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Canadian Healthcare System "Imploding"

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posted on Aug, 18 2009 @ 04:42 PM
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Originally posted by centurion1211
And there you have it. Real boots on the ground information on canadian healthcare from someone working on the inside of their system.


You believe anything that anyone says on the internet? As long as it serves your bias? Good luck with that. Let me guess, this is a personal attack.




posted on Aug, 18 2009 @ 04:48 PM
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Originally posted by intrepid

Originally posted by centurion1211
And there you have it. Real boots on the ground information on canadian healthcare from someone working on the inside of their system.


You believe anything that anyone says on the internet? As long as it serves your bias? Good luck with that. Let me guess, this is a personal attack.


After having gone through alot of his posting history he is very much a "if you aren't with us, you are against us" kind of guy. No room to discussion, if you don't agree with him you are completely wrong and have no idea what you are talking about.



posted on Aug, 18 2009 @ 05:02 PM
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Originally posted by intrepid

Originally posted by centurion1211
And there you have it. Real boots on the ground information on canadian healthcare from someone working on the inside of their system.


You believe anything that anyone says on the internet? As long as it serves your bias? Good luck with that. Let me guess, this is a personal attack.


Personal attack? If anyone should have any "paranoia" - and I don't - it would be me since a certain mod seems to like to follow me around and challenge everything I say ...

Believe everything on the internet? No, we all have to pick and choose what to believe - just as you do when you choose to believe that everything canadian is the pinnacle of "wonderfulness".




posted on Aug, 18 2009 @ 05:06 PM
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Originally posted by centurion1211
Believe everything on the internet? No, we all have to pick and choose what to believe - just as you do when you choose to believe that everything canadian is the pinnacle of "wonderfulness".



My point, one that keeps getting missed is:


Originally posted by intrepid

Originally posted by jdub297
This newspaper article is both relevant and probative, therefore admissable.

Anything else, take up with the publisher.

jw

[edit on 18-8-2009 by jdub297]


No, it's slanted and inaccurate. You can do that with Google. Are we to assume because Manitoba doctor's still make house calls that we have the best care in the world? No, it's just as slanted and inaccurate.


 


So, this is the opposite from the OP. We have doctors that still make house calls. Does that mean that Canada has the best services on the planet? NO! You have to look at the mean, not abstracts and aberations.



posted on Aug, 18 2009 @ 05:13 PM
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Originally posted by centurion1211
reply to post by Phenomium
 


And there you have it. Real boots on the ground information on canadian healthcare from someone working on the inside of their system.

Now waiting for the canadian pride people to start attacking that messenger, too.



That's right. I have first hand account of their health system. It is nowhere as good as they claim. It is better than having nothing at all, but they never really get anything done there. I spent 10 years trying to get their healthcare to fix my sinuses and all I did was waste gas and 10 years later, sinuses still not fixed. Worthless healthcare is free for a reason.



posted on Aug, 18 2009 @ 05:15 PM
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Originally posted by Phenomium
That's right. I have first hand account of their health system. It is nowhere as good as they claim. It is better than having nothing at all, but they never really get anything done there. I spent 10 years trying to get their healthcare to fix my sinuses and all I did was waste gas and 10 years later, sinuses still not fixed. Worthless healthcare is free for a reason.


Sorry to call BS but maybe you just missed my post:

www.abovetopsecret.com...



posted on Aug, 18 2009 @ 05:19 PM
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I've had experiences with both the Canadian and American healthcare systems and found the American system to be absolutely atrocious. The Canadian system is well ahead of the American one, the main difference being you are treated as a human being in Canada, whereas you're treated like a piece of garbage in the States.

The Canadian system would not work well in the USA because there is too much greed and corruption down in that cesspool. The Federal Conservative Government in Canada has been pushing for privatization of the healthcare system in order to "help" their medical and pharmaceutical buddies.

The reason why most Canadians do not realize that their healthcare system is broken is because it IS NOT broken. These are scare tactics by the Government to promote their privatization agenda. These tactics are also used by the heads of the healthcare agencies so they can request more operational funds.



posted on Aug, 18 2009 @ 05:59 PM
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Originally posted by SphinxMontreal
I've had experiences with both the Canadian and American healthcare systems and found the American system to be absolutely atrocious.


I'm afraid you are wrong.

We have a host of foreigners here telling us that we don't know what we're talking about...must be mass psychosis, right?

Thanks be that we have Right Wing America to set us straight. Now all they need to do is win an election.



posted on Aug, 18 2009 @ 06:40 PM
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Originally posted by intrepid

Originally posted by Phenomium
That's right. I have first hand account of their health system. It is nowhere as good as they claim. It is better than having nothing at all, but they never really get anything done there. I spent 10 years trying to get their healthcare to fix my sinuses and all I did was waste gas and 10 years later, sinuses still not fixed. Worthless healthcare is free for a reason.


