT to get a haircut and a 'real' job.

If it really gets your dander up, please just let us go out in the world and make our own mistakes. When we get to be a little older, I can guarantee you that you will seem a lot smarter THEN, than you do now.

As far as limiting the number of threads, or banning the topic....How can you expect to allow us to grow into mature, responsible adults if you're not willing to allow us a venue for communication? We have a great deal of thinking, growing and making mistakes to do. Rather than condemn us for not living up to your expectations of discussion, how about trying to guide us with a gentle, yet firm hand, so that maybe some day we can reach the level of understanding that many of you others possess. We are a young nations and a young people. Now more than ever, we need the help and example of our older siblings, if we can ever hope to be something other than the bothersome little brother, blowing snot bubbles with his nose at the dinner table.


+7 more 
posted on Aug, 17 2009 @ 10:56 AM
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Originally posted by eradown
I think it is funny you know who our president is. You really should not. Regardless of whither you love Obama or hate him, he won't help you at all. We in America prefer to mind our own bussiness or maybe we really are too big to ignore.


Thanks, I really needed that laugh.

You are so right, the US is a beacon of independence, a shining example of a country concentrating on their own issues, of not interfering in the running of other nations, of not forcing it's will on the rest of the world, history is brimming with the peaceful message of US non-involvment in the business of independent-nation-states, you should be very insulted that heaven forbid the rest of the world may have an opinion on you for a change.


Do you really have such a idealistic, holy notion of yourself?

I have to sit down, the laughter is killing me.



posted on Aug, 17 2009 @ 11:02 AM
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reply to post by kiwifoot
 
No country is perfect from what I hear not even Canada. You are in no position to help us improve our country, so perhaps you should climb off your high horse.



posted on Aug, 17 2009 @ 11:03 AM
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reply to post by ZombieOctopus
 


you know what i'm tired of???

gross generalizations.

enough said.





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