Canadian Healthcare System "Imploding"

Originally posted by jdub297

Originally posted by intrepid
You're right, you can't evade the truth. No matter how much one would like to "fear-monger".

Is the current president of the CMA a "fearmonger?"

Is the incoming president of the CMA a "fearmonger?"

Doig, who has had a full-time family practice in Saskatoon for 30 years, acknowledges that when physicians have talked about changing the health-care system in the past, they've been accused of wanting an American-style structure. She insists that's not the case.

"It's not about choosing between an American system or a Canadian system," said Doig. "The whole thing is about looking at what other people do."

"That's called looking at the evidence, looking at how care is delivered and how care is paid for all around us (and) then saying 'Well, OK, that's good information. How do we make all of that work in the Canadian context? What do the Canadian people want?' "

Doig says there are some "very good things" about Canada's health-care system, but she points out that many people have stories about times when things didn't go well for them or their family.

"(Canadians) have to understand that the system that we have right now - if it keeps on going without change - is not sustainable," said Doig.

"They have to look at the evidence that's being presented and will be presented at (the meeting) and realize what Canada's doctors are trying to tell you, that you can get better care than what you're getting and we all have to participate in the discussion around how do we do that and of course how do we pay for it."

As you will note from your own source, it's talking about improving the system before it gets out of control. Not ditching the system. Did you even read the link I posted above?

Please explain, Mr. Moderator, how I or your health care providers are "fear mongers" by making this information known to ATS members.

jw

"Mr. Moderator?" The talk of a failed argument. I will answer though. Our health care providers want more, plain and simple. They should get it too imo. How are you "fear mongering"? Because you have no idea what the system is like. You are just pulling what you can from the internet because you fear what you don't know about and Obama is talking about universal care. Search and destroy is how I would put what you are doing. Fortunately there are many members here that DO know what this system is about.

Originally posted by jdub297

Originally posted by intrepid
You're right, you can't evade the truth. No matter how much one would like to "fear-monger".

Is the current president of the CMA a "fearmonger?"

Is the incoming president of the CMA a "fearmonger?"

Please explain, Mr. Moderator, how I or your health care providers are "fear mongers" by making this information known to ATS members.

jw

Both the current and incoming presidents of the cma are intersted in improving the system we use and are not trying to dismantle it but improve wait times. You are using portions of the articles provided to add to your own agenda, which is to make the average American oppose govt. run health care because you believe some of the recipients should not receive it whereas the majority of Canadians are happy with our system however there is room for improvement. You asked one of us to assume you have traveled but even if you have you have not spent any time talking to average Canadians about this issue. Our system is not imploding, our population is aging and the costs are higher not but it is not unsustainable.

Originally posted by habfan1968
...whereas the majority of Canadians are happy with our system

Not quite right. The VAST majority of Canadians are happy with the system.

Originally posted by jdub297

Originally posted by intrepid
You're right, you can't evade the truth. No matter how much one would like to "fear-monger".

Is the current president of the CMA a "fearmonger?"

Yes, actually. He owns five private radiology clinics and has a vested interest in promoting his style of practicing health care...and you can't do that by citing the satisfied ones, can you?

reply to post by jdub297


So is Obama back-peddling the HCR bill because of all the opposition from us? Or is it because he heard this was going to happen in Canada?

Impossible to sell the HR 3200 to anyone in office, especially the constituents they represent when we oppose it for this exact reason.

I posted that story and about a dozen others in a different thread yesterday. Bottom line - mathmatically socialist systems DO NOT WORK! You cannot rob from a few wealthy people to pay for the many. Two things happen - 1.) The wealthy no longer have any incentive to work hard to remain wealthy and 2.) As less and less wealth is available to fund these plans and, conversely, more and more people are in need of the services, the system collapses under its own weight.

The bottom line is this: Instead of spreading my wealth, why not spread my work ethic! It's cheaper and contributes to economic growth!

Originally posted by kozmo
The bottom line is this: Instead of spreading my wealth, why not spread my work ethic! It's cheaper and contributes to economic growth!

