Originally posted by deadline527


So because I create my own second life in my dreams that in itself is a sin? That makes no sense. I live my life as a good person, and when I dream, maybe I like to be a little evil and do the things that we are not allowed to do in real life because there is no consequence in your dreams. People who play video games are essentially creating their own realities within the game, does that mean they are sinners as well?

Here is WHY it is a sin - it sounds are if you are consciously structuring your dreams so that you can commit these egregious acts in them. That is a sin because you are willing it to happen. If you were just having dreams in which you commited a crime or a sin in some way, those would not be a sin against your soul because it is not the result of your conscious will.. Because you are creating a reality in which it's ok for you to sin and effecting that reality with your will, rest assured you are sinning.

To clarify here

If you are dreaming in a conscious state where you are in control of your actions then you can be held accountable for the things you do as sins. They at the least constitute as impure thoughts which you deliberately decided to have

If you are unconscious and not in control of your thoughts, then I dont see any sin there. It's simply your id working overtime, not something you are responsible for

Originally posted by pavlovsdog

Originally posted by deadline527


So because I create my own second life in my dreams that in itself is a sin? That makes no sense. I live my life as a good person, and when I dream, maybe I like to be a little evil and do the things that we are not allowed to do in real life because there is no consequence in your dreams. People who play video games are essentially creating their own realities within the game, does that mean they are sinners as well?

Here is WHY it is a sin - it sounds are if you are consciously structuring your dreams so that you can commit these egregious acts in them. That is a sin because you are willing it to happen. If you were just having dreams in which you commited a crime or a sin in some way, those would not be a sin against your soul because it is not the result of your conscious will.. Because you are creating a reality in which it's ok for you to sin and effecting that reality with your will, rest assured you are sinning.

But that reality does not effect anything. I do not create the reality so to speak, where I end up in my dreams is something I have no control over usually - but what I do in them dreams is unhindered and endless. If I find myself over an ocean, and I decide to drain all the water from that ocean, who does that bother? If I find myself outside a city, and I decide I want that city to no longer exist - that is my will, and in my dreams, my will be done. It effects no one negatively, and only serves to actually make my life more enjoyable. I love dreaming, and wouldn't give it up for anything, its something that we all do, just I have a bit more control over.

I suppose ultimately the answer to that question would depend on your religion.

If you are a Christian, which I assume from the use of the word "sin" that you are, then it would seem the answer would be "yes." You could sin in a dream if you were "lucid."

Clearly some sins, in the most explicit examples of "sin" in the Bible, (those in the ten commandments,) are sins that occur only in the mind. Such as the coveting of thy neighbors wife, house, oxen, etc.

Therefore, sin that occurs only in the mind can be a sin. So, if you are Christian, and in a lucid dream, (ie; YOU are in control of what you are doing in the dream) you must be willing the action. If you are willing an action you believe to be a sin, then YOU the one with the free will, are committing the sin, regardless of the fact that no material consequence that you know of comes of it.

Isn't a SIN something that is effected or effects something else in the physical world. Go over the list of SINs and then re-assess the question. If you Lucid dream about you stealing your neighbor's 56" plasma and in the dream you steal it but when you awake you find that you have not stolen it and it is still in your neighbor's house then NO you have not actually SIN's.
That brings us to the topic of thought being SIN also. IF you lucid dream you are knowingly performing these actions in a lucid state. but in a regular dream you can not control what is happening.
So therefore I guess the question would be , IF you lucid dream and sin then if you believe thoughts of SIN are SIN then yes you have.

Let's elaborate upon this though and see if we can break it down some more and get to the bottom of this. Very interesting topic though as some people claim to use lucid dreaming for SINfull purposes.

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
I suppose ultimately the answer to that question would depend on your religion.

If you are a Christian, which I assume from the use of the word "sin" that you are, then it would seem the answer would be "yes." You could sin in a dream if you were "lucid."

Clearly some sins, in the most explicit examples of "sin" in the Bible, (those in the ten commandments,) are sins that occur only in the mind. Such as the coveting of thy neighbors wife, house, oxen, etc.

Therefore, sin that occurs only in the mind can be a sin. So, if you are Christian, and in a lucid dream, (ie; YOU are in control of what you are doing in the dream) you must be willing the action. If you are willing an action you believe to be a sin, then YOU the one with the free will, are committing the sin, regardless of the fact that no material consequence that you know of comes of it.

That was a extremely good explanation and I value your input. I was raised christian but I believe that there is flaws inherently in every religion. I have what I would sort of see as my own belief structure, yet still centered around one "God" if you will. I take parts of christianity, buddism, taoism, and any other peaceful religion. I believe strongly in karma yet do not mind if I dont get paid back so to speak. I believe that you should treat everything with importance and respect, and should always try to surround yourself with positive thoughts and actions.

But lets say I decide I want to be completely and utterly demonic in a dream.. It is still a dream and it carries no consequence and bears no weight in reality.

