Canadian Healthcare System "Imploding"

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck
Guess you'd better give me names of the folks that aren't allowed to get cancer medicines...medicines that American public health would cover.

Everybody has been telling you yet for some reason you ignore them. For example, here is just one of many, many examples.

The Ugly Truth About Canadian Health Care

And we do a little research up here

Exactly, a LITTLE.

This thread is full of Americans telling us how badly off we are, and Canadians saying you don't have a clue.

Exactly, because you refuse to accept the truth because the government has actually made you believe having them take care of you is a good thing.

Most Americans despise sucking on the government nipple which is why government healthcare is a bad idea.

Originally posted by For(Home)Country

Don't you realize that taxes spent wisely is quite possibly the most important thing people need to work together?

That's quite the point, our government steadfastly REFUSES to spend taxes wisely, or in the way we intend for them to be spent, because of lobbying interests for the big corps. influencing everything they do.

We need to drag the whole lot to the gallows kicking and screaming, or alternately starve them out.

Originally posted by astrij
Never heard of this before.

I don't know where you heard this nonsense, however it is simply untrue.

Really??
Perhaps you should get out more.
See my post at the top of this page for one of many, many examples.

[edit on 8/17/2009 by WhatTheory]

Originally posted by WhatTheory
Most Americans despise sucking on the government nipple which is why government healthcare is a bad idea.

That is an opinion I can respect even while I don't understand it. The rest is right wing disinfo.

Like I said, do what you want...but don't go telling us how things are up here when you don't know squat. You're just making noise to scare Democrats.

$32 to cure cancer. Beat that!

I should mention that Canadians can get a license to smoke marijuana for health related reasons and the Americans arrested over 700,000 people last year for having it.

Thats just another example of how messed up the American system is.

[edit on 17-8-2009 by Wormwood Squirm]

I think it's dumb if canadians want to imitate the imploding american system. They should follow the chinese system, have a lot of savings, and when you got ill, go have a medical tour abroad.

add: about following the chinese system, I was joking btw, seriously. Go have a medical tour abroad, see, that's the clue.

Although, I have to say, having a lot of savings isn't that bad of an idea at all.

[edit on Mon, 17 Aug 09 by Jazzyguy]

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck
The rest is right wing disinfo.

You are entitled to your wrong opinion. More like right wing fact.

Like I said, do what you want

Don't worry, I will.

but don't go telling us how things are up here when you don't know squat. You're just making noise to scare Democrats.

I know exactly how things are up there. You are living in denial but that is ok.

$32 to cure cancer. Beat that!

I already did. It's funny how you said provide proof of my claims and I did with my first post of this page and yet you ignore it.

I gave you some proof to thwart your fantasy world and you have nothing to say about it. Your silence speaks volumes.

Oh, and please elaborate on this $32 claim so I can debunk it. Are you saying that you have only paid $32 over your entire life into the canadian healthcare system? If not, then your figure is bogus.

[edit on 8/17/2009 by WhatTheory]

Yer I luv Australia's NH it's pretty bloody good as far as I concerned but we also have private insurance as well .Having both seems the way to go!

Yep National Health system kicks arse!

[edit on 17-8-2009 by MOTT the HOOPLE]

reply to post by spitefulgod


Err, actually you are in worse straights than we are.

As i remember correctly, among the many things your government has done, police officers in Canada can now take your property if they can convince a Canadian judge that "something is not right".

Cops can now ‘take all your stuff’


How did this happen in Canada? Given the recent spate of incidents where various police services have been observed perjuring themselves and destroying evidence (the Robert Dziekanski trial also comes to mind), it’s clear that this is a frontal assault on Canadian liberty. When you factor in the fact that ‘anti-terror’ law in Canada has shot holes in the concept of personal intention by jettisoning the concept of mens rea, your assets may even be seized if someone in your social circle is found guilty of a crime on or around your property. This must be addressed immediately by any honest legal eagles as may still exist in Canadian jurisprudence.

Update (2009/04/23): Wait a minute! - is this why police stations are preparing to have on-staff prosecutors?

Flashback: Entrapment becoming standard procedure for police | Ottawa moves to toughen anti-gang laws | Schools seek more police as crime drops | Ontario to place prosecutors in police stations | Tory ‘Guilty before proven innocent’ law to make debut in court | Perjury: Is it different for cops? | Justice Critic Brands Street Racing Vehicle Seizure Law as “Police State-ism”

Mindelle Jacobs, Toronto Sun
April 21, 2009

There have been some terrible miscarriages of justice due to proceeds of crime legislation in other countries.

Whether Canada will do better remains to be seen.

To the surprise of at least one legal expert, the Supreme Court of Canada last week unanimously gave the provinces incredible powers to seize assets allegedly connected to crime.

