Canadian Healthcare System "Imploding"

Regarding all this stuff about Vancouver/BC cuts, you've got to understand the situation in this (insane to the point I'm surprised the rest of the country hasn't asked us to leave) province.

We had 10 years of Mr. Dix's party (NDP - think actual socialists not the type you generally think of Canadians as) in power, which almost bankrupted us. We've had to cut everything in order to balance the books again. They are doing everyhthing they can to get back into power (which isn't going to happen, we're not that stupid) and the unions are where they get their (only) votes from.

We've also got the Olympics coming and if there are cuts (which I believe there might well be), that's the real reason behind them. Not lack of funding, but a silly attempt to make us look good to the rest of the world. All of our money is being funnelled into those stupid games.

Basically, we get this same story from them every year and still, nothing has imploded.

Originally posted by Syphon
The folks who are less economically fortunate than yourself are no less "ethical" in their work habits or lazy or what ever other insult you want to toss their way. The simple fact of the matter is there isn't enough room at the top for everyone. If you managed to worm your way up the ladder, consider yourself lucky. The wealthy would be no where without the "lazy" people doing all of the work for them.

You are wrong.

I am an employer. I encourage advancement (it lessens the burden on me).

I pay an above-average wage. No one here has to "worm their way to the top." Ambition is a good thing.

I provide benefits, including healthcare.

There are many "less ethical" (your words) people who choose not to take this route.

That is not my problem. I WILL NOT pay for their well-being.

If you will, please send your check to your representative.

U2U me, and I will give you the address. You won't, will you? I dare you.

Post a copy of your check to prove your sincerity, or leave your piety in church.

jw

reply to post by jdub297


The way that I see it, nothing is ever perfect, so you keep trying to improve on it. Use of sensationalist language, makes people perk up their ears and pay attention. We have a problem up here with voter apathy. People just really don't care what goes on in politics. We seem to have the same problem as the States, but deal with it in opposite manners. Both voting populations KNOW that the government no longer had their best interests at heart anymore, Americans get mad and try to change it, we get mad and just stop caring.

When they use the words "imploding" it gives you the sense that the health care system is in dire straights and needs immediate attention. That is not exactly the truth. It needs some cleaning up and polishing, but not a complete overhaul. Think more preventative maintenance. With the Baby Boomers getting to the age where they are going to be needing more and care, they want to look at the system and see how they can leverage newer technologies to make the system run smoother, and be more capable of handling the expected burden. The same thing is probably happening in the States with insurance companies, just behind closed and not airing their laundry.

Now as far as our system goes. I don't really see anything wrong with it. Everyone in the South seems to bemoan our wait times. That seems to be the one constant argument against our system. I would like to see proof that our wait times are any worse than the ones in the US. Any emergency procedure is done immediately. Anything non life threatening and you might have to wait a bit. I have never heard of anyone having to wait over a year for standard procedures.

The one thing I have witnessed that could be fixed is the number of doctors available. That I would place the blame on the US for. Now I don't mean that viciously at all. Why stay up here and make $250,000 a year, when you can just go a couple hours south and make over a million. It just makes common sense and I can't fault anyone for making that choice.

Originally posted by centurion1211

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck

Originally posted by centurion1211
Even you must realize that everything that ever gets done starts from a plan that "may get done", or not.

And not everything that comes from a plan gets done...I bring up Northwoods where we dealt with this (already).

So, it doesn't trouble you at all that they are even considering doing this, or are you simply one of those defend it (whatever it is) at all costs no matter what the facts are types? We still have a few "my president - right or wrong" types down here, too. No one usually pays them much attention. Work that way in canada, too?

Guess you'll simply have to read what I already posted on just that subject.

Originally posted by Rook1545
Why stay up here and make $250,000 a year, when you can just go a couple hours south and make over a million. It just makes common sense and I can't fault anyone for making that choice.

I'll fault them for making that choice. When Canada stops subsidising medical school and they pay the full freight and not 50% of their education, they can go wherever they please. Until then, they are soaking the taxpayers.

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck
And not everything that comes from a plan gets done...I bring up Northwoods where we dealt with this (already).

And don't we Americans have the right, if not the obligation, to point out the flaws in a flawed 'plan'?

You surely can't be suggesting that US citizens should just accept what their gov't. tells them is true, or in their best interest? Do Canucks do that?
How does this involve you, anyway?

jw

Originally posted by intrepid
Our system works by and large. It could be better but there's not much wrong with it.

