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Canadian Healthcare System "Imploding"

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posted on Aug, 17 2009 @ 09:58 PM
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Originally posted by Taikonaut

Originally posted by centurion1211
Ask any medical person, BP of 200 is more serious than a cut or scrape. since a stroke (serious, or fatal) can be the result.


For the average obese american it is...

I guess bleeding lard is more serious than bleeding blood eh

Except that under Obama's plan all the "normal" people will be paying for the care of the "lard bleeders."

That's fair, right?

Or, what was your point?

jw




posted on Aug, 17 2009 @ 09:58 PM
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reply to post by jdub297
 


My .02

People really bash the Canadian health care system here in the states but you will be hard pressed to find many Canadians that will bash it. They are happy with the coverage. There are always people who will use one example of someone who had to wait some time for care and passed away. But i can assure you that this happens all the time here in the states. Not to mention I love how so many say you will be waiting months for care, as if we have immediate surgeries and care in this country. The only time you are rushed right into surgery in this country, is if it is life or death. I personally know many people here in the states with "good" insurance that they pay for and they are forced to wait for most surgeries and treatments. They usually schedule most procedures at least a few weeks to a couple months down the road unless its a necessity to have it done quickly.

A friend of mine had his kidney stone surgery re-scheduled 3 times, he had to wait about 3 months in pain before treatment. My mom needed surgery on her hand, they scheduled it 2 months in the future.

The people in this country who think our healthcare system is perfect, are either paying out the butt for top of the line coverage or they have not had a serious medical condition that has forced them to have to deal with insurance coverage.

I can testify first hand as to the problems with the current system. I have employer provided health care, although I have to pay $120 a month to have this coverage. I went on the Blue Cross/Blue Shield website and found a better plan than i currently have for a much better price, but, i'm not eligible because my employer provides me with healthcare(again, they "provide" me with something i have to pay for). I am forced to use my company health care even though its not the best deal. I cannot obtain private insurance, unless my employer does not provide me with a group rate.

Another example, this insurance i have is really terrible. Its called SRC and I get denied or challenged for almost every claim I make. I will go to the doctor or dentist, they will say i'm covered for that doctor, i will get treatment and then a few months later they will send me a notice that they will not be covering a certain service because it was more than they allot for that service. I dont know this information until AFTER the service is rendered , leaving me stuck with the difference.

Last example, in 2005 I broke my jaw playing backyard football, knocked me out cold. While unconscious my someone called an ambulance, i didnt need it, i was conscious and fine(except for the broken jaw) within minutes. Nonetheless I was basically forced to ride a mile down the road in the ambulance. This cost $1000, my insurance company would not cover the cost of this because they said I the use of an ambulance had not been pre-approved. I was unconscious!! Someone else called for it and if I had been in real need of an ambulance(lets say dying on the spot) am I to wait on the phone with my insurance company to get approval to call an ambulance?

Our system is flawed and I dont agree with the bill as written but I think that having this discussion is one step in the right direction. In Industrialized nations health care should be a right not a privilege reserved for the rich and powerful.



posted on Aug, 17 2009 @ 10:08 PM
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Originally posted by Taikonaut
thought I'd come down your lower common denominator of blaming a racial group for the problem...just thought I'd substitute the obese-american stereotype compared to yours of hispanic immigrants...not nice is it


Except "hispanic" is not a race. And "illegal" is a status, not a circumstance of birth.

Obesity, more often than not, is a matter of lifestyle and choice.

Your is not an apt juxtaposition or contrast.

ATS should establish standards for RATIONAL debate, instead of name-calling and vitriol in lieu of substance, since many members have no idea how to think for themselves and respond intellectually or objectively.

Most Americans do not have a problem with "immigrants" of any nationality or race.

No American should stand for ignorance and irrationality.

Deny ignorance.

jw



posted on Aug, 17 2009 @ 10:23 PM
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Originally posted by Wormwood Squirm
What the hell do you know about Canada living in Texas and Indiana Huh?

NOYFB.

Assume I travel.

What do you know about reasonable discourse and the ATS ToCs?