For a country that has gained the reputation, whether deserved or not, of protecting the rights of the accused over the rights of victims, it’s quite an about-face.

As one worried reader e-mailed the other day: “This is a terrifying development. If the police even suspect you of a crime, they can take all your stuff. They don’t have to prove it.”

Is he right? “Yes and no,” says University of Manitoba law professor Michelle Gallant. The cops can take your car, for instance, if they think you’re using it to sell drugs.

But the police have to persuade a judge that, on a balance of probabilities, the vehicle is connected to crime. And that’s much easier to show than providing evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that someone is guilty of a crime.

statismwatch.ca...

That's just one of the many thins that are worse in Canada, than in the U.S., even though it seems we are not far behind you.


[edit on 17-8-2009 by ElectricUniverse]

Originally posted by Jazzyguy
I think it's dumb if canadians want to imitate the imploding american system. They should follow the chinese system, have a lot of savings, and when you got ill, go have a medical tour abroad.

Sure...Canadians should follow the Chinese system... Tax evasion? bullet to the head...

You have enough drugs on you that you can be seen as a dealer? bullet to the head....

You are wrongfully accussed of a crime? bullet to the head..

You are too democratic, and you keep protesting in the streets?.... bullet to the head...

You are too religious?.... you get harrassed by Chinese government/police thugs, and imprisoned, and eventually you get a bullet to the head.

And then of course all the organs from the tens of thousands of Chinese which are executed every year are sold in the black market, which brings a lot of money to China, so they look forward to puting more bullets in the head of good Chinese people....

So yeah, maybe the Canadians should emulate the Chinese government....



[edit on 17-8-2009 by ElectricUniverse]

Originally posted by WhatTheory

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck
A Canadian says something and you apply it across the board?

It's not just a typical canadian citizen, it's the the incoming president of the Canadian Medical Association.
Surly that holds a little more weight.

Further, if you think I'm being oversensitive, how come this report generated 3 different threads

I don't know, ask the people who started the threads. Perhaps because they thought it relevant.

This is all about the Right making fellow Americans doubt that Government health care can work.

That is because government healthcare cannot work especially in America. Nobody seems to want to face reality.
Everything the government controls eventually becomes bankrupt, corrupt and full of fraud and waste. Examples include medicare, medicaid, welfare and VA hospitals just to name a few. What on earth makes you believe nationized healthcare will be any different?

Cure cancer for $32 out of pocket?

Tell that to all the people who are not allowed to get cancer medicine in canada because they don't meet the 'requirements' which includes age.
Plus, where do you think all the cancer drugs and research is mainly being funded? Anwser: The current american system. Thanks!

Not allowed to get cancer treatment. Thanks for coming out. Where do these people come from?

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


The US has had asset forfeiture laws for ages. Our politicians/police saw how well it was working out down there and decided to get in on the action.

www.law.cornell.edu...

It really has nothing to do with Canadian healthcare though, unless we're talking about, well...... Nope, it has nothing to do with Canadian healthcare.

reply to post by ElectricUniverse

Err, actually you are in worse straights than we are. As i remember correctly, among the many things your government has done, police officers in Canada can now take your property if they can convince a Canadian judge that "somthine is not right".

Hate to tell you but you are wrong on that one. We are worse off here in the USA. Given the banking fiasco I am trying to make sure everyone knows about "Civil Asset Forfeiture"

Under civil asset forfeiture laws, the simple possession of cash, with no drugs or other contraband, can be considered evidence of criminal activity.....

Eighty percent of property forfeited to the US during the previous decade was seized from owners who were never even charged with a crime! Over $7 billion has been forfeited to the federal government since 1985....

Incredible as it sounds, civil asset forfeiture laws allow the government to seize property without charging anyone with a crime.... The government was allowed to keep whatever property it seized without ever having to prove a case. Seized property was presumed guilty and could be forfeited based upon mere hearsay—even a tip supplied by by an informant who stood to gain up to 25% of the forfeited assets. Owners were forced into the untenable situation of trying to prove a negative—that something never happened, even though no proof of any illegal act had been offered at trial.

Physicians are subject to forfeiture of their entire assets based on a clerical errors in medicare billing. FEAR.org

You can understand why doctors do not want the government running the medical industry and plan to quit if it comes to pass. Lose everything you have because your clerk made a typo...

reply to post by spitefulgod



That list is nothing more than "political propaganda"...

Meanwhile the United States is 37, Cuba, the country where I was born, and raised part of my life is number 39... and i can attest to you that this is nothing more than a lie.

The ranking system deals mostly with "ideals" than with what actually happens in the healthcare of those countries..

My parents and I still have to send money, and medicine to our family in Cuba because most medicine can not be found in regular pharmacies.