Sorry to call BS but maybe you just missed my post:

www.abovetopsecret.com...


Call it what you like. Just because they "tripped" and got one thing right doesn't make the entirety of the healthcare a good one. My wife was a nurse there. I am sure I know more about your healthcare than you do.I had to listen to her about it. Call it BS if you like, I couldn't care less. I am happy though, that you got lucky and benefitted, many are forgotten and there are some that according to my wife in her early years that the canadian healthcare reps pulled the plug on and let them die without any permission from family or no court order...they were just given a mixture of drugs which quickly killed them so the nurses and doctors could save money for the hospital. The mixture was called coloquially.....a cocktail. This is one of the unspoken, dark secrets that I am sure canadians don't want the world to know. I am not saying this happens everywhere, but it happened at one hospital my wife worked at and she said they were eerily comfortable with doing it.



posted on Aug, 18 2009 @ 06:43 PM
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reply to post by Phenomium
 

So what province are we talkin' here?



posted on Aug, 18 2009 @ 06:45 PM
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Originally posted by SphinxMontreal
I've had experiences with both the Canadian and American healthcare systems and found the American system to be absolutely atrocious. The Canadian system is well ahead of the American one, the main difference being you are treated as a human being in Canada, whereas you're treated like a piece of garbage in the States.

The Canadian system would not work well in the USA because there is too much greed and corruption down in that cesspool. The Federal Conservative Government in Canada has been pushing for privatization of the healthcare system in order to "help" their medical and pharmaceutical buddies.

The reason why most Canadians do not realize that their healthcare system is broken is because it IS NOT broken. These are scare tactics by the Government to promote their privatization agenda. These tactics are also used by the heads of the healthcare agencies so they can request more operational funds.


...and....end scene, we're back to reality now.......yes it is broken.You canadians are so funny. You're like the cop at an accident scene that says "move along now, nothing to see here" when quite evidently there is something to see there. LOL, I lived there and my wife was a nurse there,........the jig ius up. Read some of my other posts back and you will see why. Talk about deny ignorance, you guys are denying truth. I can see why though, it's the only thing you guys have to be proud of....bet it would be hard to give up the one and only thing you guys have bragged about for so long. Oh except the one or 2 battles from the late 1700's where you beat up a couple of American farmers with guns and claim to this day that you beat the whole of the American military,.....you guys will milk that day for the rest of your existence. Again, I know, I had to suffer all of your brainwashing commercials about it. Self-serving country canada.

[edit on 18-8-2009 by Phenomium]



posted on Aug, 18 2009 @ 06:54 PM
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Originally posted by Phenomium Read some of my other posts back and you will see why.


Actually, you kind of blew your credibility with comments like "canada is to the U.S. what Texas is to the U.S, a bothersome embarassment that we have to deal with like a snot-slinging drunk at a party."

Need I go on?



posted on Aug, 18 2009 @ 07:16 PM
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reply to post by JohnnyCanuck
 


They did. Two years in a row. The result was a war, tons of lost money, and a loss of freedoms.

Now, we have a president who has invaded another country, continuing the war that the last one did, while attempting to limit our freedoms some more while spending MORE money than the last guy.

Really, we just don't trust out government. It's part of our tradition, culture, and national identity. As much as you guys love yours and hate ours (health care), it's very much the same thing here. We are satisfied with our health care. This wasn't even a talking point 4 months ago. Nothing that anyone ever considered was a problem.

15 years ago Clinton decided that it was a problem. Before then, it wasn't a problem. Since then, not a problem. Now that she's back again, it's a problem.

The reality is that 15% of Americans, the minority, are not satisfied with their health care. 85% are.

Now, with that said, the entire problem has never been addressed. Obama is talking about Health Care when the problem is Health Care Insurance. The bill talks about regulating Health Care and doctor pay when the entire problem is the Insurance. There's a reason why you can only get OxyContin with health insurance and not the cheaper, non-name brand Oxycodone.

And that is the only thing that the government has right about this. That is, they'll take the cheapest route to get equal, or acceptably lesser, care. Insurance companies are tied in with big pharmacuetical and the result is higher costs of health insurance which net more profits for the insurer, the pharmacuetical companies, and the doctors.

The other problem that hasn't been addressed is Tort Reform. Nobody mentions it when it's just as big of a factor as insurance is.

Is it a wonder we don't want our government running something as vital as health care? Do YOU trust our government to run something? Anything?



posted on Aug, 18 2009 @ 07:47 PM
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Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck

Originally posted by Phenomium Read some of my other posts back and you will see why.