If you have nothing of substance to contribute, return to your shell.

jw



posted on Aug, 17 2009 @ 11:20 PM
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the Canadian health care system is not imploding its falling apart due to the gross mismanagement of it by our so called leaders .they have come up with more creative ways to fleece the taxpayer out of more taxes thru its unique brain dead ideas.
1] the clinics up here get paid DOUBLE what our family doctors get for seeing us .
2] these clinics only deal with 1 problem at a time -lets say the flu if you need stitches also you have go through the line up again as 2 visits so they get paid twice for you.what a money grab against the tax payer and where is our leaders out to lunch.clinic wait times can be up to 6 hours and they close at 8 pm.
3]family doctors have had to form clinics of their own to survive ,if you are their patient you must deal with this group the reason being that if you go to a clinic they bill the government and your family dr. also gets billed for the same visit.
4]our hospitals now all have a ceo. when it used to be a board of dr`s and assistants that ran the hospitals ,these ceo make $200,000 and upwards to DO WHAT ! $200,00.00 X 100,000 HOSPITALS IS HOW MUCH MORE COST.
5]cash talks ask our politicians and the rich if they need surgery they get it as soon as possible ,knee replacement for them is 2 to 7 days for surgery ,i on the other hand had to wait for 6 months for surgery,on the public system in fact the ceo stopped all knee replacements for the year in September here at our hospital .
6] the governments idea of cutting costs is to close our hospital here in town for 4 hundred thousand people and we have to drive to any other city if this keeps up only the major cities will have doctors.
7]our Ontario government lied to all it`s people saying that they were going to start to collect more taxes off of us on our pay checks but it was not a new tax this was to prop up the health care system ,this was to last for 3 years well it is now 6 years and it still comes off every week.it is $900.00 a year each and not one penny of it went to HEALTH CARE it all went into GENERAL COFFERS and our health care system is a mess all because of the politicians.
8]we have up here a 3 tier pay system for health care,if that is what you call health care .and the wait times are getting worst.
9]we now have what is called a nurse practitioner who can supposedly replace a doctor for diagnosing us and our problems ,none of them have the letters phd in medicine or school of doctors behind their names.
10]how about the new mess of theirs tele health services -phone in and tell them what your symptoms are and they will either tell you to go to the hospital or go and see your doctors,they can even prescribe prescriptions for you without ever seeing you .WHAT A SCAM OF OUR TAX DOLLARS -I WONDER WHICH ELECTED POLITICIANS HAVE THEIR GRUBBY LITTLE HANDS IN THIS ONE .
and the list just gets longer of their mindless stupidity.



posted on Aug, 17 2009 @ 11:32 PM
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"Healthcare should be cheap if not free.. Always and for ever.. Simple as that.

Its a right not a privilege. "


This is 100% incorrect. In no way is health care a right.

It would be wonderful to provide everyone with innovated and sustaining health care "cheap- if not free. Always and forever". Sadly, it's this typ of fairytale thinking that catapaulted Barack Obama into the presidency.

A Human Right is something that a person is given by the virtue of being human, at birth and cannot be taken away. They are simple in nature and apply regardless of age, appearance, race, gender, religion, etc. Ideas like the right of expression, life, liberty, pursuit of happiness (note they did not say property) are what rights are. Suggesting that free health care is a right fails when one considers "what if no one chose to be a health care provider?". You cannot declare something a right when it would infringe on the rights of others.

Our health care system is far from perfect, and I don't declare to be an expert on the situation. But there are many issues that are simply being ignored in this push to centralize control over the handling of our health care (and the backlash seems to be shrinking the resolve of those pushing to change it). There is little effort for tort reform. There is no discussion about the influence of illegal immigrants have on the health care system. These two issues alone dramatically effect the cost of system. There is no effort to really explain how we'd be able to afford this system. According to the Heritage Foundation, our current Medicare and Medicaid system estimates a one trillion dollar increase in costs in the next ten years to pay for those currently on the system. Imagine the cost if we increased this? As many posters have already stated- centralized control and payment for health care, in the long run, is doomed. It's not sustainable. Most of the angry people recognize that our government does not care to figure out how to pay for any of the changes. We don't trust our government to create a system that works, because they'll take the concerns of Big Pharm, the lawyers, the insurance companies, and anyone else who has a strong enough lobbying group in Washington DC over the concerns of the US citizen. That's why most people are angry- we come last. Both Democrats and Republicans are statists first, party second, lobbyists third, and people last.



posted on Aug, 17 2009 @ 11:50 PM
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Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck
Fact? You don't have a clue.

Just because you keep repeating the same thing like a parrot is not going to make it become true BUT ok, if that helps you sleep better.


Thanks for ignoring all the proof I gave you. I wanted names and I gave you names. I also provided other links showing how bad nationalized healthcare is compared to the U.S.