If a person makes a choice to commit a sinful act, then he has in effect 'sinned'. The sin isnt so much about the act itself, but rather allowing your mind and soul to travel down the path that would allow you to make that choice.

Proverbs 6:18 says An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,

This is in a chapter telling us what the most wicked men do and what things are considered abominations to god. Therefore this is not out of context.

Originally posted by pavlovsdog
These things would be like choosing to watch child pornography, or choosing to encourage the killing of someone. Certainly both would be sins.

I would hope these would be sins in ANYONES upbringing. These two things would be supporting extremely negative behavior that effects people in negative ways, but also, that is strictly localized to this reality. I think the dream world is there sort of as our playground, to do as we please without fear of repercussions or judgment. I would much rather have someone doing such things in their dream, then to ever even think about something of that in reality.

Originally posted by pavlovsdog
If a person makes a choice to commit a sinful act, then he has in effect 'sinned'. The sin isnt so much about the act itself, but rather allowing your mind and soul to travel down the path that would allow you to make that choice.

Proverbs 6:18 says An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,

This is in a chapter telling us what the most wicked men do and what things are considered abominations to god. Therefore this is not out of context.

I think the problem here is some people take the bible too literally. Some things God does in the bible make what I do in my dreams seem like childs play. It all depends on how you interpret the information after reading it. Also, the bible was written by MAN, the king james version was even more so edited by MAN. This in itself creates a huge number of faults. I really do wish we could get a bible written straight from the source.

Does it make it ok for God to sin because he is the one who created this reality? So in a sense, why is it not ok for me to sin within my own dream reality?



[edit on 10-4-2008 by deadline527]

[edit on 10-4-2008 by deadline527]

Originally posted by deadline527
Is it possible to sin while lucidly dreaming?

Of course not, just dream up a realm where whatever it is you want to do is not considered to be a sin, and then it won't be. When I am experiencing a lucid dream, I like to use my lucid powers of imagination to pretend I'm Jesus or a magical wizard and get all the non-lucid inhabitants of that sin free realm to worship me like a GOD, ha.

Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1995

1849: Sin is an offense against reason, truth, and right conscience[]

1855: Venial sin allows charity to subsist, even though it offends and wounds it.

1856: []when the sinners will is set upon something that of its nature involves a disorder, but is not opposed to the love of God and neighbour, such as thoughtless chatter or immoderate laughter and the like, such sins are venial.

1860: Unintentional Ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of grave sin. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man.

1865: Sin creates a proclivity to sin; it engenders vice by repetition of the same acts. This results in perverse inclination which clout conscience and corrupt the concrete judgement of good and evil. Thus sin tends to reproduce itself and reinforce itself, but it cannot destroy the moral sense at its root.

If you choose to direct your lucid dreams away from the topics of HOPE, FAITH, OR CHARITY... then they are dreams of vice; sin.

Thoughts become words,
words become deeds;
dreams thereby are the seeds of change.

I am,

Sri Oracle

Originally posted by Sri Oracle
Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1995

1849: Sin is an offense against reason, truth, and right conscience[]

1855: Venial sin allows charity to subsist, even though it offends and wounds it.

1856: []when the sinners will is set upon something that of its nature involves a disorder, but is not opposed to the love of God and neighbour, such as thoughtless chatter or immoderate laughter and the like, such sins are venial.

1860: Unintentional Ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of grave sin. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man.

1865: Sin creates a proclivity to sin; it engenders vice by repetition of the same acts. This results in perverse inclination which clout conscience and corrupt the concrete judgement of good and evil. Thus sin tends to reproduce itself and reinforce itself, but it cannot destroy the moral sense at its root.

If you choose to direct your lucid dreams away from the topics of HOPE, FAITH, OR CHARITY... then they are dreams of vice; sin.

Thoughts become words,
words become deeds;
dreams thereby are the seeds of change.

I am,

Sri Oracle

One of the best responses all day! Thanks so much for your post Sri!

Originally posted by deadline527
I really do wish we could get a bible written straight from the source.

That would be your conscience; its right there, just listen.

Sri Oracle

Originally posted by Sri Oracle

Originally posted by deadline527
I really do wish we could get a bible written straight from the source.

That would be your conscience; its right there, just listen.

Sri Oracle

If my conscience is my bible, it must be billions of pages long, lol I feel so bad if I have to trap a mouse in a mousetrap that I went and bought "humane" mouse traps, hah. I really do have quite a conscience but I wouldent want it any other way, it keeps me positive and helps me make the right decision no matter what the situation may be.

Originally posted by deadline527
I feel so bad if I have to trap a mouse in a mousetrap that I went and bought "humane" mouse traps, hah.

My cat left a dead rat at the foot of my bed for me to wake up to.
I buried it under a nectarine tree in The Garden.

Break free of the desire for outcome;
become agent to nature as it takes its course.

Feel good; no worries...

Sri Oracle

Originally posted by Sri Oracle
I buried it under a nectarine tree in The Garden.

Just a question, why is The Garden capitalized? Does it have any special meaning to you?