Actually, you kind of blew your credibility with comments like "canada is to the U.S. what Texas is to the U.S, a bothersome embarassment that we have to deal with like a snot-slinging drunk at a party."

Need I go on?

I don't see how that blew my credibility......it's common knowledge that the rest of America despises Texas. Most of all our political evil comes from there. Antichrists and oil pigs.I was associating canada with Texas, as both have the tendency to boast and ride the coattails of others while they, themselves, have earned nothing. They boast of the achievements of historical predecessors while they just sit around and do nothing but brag about the very achievement that they personally had no hand in. canada boasts the very same way, about their history while 200 years later they have done nothing on the world stage....yet, the boasting still goes on. I wasn't looking for credibility anyway. I was merely making statements from my point of view having lived in canada for 10 years and married to a nurse who worked in your healthcare system. notice I said MY WIFE, not myself, if any credibility is deserved it would belong to her anyway. I couldn't care less who believes me or not. I said it, I meant it and thats just it. Just telling it like it is, if you don't like it, well.

[edit on 18-8-2009 by Phenomium]



posted on Aug, 18 2009 @ 09:28 PM
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Originally posted by Rook1545
I will U2U. Bullies and little internet trolls do not scare me. Not too sure why I wouldn't have guts to call you out on your bs.

So, You've got my "system."
(you thought I was bluffing, didn't you?)

It's not American.
It's not Canadian.
It gives people the ability to negotiate. It provides for the sick and poor.

Happy now?

jw

[edit on 18-8-2009 by jdub297]



posted on Aug, 18 2009 @ 09:34 PM
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Originally posted by Syphon
So, when one person comes along who's wife supposedly works in Canadian health care and starts dropping random claims that support your politics with zero evidence to back it up, that's hunky dory. But the multitude of other Canadians voicing their opinions that the system isn't imploding, but could be tweaked, is just blind patriotism and are to be ignored?

Sorry to burst your evidentiary bubble, but one firsthand account defeats all the anecdotes you can 'recall.'

There are no "multitude" Canadians here so far.

jw



posted on Aug, 18 2009 @ 09:35 PM
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Originally posted by Credge

The reality is that 15% of Americans, the minority, are not satisfied with their health care. 85% are.



The polls vary, but thats pretty close.

This study compares those ratings to the Canadiens opinion of their health care.




townhall.com...

A survey by the Kaiser Family Foundation found that 89 percent of Americans are satisfied with the health care they receive. And surprisingly, even 70 percent of the uninsured reported themselves as either "satisfied" or "very satisfied" with their health care.

Canadians, researcher John R. Lott reports, were asked the same questions in a Harris survey. "In most comparisons, Canadians were more satisfied than uninsured Americans, but just barely, and they were nowhere near as satisfied as insured Americans." Seventy-seven percent of insured Americans were happy with their ability to access timely non-emergency care. Only 60 percent of Canadians were. And while large majorities of Canadians say they prefer their system to ours, far more Canadians than Americans (26 percentage points difference) express frustration at not being able to "see top-quality medical specialists."

A 2001 survey of Canadian doctors, cited in "National Health Insurance in the United States and Canada: Race, Territory, and the Roots of Difference" by Gerard William Boychuk, found that they rated their system more critically than American doctors do ours. Whereas 72 percent of American doctors rated emergency room care as good or excellent, only 51 percent of Canadians said as much. Hospital administrators in the U.S. rated 88 percent of intensive care units as good/excellent compared with 70 percent of Canadian; 81 percent of operating theaters compared with 62 percent Canadian; and diagnostic and imaging technology 84 percent compared with 49 percent Canadian.

Since the 2005 ruling by the Canadian Supreme Court that Quebec could not lawfully forbid a citizen from paying privately for medical care, private clinics have begun to spring up around Canada (though it varies by province).



I am happy with my health care and I am glad the majority of Canadiens are satisfied with their health care.

You can have yours, I want to keep mine longer than just currently.

I want to be the one to worry about what happens to my families health care if I get offered a better job, not a government official.



posted on Aug, 18 2009 @ 09:40 PM
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Originally posted by centurion1211

Originally posted by intrepid

Originally posted by centurion1211
And there you have it. Real boots on the ground information on canadian healthcare from someone working on the inside of their system.


You believe anything that anyone says on the internet? As long as it serves your bias? Good luck with that. Let me guess, this is a personal attack.


Personal attack? If anyone should have any "paranoia" - and I don't - it would be me since a certain mod seems to like to follow me around and challenge everything I say ...