When God was handing out clues, you thought he said shoes and put them on and kept walking.



posted on Aug, 18 2009 @ 03:24 AM
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reply to post by ZombieOctopus
 


Use smaller words for the Yankees, I fear your message is lost.

I'm sorry.. actually no, I'm not. I'm so tired of these ignorant morons judging the rest of the world when they come across as having the education of an elementary school drop out.

These idiot Americans talk about socialist policies as if they're literally equated to Hitler and Stalin and I'm tired of being patient with their ignorance. They don't seem to get that when they call their "fellow Americans" socialists, or compare them to such personalities for wanting a public health care system, that there are countries all around the world that are very happy with these policies that take offense.

Our system is certainly not imploding and if there was even a chance of losing our "socialized" system, the current government would be begging for votes on the street as a new one quickly took it place. Canada is a social democracy and proud of it. [snip] if you can't see beyond your republican talking points long enough to read a book.


Wow. Do you feel better?

Last time I checked, it looked as though the majority of Americans are for socialized medicine, to an extent. We (Americans) all pretty much understand that if implemented properly, it could really help out our (USAs) current healthcare situation (which I must add is nowhere near the worst the world has to offer as a certain someone has claimed).

Honestly I'm seeing more and more America bashing on these forums lately and it's making me wonder what's really going on. It's almost as if every other country on earth is being fed BS through mass media (more than us) in an attempt to create an entire global anti-American movement. Not once have I felt hatred or disgust toward Canada or Europe as a whole (and especially nothing that would cause me to label all of their citizens “Ignorant Morons / Idiots”). In fact, I envy their societies and culture to a point where I truly feel my personality and beliefs would fit in much better if I were to move to the UK. I see the USA as Canada's basement. The majority of the people I know feel the exact same way. At the same time I have that fear that as soon as I got over there I would be hated simply because I'm American. I would be viewed as some idiot backwoods retard and treated as if I had a "Bush '04" bumper sticker on the back of my Lotus. I understand people will always have their reasons for loathing another society or nation but it just seems like America is in the crosshairs of every other nation for reasons I can't explain. It's been that way for a while now and it's really starting to bother me.

Let me just clear a few things up while I'm at it.

1. Only a tiny, tiny minority of Americans are supportive of the wars in which we are currently involved. We're not all republican, Fox News loving, rootin' tootin' gunslingers with gigantic SUVs.

2. Many Americans are very open-minded toward new ideas and will do anything in their power (schedule permitting) to show their support for it. We actually view change as a good thing.

3. I travel throughout the country a lot. Yes the stocks may be showing signs of an imploding economy but I have yet to see, with my own eyes, anything that truly resembles a collapsed economy here in the physical world. Shopping centers are packed, new buildings are going up everywhere, and auto sales are healthy to say the least. That's just a few examples.

I just think things are being blown way out of proportion in an attempt to create distrust and hatred toward the United States. It would appear to be working quite well.



posted on Aug, 18 2009 @ 03:55 AM
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Originally posted by jdub297

Originally posted by Wormwood Squirm
What the hell do you know about Canada living in Texas and Indiana Huh?

NOYFB.

Assume I travel.

What do you know about reasonable discourse and the ATS ToCs?

If you have nothing of substance to contribute, return to your shell.

jw


I understand TOC very well. Your statement about Canada offends me so I made the obvious point that no person from the middle of the US has any right to ridicule Canada or make blanket statements such as yours "Canada Health Care is dead" crap without experiencing it for more than a holiday.

I don't have to assume anything. I'm from your neck of the woods and am a Hoosier but I choose to live in Canada for many more reasons than its awesome health care with no fees.


[edit on 18-8-2009 by Wormwood Squirm]



posted on Aug, 18 2009 @ 08:21 AM
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Originally posted by Pabama
"Healthcare should be cheap if not free.. Always and for ever.. Simple as that.

Its a right not a privilege. "


This is 100% incorrect. In no way is health care a right.


Actually, it pretty well is in Canada. Here's the wording from the Canada Health Act:


The Canada Health Act (CHA or the Act) is Canada's federal legislation for publicly funded health care insurance. The Act sets out the primary objective of Canadian health care policy, which is "to protect, promote and restore the physical and mental well-being of residents of Canada and to facilitate reasonable access to health services without financial or other barriers." www.hc-sc.gc.ca...




Originally posted by WhatTheory

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck
Fact? You don't have a clue.