Good. I wish you well with 'your system.'

I do not want it. Obama does not want it (he has said). Yet, many here point to it as our ideal.

This newspaper article is both relevant and probative, therefore admissable.

Anything else, take up with the publisher.

jw

[edit on 18-8-2009 by jdub297]

Originally posted by jdub297
How does this involve you, anyway?jw

Silly Yankee....

You right wingers are pointing to aberrations in our system and setting them up as the straw man with which to fight the last...the former...election. And you expect us to lie down for it. Sorry...none of the Canadians responding on this thread are backing you up.

Further, y'all would be a lot better off coming up with a better plan all by yourselves instead of simmering in bile because you got shut out of the last election, and having a Monty Python style debate with anybody who doesn't share your politics. At home or abroad.

How does this involve me? Read the heading of the post. Deny Ignorance, me fine arse!

Originally posted by jdub297
This newspaper article is both relevant and probative, therefore admissable.
Anything else, take up with the publisher.

Edit to say that you are wrong, the article in question is biased and inflammatory. I don't buy any of the Sun chain (or His Lardship's National Post) for that very reason, and that is what I told the publisher when I finally canceled the Sunday Sun.

[edit on 18-8-2009 by JohnnyCanuck]

Originally posted by jdub297
This newspaper article is both relevant and probative, therefore admissable.

Anything else, take up with the publisher.

jw

[edit on 18-8-2009 by jdub297]

No, it's slanted and inaccurate. You can do that with Google. Are we to assume because Manitoba doctor's still make house calls that we have the best care in the world? No, it's just as slanted and inaccurate.

Originally posted by intrepid

Originally posted by jdub297
reply to post by intrepid

 

Tell me what your idea of US healthcare should be. In at least an outline form.

I really don't care as it doesn't affect me in the least.

Mr. Moderator, please give us guidance.

jw

I'm not qualified to discuss this because I'm a staffer

Then stay the ---- out.

You choose not to "engage," but to troll. What a waste of ATS resources.
jw

[edit on 18-8-2009 by jdub297]

Originally posted by jdub297

Originally posted by Syphon
The folks who are less economically fortunate than yourself are no less "ethical" in their work habits or lazy or what ever other insult you want to toss their way. The simple fact of the matter is there isn't enough room at the top for everyone. If you managed to worm your way up the ladder, consider yourself lucky. The wealthy would be no where without the "lazy" people doing all of the work for them.

You are wrong.

I am an employer. I encourage advancement (it lessens the burden on me).

I pay an above-average wage. No one here has to "worm their way to the top." Ambition is a good thing.

I provide benefits, including healthcare.

There are many "less ethical" (your words) people who choose not to take this route.

That is not my problem. I WILL NOT pay for their well-being.

If you will, please send your check to your representative.

U2U me, and I will give you the address. You won't, will you? I dare you.

Post a copy of your check to prove your sincerity, or leave your piety in church.

jw

You miss the point entirely. We cannot have an economy that is comprised of only CEO's. There have to be workers, you know the ones who aren't at the top. There are always going to be people who have less and those who have more. The ones who do have more made it off of the backs of those who have less. Do you honestly think that there are 200+ million top tier jobs to be had in America?

Now it's my turn to completely miss a point. WTH are you asking me for? A cheque to my representative? Woosh, right over my head. Please clarify.

You are rediculous.

reply to post by jdub297


I have just realized that you really don't want a rational discussion on this. You just want to point out to us that our system sucks, yours is the bees knees, haha take that you socialist hosers.

You complain when people deride you for your commentary, saying you want to hear what we think. When you get a legitimate, thought out response, it goes unacknowledged and you climb right back on the people who don't agree with you. You sir, are wasting resources.

Originally posted by jdub297

I'm not qualified to discuss this because I'm a staffer

Then stay the 1234 out.

Selective quoting dude. I will NOT stay out as long as someone maligns one of the best health care systems in the world. I know you would like this ignorance to go unchallenged but that's not going to happen.

You choose not to "engage," but to troll. What a waste of ATS resources.
jw

Bringing facts, truth and logic to a topic is "trolling"? Deal with the logic please and lay off using terms that you obviously know nothing about.

Originally posted by jdub297

Originally posted by intrepid
I'm not qualified to discuss this because I'm a staffer

Then stay the 1234 out.