I see this point of view spewed over and over again any time the government makes a grab at the "wealthy" money. The folks who are less economically fortunate than yourself are no less "ethical" in their work habits or lazy or what ever other insult you want to toss their way. The simple fact of the matter is there isn't enough room at the top for everyone. If you managed to worm your way up the ladder, consider yourself lucky. The wealthy would be no where without the "lazy" people doing all of the work for them. They amass fortunes on the backs of our labor. Wouldn't it be nice if they gave a bit back to the people who keep them in their lofty positions?

Grr us damn brits and our rubbish, commie national health service! It must be awful right, i mean it's government run! The public hate it and want it to go private! What with those dank rooms, lit by a single swinging lightbulb, with cold porridge for every meal and the surgeons using cuttlery to operate and being paid less than a truck driver.

Oh wait

crooksandliars.com...


Seems actualy we kind of love the NHS and none of the above stuff i typed is true! We aren't to happy with American politicians poking fun at our system. A woman who is trying to improve the NHS (because things can always be improved) was rather unhappy her work had been used by Americans to trash the NHS.

Seriously now, if the system is so awful then why are British people fighting tooth and nail to keep it? Just ask yourself that question.

Originally posted by intrepid

Originally posted by habfan1968
...whereas the majority of Canadians are happy with our system

Not quite right. The VAST majority of Canadians are happy with the system.

Even if that was true, and the evidence is growing that it isn't. It looks to only get worse in the near future. Check out this article for details if you live in the Vancouver area.

article

VANCOUVER — Vancouver patients needing neurosurgery, treatment for vascular diseases and other medically necessary procedures can expect to wait longer for care, NDP health critic Adrian Dix said Monday.

Dix said a Vancouver Coastal Health Authority document shows it is considering chopping more than 6,000 surgeries in an effort to make up for a dramatic budgetary shortfall that could reach $200 million.

“This hasn’t been announced by the health authority … but these cuts are coming,” Dix said, citing figures gleaned from a leaked executive summary of “proposed VCH surgical reductions.”

The health authority confirmed the document is genuine, but said it represents ideas only.

“It is a planning document. It has not been approved or implemented,” said spokeswoman Anna Marie D’Angelo.

Dr. Brian Brodie, president of the BC Medical Association, called the proposed surgical cuts “a nightmare.”

“Why would you begin your cost-cutting measures on medically necessary surgery? I just can’t think of a worse place,” Brodie said.

Maybe it is currently only a "planning document", but look at where they started "planning" to make their cuts - necessary surgery.

And I can't think of a better example of what we could expect in the U.S. under obamacare when funding starts to get tight.



[edit on 8/18/2009 by centurion1211]

reply to post by centurion1211


The title of that article:

"Thousands of surgeries may be cut in Metro Vancouver, leaked paper reveals"

Note it says "may". Also note that Vancouver has less than 2% of Canada's population. Google can be a dangerous thing if logic is not applied.

reply to post by jdub297


Just like the US medical system...what leads you to believe I genuinely care?

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
Seriously now, if the system is so awful then why are British people fighting tooth and nail to keep it? Just ask yourself that question.

Near as I can tell, it's because we are, or suffer:
ignorant
liberal/socialist shills
(we) have no say in what the MPs and MEPs do anymore.
BANKRUPT
savage European witch-doctor
fool
very broken
your fantasy world
your wrong opinion
bogus

This from American posters who read something on the net and presume to say that they know more about our experience than we do.

Sure thing.

Originally posted by centurion1211

Originally posted by intrepid

Originally posted by habfan1968
...whereas the majority of Canadians are happy with our system

Not quite right. The VAST majority of Canadians are happy with the system.

Even if that was true, and the evidence is growing that it isn't. It looks to only get worse in the near future. Check out this article for details if you live in the Vancouver area.

article
And I can't think of a better example of what we could expect in the U.S. under obamacare when funding starts to get tight.

We've already talked that one to bits...you might like to read the thread and get with the programme, eh?

Originally posted by intrepid
reply to post by centurion1211

 

The title of that article:

"Thousands of surgeries may be cut in Metro Vancouver, leaked paper reveals"

Note it says "may". Also note that Vancouver has less than 2% of Canada's population. Google can be a dangerous thing if logic is not applied.