Just because you keep repeating the same thing like a parrot is not going to make it become true BUT ok, if that helps you sleep better.


Thanks for ignoring all the proof I gave you. I wanted names and I gave you names. I also provided other links showing how bad nationalized healthcare is compared to the U.S.

When God was handing out clues, you thought he said shoes and put them on and kept walking.




Laff away, but the aberrations in the system don't define it, no matter how much you want to hammer that square peg into the round hole. There are differences in drug standards between Canada and the US...shall we talk about all the US seniors coming up here for affordable generic drugs? Another success for the free market. Canada's drug trials take longer because they are more exacting. And some people fall between the cracks, and some hospitals are better/worse than others. We hear the stories too...they are a big deal and remedies are demanded. Scata happens and some get screwed by a system that seems to leave them behind.

There is also the simple fact that demographics...the Boomer Bulge...is pushing that cohort into more use of the system so that every health system is feeling the strain.

But if you look at the posters on this and other threads, Canadians are almost uniformly satisfied with their treatment under this system...maybe not delighted, but they'll take it over any options they are seeing.

Bottom line?
I'm not here to blow our horn...simply to allay the fears of ordinary Americans that what we have is either impossible or un-sustainable. Yes, we have doctors bitching about not being able to set their own rates in private clinics...they can go south to gouge you, if you prefer. I see a specialist every week, a GP regularly and other specialists and the oncologist when I need to. No fee. Emergency runs to the ER? No fee...well, I lie...$40 ambulance fee which my extended health care covers.

It ain't perfect...but you pretty much only see Americans here telling us how bad it is...cuz they read it on the net (and it suits their politics).

How very arrogant not to listen to the users of the system who, by and large, are just freakin' chuffed that illness or injury don't mean ruination.

Clues and shoes, you say? Well thanks to my government health care, I can afford both.



posted on Aug, 18 2009 @ 09:25 AM
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reply to post by JohnnyCanuck
 


First, health care is not a right, as well explained above. You are not entitled to force anyone to undertake your own care. That is a personal responsibility. Many will assume it for you, for a fee.

As for the systems in question:

www.dailymail.co.uk...

“Woman Gives Birth on Sidewalk After Refused Ambulance”




www.vancouversun.com...

“Thousands of surgeries may be cut in Metro Vancouver, leaked paper reveals”



Vancouver patients needing neurosurgery, treatment for vascular diseases and other medically necessary procedures can expect to wait longer for care, NDP health critic Adrian Dix said Monday.
Dix said a Vancouver Coastal Health Authority document shows it is considering chopping more than 6,000 surgeries in an effort to make up for a dramatic budgetary shortfall that could reach $200 million.
“This hasn’t been announced by the health authority … but these cuts are coming,” Dix said, citing figures gleaned from a leaked executive summary of “proposed VCH surgical reductions.”


Nationalist pride is one thing. Ignorance is altogether different; sadly it is generally incurable regardless of payor.

jw



posted on Aug, 18 2009 @ 09:31 AM
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reply to post by picrat
 


I can empathize, as I am assisting a friend navigate the maze of the US system. He stands to lose his benefits and his job.

I hope that both our great nations will eventually see that a system driven by demand and competition, paid for by individual (tax-free) dollars, is the simplest, fairest system for everyone.

The poor and the victims of catstrophe and disease are the appropriate recipient of a collective response, but not the day-to-day needs of preventive and basic health care.

Good luck to you.

jw

[edit on 18-8-2009 by jdub297]



posted on Aug, 18 2009 @ 09:47 AM
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Originally posted by jdub297
First, health care is not a right, as well explained above.


Sorry, in this country, you have a right, noted above, as cited under the Canada Health Act.

As for the systems in question:
www.vancouversun.com...

“Thousands of surgeries may be cut in Metro Vancouver, leaked paper reveals”



Points to note...
-Vancouver Sun is a Conservative tabloid and it...as do you...cherry picks a story to find the bits that support one's own politics.
-It is the opposition health critic who is putting this out...and it is his job to say that the sky is falling.
-It is a planning document...presenting ideas (think Northwoods)

The health authority confirmed the document is genuine, but said it represents ideas only. “It is a planning document. It has not been approved or implemented,” said spokeswoman Anna Marie D’Angelo.

-It is a fact of life that Hospital Boards will cry wolf in order to get the attention of the funding authorities. It is also the case that BC is noted for supporting privatization...against the Canada Health Act.