Only the hospitals which are set up for the rich tourists, and for the Cuban elite have everything they need.

The Cuban healthcare system should be equal to that of south African nations, and not almost en par with the U.S. healthcare...

This is proof this ranking system is nothing more than another scam by socialist groups such as the UN, and the WHO who reward these rankings mostly due to ideals.

[edit on 17-8-2009 by ElectricUniverse]

Originally posted by WhatTheory

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck
The rest is right wing disinfo.

You are entitled to your wrong opinion. More like right wing fact.

Fact? You don't have a clue. Why don't you come up hear and get an idea of what you're talking about. Really. Come to Toronto and we'll grab a beer and talk to all the Canadians you want. You can even tell them how deluded you think they are, but I don't recommend it.

You can live in your little dreamworld and tell us all about things you haven't witnessed...and we'll be polite.

Oh and the $32 bucks...you'll notice I said earlier that was 'out of pocket'. Parking, you know?

The rest? I pay...as of a couple of years ago...about $400 annually, which comes out of tax credits so I don't notice. The rest is general taxes. Since our standard of living is at least as good as yours...that creates a big 'So What?' Taxes are the price of civilization.

And little research goes on here? That just illustrates the degree of ignorance at play.

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
reply to post by spitefulgod

 

Err, actually you are in worse straights than we are.

As i remember correctly, among the many things your government has done, police officers in Canada can now take your property if they can convince a Canadian judge that "somthine is not right".

Cops can now ‘take all your stuff’


How did this happen in Canada? Given the recent spate of incidents where various police services have been observed perjuring themselves and destroying evidence (the Robert Dziekanski trial also comes to mind), it’s clear that this is a frontal assault on Canadian liberty. When you factor in the fact that ‘anti-terror’ law in Canada has shot holes in the concept of personal intention by jettisoning the concept of mens rea, your assets may even be seized if someone in your social circle is found guilty of a crime on or around your property. This must be addressed immediately by any honest legal eagles as may still exist in Canadian jurisprudence.

Update (2009/04/23): Wait a minute! - is this why police stations are preparing to have on-staff prosecutors?

Flashback: Entrapment becoming standard procedure for police | Ottawa moves to toughen anti-gang laws | Schools seek more police as crime drops | Ontario to place prosecutors in police stations | Tory ‘Guilty before proven innocent’ law to make debut in court | Perjury: Is it different for cops? | Justice Critic Brands Street Racing Vehicle Seizure Law as “Police State-ism”

Mindelle Jacobs, Toronto Sun
April 21, 2009

There have been some terrible miscarriages of justice due to proceeds of crime legislation in other countries.

Whether Canada will do better remains to be seen.

To the surprise of at least one legal expert, the Supreme Court of Canada last week unanimously gave the provinces incredible powers to seize assets allegedly connected to crime.

For a country that has gained the reputation, whether deserved or not, of protecting the rights of the accused over the rights of victims, it’s quite an about-face.

As one worried reader e-mailed the other day: “This is a terrifying development. If the police even suspect you of a crime, they can take all your stuff. They don’t have to prove it.”

Is he right? “Yes and no,” says University of Manitoba law professor Michelle Gallant. The cops can take your car, for instance, if they think you’re using it to sell drugs.

But the police have to persuade a judge that, on a balance of probabilities, the vehicle is connected to crime. And that’s much easier to show than providing evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that someone is guilty of a crime.

statismwatch.ca...

That's just one of the many thins that are worse in Canada, than in the U.S., even though it seems we are not far behind you.

Not far behind? I suppose that is debatable. When you take in to account the No knock warrants, the patriot act, military style checkpoints, certain states that forbid residents the right to even collect the rain water that falls over there own property, the fact that you currently hold the title of the largest prison population on the planet, add in the reality that the US government seems to have embraced corporatism rather than their constituents, has taken the nation to war that was based upon false information or outright lies, and I'd say that the US is much further ahead than Canada at this stage when it comes to freedoms and liberties, and rights being stripped from the citizenry by the state.

I think that there are certainly problems in both countries that need to be addressed in a peaceful manner. Hopefully we can succeed in doing so.

Originally posted by spitefulgod
reply to post by Doc Velocity

 

Please point out your country on this list?
1 France
2 Italy
3 San Marino
4 Andorra
5 Malta
6 Singapore
7 Spain
8 Oman
9 Austria
10 Japan
11 Norway
12 Portugal
13 Monaco
14 Greece
15 Iceland
16 Luxembourg
17 Netherlands
18 United Kingdom
19 Ireland
20 Switzerland
21 Belgium
22 Colombia
23 Sweden
24 Cyprus
25 Germany
26 Saudi Arabia
27 United Arab Emirates
28 Israel
29 Morocco
30 Canada
31 Finland
32 Australia
33 Chile
34 Denmark
35 Dominica
36 Costa Rica
37 United States of America
38 Slovenia
39 Cuba
40 Brunei
41 New Zealand
42 Bahrain
43 Croatia
44 Qatar
45 Kuwait
46 Barbados
47 Thailand
48 Czech Republic
49 Malaysia
50 Poland
... truncated for brevity ...