Believe everything on the internet? No, we all have to pick and choose what to believe - just as you do when you choose to believe that everything canadian is the pinnacle of "wonderfulness".



Wow. Can't counter in substance, so the mod goes for the person? No one here has criticized Canada or the Canadian system.

We've offered EXAMPLES of criticisms of the Canadian system relevant to whether the U.S. should adopt a similar system.

Thin skins do not qualify moderation. In fact, they should disqualify.

Deny Ignorance!

jw

[edit on 18-8-2009 by jdub297]



posted on Aug, 19 2009 @ 08:15 AM
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Originally posted by mhc_70
This study compares those ratings to the Canadiens opinion of their health care.
townhall.com...
A survey by the Kaiser Family Foundation found that 89 percent of Americans are satisfied with the health care they receive. And surprisingly, even 70 percent of the uninsured reported themselves as either "satisfied" or "very satisfied" with their health care.


Are these guys not the same people selling health insurance? Can I question that source, please? This is asking the fox to inventory the henhouse, right? I have had a high-level bureaucrat say to me that if you have enough money, you can get a consultant to say anything. Nice to have it confirmed.


Canadians, researcher John R. Lott reports, were asked the same questions in a Harris survey. "In most comparisons, Canadians were more satisfied than uninsured Americans, but just barely, and they were nowhere near as satisfied as insured Americans." Seventy-seven percent of insured Americans were happy with their ability to access timely non-emergency care. Only 60 percent of Canadians were. And while large majorities of Canadians say they prefer their system to ours, far more Canadians than Americans (26 percentage points difference) express frustration at not being able to "see top-quality medical specialists."


First off, I'm gonna suggest that the true end to that sentence...or the essence of that sentence...is in regard to seeing a top-quality medical specialist as fast as they want to...which is not always associated with medical urgency.

Now, an adequate comparator would seek to establish what percentage of Canadians would be happier with the current American system, cuz people are gonna bitch anyway...let's get it down to apples and apples. They are not identical experiences and cannot be compared as such and result in a meaningful statistic.




A 2001 survey of Canadian doctors, cited in "National Health Insurance in the United States and Canada: Race, Territory, and the Roots of Difference" by Gerard William Boychuk, found that they rated their system more critically than American doctors do ours.


Boychuk also states that the failure of the US to achieve a system of National Health Care is based upon race...interesting concept, that. Further, that Canadians self-identify with our health care system...it's right up there with hockey (but the Leafs still can't buy a Cup)...and it is a national unifying force.

He goes on to say "The US system is more fragmented...Coverage varies on a state-by-state basis from states with quasi-universal coverage to states where very significant portions of the population are left without any health care coverage. (158)" See, that's illegal in Canada.


Since the 2005 ruling by the Canadian Supreme Court that Quebec could not lawfully forbid a citizen from paying privately for medical care, private clinics have begun to spring up around Canada (though it varies by province).


Once again, let's cite your source, Boychuk: "...although in the case of Quevbec, the Supreme Court of Canada ruled that such bans, in a context of unreasonably long wait times, were contrary to the Quebec Charter...The court did not rule that the bans were contrary to the Canadian Charter..."

So then, in the proper context, even this is revealed to be a mechanism to get a stingy Provincial Government to pony up more money.


I am happy with my health care and I am glad the majority of Canadiens are satisfied with their health care.

You can have yours, I want to keep mine longer than just currently.

I want to be the one to worry about what happens to my families health care if I get offered a better job, not a government official.


Sure thing...just don't hold us up as a system gone wrong. Work it out on your own, and build something on positive merits, instead of constructing straw men wearing toques.



posted on Aug, 19 2009 @ 08:26 AM
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Originally posted by jdub297

Originally posted by Syphon
So, when one person comes along who's wife supposedly works in Canadian health care and starts dropping random claims that support your politics with zero evidence to back it up, that's hunky dory. But the multitude of other Canadians voicing their opinions that the system isn't imploding, but could be tweaked, is just blind patriotism and are to be ignored?

Sorry to burst your evidentiary bubble, but one firsthand account defeats all the anecdotes you can 'recall.'
There are no "multitude" Canadians here so far.


Well, if you can slide over to this thread:
www.abovetopsecret.com...
you can see some comments that have been coming in. Further, this here thread has not exactly been plump-full-to-burstin' with Canadians who wanna swap for your system.Just fix it yourself, and leave us out of it.

As to u2u's with the magic answer...have you tried emailing that to the White House, or to your lawmakers, instead? Have you started a thread here to spread the word? Cuz this Pythonesque debate you are conducting could be focused in a more constructive manner if you didn't expend so much effort into showing us how much you don't know about Canada.



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