Everybody cited in this story has an agenda, including the editorial board, and that is the same as yours, to frighten people into agreeing with them.



Nationalist pride is one thing. Ignorance is altogether different; sadly it is generally incurable regardless of payor.


Indeed...so you might want to drop your nationalist attitude that you know this country better than those who live here, you know what's better for us, and that we don't have a clue. You also might want to investigate the sources you parrot...deny ignorance.



posted on Aug, 18 2009 @ 10:04 AM
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Universal healthcare is a good system. The ideology behind it is humane, noble, and moral.

If the system is managed by people who are not motivated by greed and power over others, it works!

Everyone should have access to healthcare without the fear of facing bankruptcy for unseen medical problems that can and do pop up sooner or later.....for all of us.



posted on Aug, 18 2009 @ 10:30 AM
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Originally posted by WhatTheory

Originally posted by astrij
Never heard of this before.

I don't know where you heard this nonsense, however it is simply untrue.

Really??

Perhaps you should get out more.

See my post at the top of this page for one of many, many examples.

[edit on 8/17/2009 by WhatTheory]


Another cherry picked story, Winnipeg? No one wants to be in Winnipeg in the first place so if I can go work at a hospital in Toronto and make the same money I am on the first plane out of the crapiest place to live in Canada. Shortage of Doctors and medical staff will always be a problem up there. You can find more bad stories of how National Health Care is bad but at the end of the day it will always need fine tuning. The direct comparison, if money is taken out and care is provided to all equally with no cost to patients then one would go for superior care wherever it is. However, money can not be taken out and in this case the Canadian system is preferable to most average people. The rich in the US can afford great care but as less and less can spend on it the higher the cost(supply, demand) to even the wealthy and eventually would not be affordable to any. So even if you can spend big bucks on health care now what about in the future or your children or even their children, how happy would you be if your kids had to sell your estate and put you in a home because your grandson needed long term care/treatment and the only way to pay for it is to sell the mansion? See here in Canada we don't have that problem as we pay through payroll taxes etc. to maintain the system we have. You pay insurance but your costs more, we can pay more to private insurance if we feel we want to but it is a choice. I have never met anyone in Canada who had to sell their house or get a second mortgage to pay hospital bills. You may be right that the system we use here may not work in the US but, it may be the part of a foundation they could build on.



posted on Aug, 18 2009 @ 11:09 AM
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reply to post by JohnnyCanuck
 


The truth is the truth.

Squirm all you want, call it "cherry-picking if you want; you cannot evade the truth.

jw



posted on Aug, 18 2009 @ 11:13 AM
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Originally posted by John Matrix
Everyone should have access to healthcare without the fear of facing bankruptcy for unseen medical problems that can and do pop up sooner or later.....for all of us.


I had this discussion recently with a loved one. Increased longevity leads directly to inevitable problems that didn;t have to be addressed 100 years ago.

Government, insurance, and a collective 'pool' have a place there; but, not in basic care and preventive care.

jw



posted on Aug, 18 2009 @ 11:15 AM
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Originally posted by jdub297
reply to post by JohnnyCanuck
 


The truth is the truth.

Squirm all you want, call it "cherry-picking if you want; you cannot evade the truth.

jw


Well that's a stunning argument to a well laid out post. Instead of "cherry-picking" why not look at those that have experience with this system:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

You're right, you can't evade the truth. No matter how much one would like to "fear-monger".



posted on Aug, 18 2009 @ 11:19 AM
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Originally posted by jdub297
reply to post by JohnnyCanuck
 


The truth is the truth.

Squirm all you want, call it "cherry-picking if you want; you cannot evade the truth.jw


The truth is that scata happens...the truth is also that if you search long enough you will find both the 'facts' and the consultants to back up anything. Sorry, but you have a bunch of reasonably happy campers up here in terms of the health care offered. Your agenda is to disparage it...problem is the users of the system aren't backing you up except for the aberrations that are endemic to every system.

And you are not presenting the truth...you are presenting 'shades of the truth' which isn't the same as 'the whole story.'

Nice try, though. I'm sure you will get the health care you deserve.



posted on Aug, 18 2009 @ 11:19 AM
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Originally posted by intrepid
You're right, you can't evade the truth. No matter how much one would like to "fear-monger".


Is the current president of the CMA a "fearmonger?"

Is the incoming president of the CMA a "fearmonger?"

Please explain, Mr. Moderator, how I or your health care providers are "fear mongers" by making this information known to ATS members.

jw



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