You choose not to "engage," but to troll. What a waste of ATS resources.
jw

OK, that's just a ridiculous example of cherry picking a post. Come one......

What he actually said:

Originally posted by intrepid
I'm not qualified to discuss this because I'm a staffer, seems important to you though

, I'm qualified because I'm Canadian and I know how our system works.

Seriously.

I'm with him. Canadians know more about our system, just as American's know more about theirs. If you don't want to hear what we say, fine - but don't use us as the boogeyman in the arguments against a US program.

[edit on 18-8-2009 by Duzey]

What Dr. Doig's replacement as President of the CMA has to say:

www.theglobeandmail.com...

The CMA's current and previous presidents have supported a bigger presence of private or parallel medicine alongside Canada's public system, but Dr. Turnbull is a strong opponent of two-tier health care.

He said his election means "that the doctors of Ontario, at least - and I think the doctors of Ontario are representative of doctors in the rest of the country - feel that there is a desperate need for meaningful change in the way we deliver medical services.

"But they want to see that done in the context of the publicly funded health-care system. They don't want to move to a two-tiered system. If I can bring anything [to the CMA president's job], it's a cohesive vision of health care that everyone can buy into."

So which one is right? The one who says what you want to hear.

Originally posted by Syphon
There are always going to be people who have less and those who have more. The ones who do have more made it off of the backs of those who have less.

I have never stepped on anyone to get where I am. I have never made anything "off the backs" of anyone.

If someone wants to work for me, for a decent wage and benefits, they can ask. If they perform as promised, they are rewarded. That's EXACTLY how I started.


You purport to support the idea that capitalism thrives at people's expense.
Many people are happy to live of the government and others' largesse.
Solve their "suffering" by giving them your money. Now.

jw

[edit on 18-8-2009 by jdub297]

Originally posted by Rook1545
reply to post by jdub297

 

I have just realized that you really don't want a rational discussion on this. You just want to point out to us that our system sucks, yours is the bees knees, haha take that you socialist hosers.

You haven't read this thread or links.

I DETEST the U.S. system. It is a scam. It is broken.

I detest the idea that Canada's system is better. It is not.

Simple, really.

You really haven't read my posts; that's obvious. Want a serious discussion? Want a viable alternative? U2U, and see what you get.

You do not have the interest or the guts; you are a troll.

jw

Originally posted by jdub297

I detest the idea that Canada's system is better. It is not.

I think you had it right the first time...

You do not have the interest or the guts; you are a troll.

and it seems to me that you are at the point where you are calling anybody who disagrees a troll.

We prefer our system, for all its flaws. Get over it.

Originally posted by intrepid
Bringing facts, truth and logic to a topic is "trolling"? Deal with the logic please and lay off using terms that you obviously know nothing about.

Aren't personal attacks contrary to the ATS ToCs?

All I've done is bring a CANADIAN article to ATS members.

I've drawn no conclusions other than those that can be derived from YOUR press.

YOU have let personal feelings interfere with your objectivity.

Show me anywhere in this thread where I've told anyone what Canada provides. Show me where I've said what your system provides.

You can not.

All I've done is create a link.

Sorry. (not really)

Where in ATS' ToCs does it say I cannot copy a published story title and a relevant "snippet?"

Are you acting as "moderator" or Canuck?

Now, go away.

jw

[edit on 18-8-2009 by jdub297]

Originally posted by jdub297

Originally posted by intrepid
Bringing facts, truth and logic to a topic is "trolling"? Deal with the logic please and lay off using terms that you obviously know nothing about.

Aren't personal attacks contrary to the ATS ToCs?

Not an attack, truth. You call anyone that disagrees with you, most successfully at that, a troll.

All I've done is bring a CANADIAN article to ATS members.

I've drawn no conclusions other than those that can be derived from YOUR press.

In case you missed the point:

Originally posted by intrepid

Originally posted by jdub297
This newspaper article is both relevant and probative, therefore admissable.

Anything else, take up with the publisher.

jw

[edit on 18-8-2009 by jdub297]

No, it's slanted and inaccurate. You can do that with Google. Are we to assume because Manitoba doctor's still make house calls that we have the best care in the world? No, it's just as slanted and inaccurate.

Are you acting as "moderator" or Canuck?

As an ATS member denying ignorance.

Now, go away.

jw

[edit on 18-8-2009 by jdub297]

Why? Logic and truth bother you? Trust me mate, I'm going nowhere. I WILL continue to challenge this BS with logic though.