I love this. It's hilarious so many people oversimplify by stating "gov can't run healthcare look at this country or that country.. "

But when you do look... you find this context which shows, that it's like everything. Not all companies are efficient, and neither are all gov ran healthcare systems.

But some are, those which are competitive.

Originally posted by astrij
Not far behind? I suppose that is debatable. When you take in to account the No knock warrants, the patriot act, military style checkpoints, certain states that forbid residents the right to even collect the rain water that falls over there own property,

Yep those are bad, but similar things are happening all ove rthe world, it is the rich elite who are allowing this to happen and to further move us into a One World Socialist Government.

Originally posted by astrij
the fact that you currently hold the title of the largest prison population on the planet,

Now that is not true. First of all China executes tens of thousands of CHinese every eyar which is why their jails are not as full.

Second of all, there are other nations that do not officially give the number of people in their jails.

You think the U.S. jails are overcrowded?

Take a look at this.

Lots of photos in the following link which shows the conditions of Brazilian prisons.

demonicious.com...

Brazil's Prisons: mounting problems swept under the carpet
Marina Lemle 06/07/2009 - 03:00.

Brazil’s 1988 constitution was in its fourth year of existence, guaranteeing human dignity, when the photos of the Carandiru prison complex massacre, that left 111 dead, streamed across the world, shocking the nation, a source of shame. A lesson learned? Never again? Not true, the Brazilian corrections system is still a bad example in the international scene.

In 2004, after a recommendation by the Organization of American States (OAS) Rio de Janeiro’s Polinter Jail was closed, it was built to hold 150 detainees, but it held 430. In 2006, coordinated prison uprisings that rocked a number of prisons in São Paulo State called attention to the nation’s overpopulated jails, an issue that once more made headlines when the National Council for Criminal and Corrections Policy asked the Federal government to intervene in the State of Espírito Santo, where prisoners were being held in containers.

www.comunidadesegura.org...

Originally posted by astrij
add in the reality that the US government seems to have embraced corporatism rather than their constituents,

The government, even under Bush, and more so under the current administraiton has been embracing Socialist totalitarian laws, and policies, and yes they ahve also given power over to something that President Obama gave power to and they call the Corporation. But the Feds which is not really part of the government also has powers and controls the government, and the nation ever since Woodrow Wilson signed the Federal Reserve Act.

Originally posted by astrij
has taken the nation to war that was based upon false information or outright lies, and I'd say that the US is much further ahead than Canada at this stage when it comes to freedoms and liberties, and rights being stripped from the citizenry by the state.

Canada, and other countries also went to war in Afghanistan, and other countries also were allies in the fight with Iraq, such as Britain.

Originally posted by astrij
I think that there are certainly problems in both countries that need to be addressed in a peaceful manner. Hopefully we can succeed in doing so.

Where did I say anything about no peaceful solutions? At least in this I agree with you. However it doesn't seem that the current administration wants to do this, and instead Americans who dare to question the CHANGES are being labeled as "rightwing extremists" and "possible terrorists"...

Originally posted by Avenginggecko
This article is pretty conveniently timed, don't you think? We don't hear anything about healthcare in the media, and then at the peak of the debate, suddenly an article surfaces that Canadian healthcare is going to explode? Smells a little funny!

Not really. Have you seen/heard this on MSM?
NO.
The CMA annual meeting was scheduled far in advance of any US Congressional recess and "town hall" meetings.
The 'debate' is only happening because this is one of the few times when Congres takes time off to allow reps. to go back home and visit with voters.
Maybe it was the other way around!
Why did Congress pick THIS time to open the bill up for debate?
The UK and Canada do not schedule their business to fit the US' agenda, I'm sure.

jw

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
Anything even mildly socialist is banned even though you have socialised schools, police, fire service, libraries etc etc!

You are mistaking "governmental" functions from "proprietary" functions.

Government is organized and empowered to perform certain functions that are best done collectively: sewage removal and treatment, law enforcement and fire suppression, to name a few.

Proprietary functions are those that can be performed privately, but are undertaken by the government "for the common good."

Trash pick-up, water service, and other 'utilities' are proprietary functions.

There is indeed a trade-off, but it is not a license for government to intrude on those functions and services that are best performed and paid for privately in a face-to-face transaction between the provider and recipient.

Just because some functions are determined to be "governmental" does not make THAT option the best solution for every problem.

It IS a trade off.

jw