Ah, the tired, old "shoot the messenger" attempt.

Wasn't from Google, it was from the Vancouver Sun.

Even you must realize that everything that ever gets done starts from a plan that "may get done", or not. Most people would think it was telling that necessary surgeries were included in this plan. Now, sometimes plans like this are purposely leaked as "trial balloons" to see if there is significant opposition or not, and it may be the case with this one.

Whatever the case, the significant issue here is that people with the power to negatively effect healthcare under the canadian system were even thinking of doing such a thing. And also that U.S. government bureaucrats could quite conceivably do the same thing under obamacare.

[edit on 8/18/2009 by centurion1211]

Originally posted by centurion1211
Even you must realize that everything that ever gets done starts from a plan that "may get done", or not.

And not everything that comes from a plan gets done...I bring up Northwoods where we dealt with this (already).

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck

Originally posted by centurion1211
Even you must realize that everything that ever gets done starts from a plan that "may get done", or not.

And not everything that comes from a plan gets done...I bring up Northwoods where we dealt with this (already).

So, it doesn't trouble you at all that they are even considering doing this, or are you simply one of those defend it (whatever it is) at all costs no matter what the facts are types? We still have a few "my president - right or wrong" types down here, too. No one usually pays them much attention. Work that way in canada, too?

reply to post by intrepid


It's just "yes" or "no." Is the current president of the CMA 'fearmongering?"

Is the incoming president of the CMA 'fearmongering?"

I do not write these reports.

I am only relaying them to ATS members. Some of them may be concerned about what one of the 'models' of "healthcare reform" looks like in practice.

Tell me what your idea of US healthcare should be. In at least an outline form.

I believe that people should be able to bargain for basic and preventive services with tax-free dollars.

Catastrophic injuries and serious illness should be paid for collectively through gov't., employer, and individual resources.

High-risk coverage (skydiving, smoking, obesity) would be available from an appropriately priced pool.

What have you proposed?

Mr. Moderator, please give us guidance.

jw

Originally posted by centurion1211
So, it doesn't trouble you at all that they are even considering doing this, or are you simply one of those defend it (whatever it is) at all costs no matter what the facts are types? We still have a few "my president - right or wrong" types down here, too. No one usually pays them much attention. Work that way in canada, too?

Nope but we KNOW what we are talking about. This wouldn't even be an issue if it wasn't for Obama proposing universal care. You wouldn't care less but people are trying to take iscolated incidents to cast a pall on our system. Our system works by and large. It could be better but there's not much wrong with it.

Originally posted by habfan1968
Both the current and incoming presidents of the cma are intersted in improving the system we use and are not trying to dismantle it but improve wait times. You are using portions of the articles provided to add to your own agenda, which is to make the average American oppose govt. run health care because you believe some of the recipients should not receive it whereas the majority of Canadians are happy with our system however there is room for improvement.

I neither wrote these articles nor spoke for the current and incoming presidents of the Canadian Medical Association. Please take your displeasure up with the appropriate sources.

The current debate involves my personal freedom and my personal finances. These statements are relevant and should be shared.

Why are you against free and open discussion of all sides of this important ( for me) issue?

jw

Originally posted by jdub297
reply to post by intrepid

 

It's just "yes" or "no." Is the current president of the CMA 'fearmongering?"

Yes. Johnny answered that above:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

I am only relaying them to ATS members. Some of them may be concerned about what one of the 'models' of "healthcare reform" looks like in practice.

No, you are using slanted and inaccurate aspects of our system.

Tell me what your idea of US healthcare should be. In at least an outline form.

I really don't care as it doesn't affect me in the least.

Mr. Moderator, please give us guidance.

jw

I'm not qualified to discuss this because I'm a staffer, seems important to you though , I'm qualified because I'm Canadian and I know how our system works.

Originally posted by Nivcharah
reply to post by jdub297

 

So is Obama back-peddling the HCR bill because of all the opposition from us? Or is it because he heard this was going to happen in Canada?

Obama does not care what ANYONE, anywhere, thinks. He has hid own agenda.

He is looking for a 'solution' that will save "reform" regardless of the details.

jw