Can you SIN while lucidly dreaming?

Originally posted by Throbber
reply to post by deadline527

 

I'm fairly certain there are a few sayings that would share perspective on that point.

Infact, i'll share with you a little something i've learned - it isn't big or grand, but a simple truth.

There are countless tidbits of wisdom that have filtered into society, from sources unknown - sayings like "Don't put all your eggs in once basket" and "Curiosity killed the cat" are a very obvious forms of this; they can also be used as a metaphor for a great many different situations.

Oh, for the lost art of simple wisdom!

edit; as to your question, it takes experience and understanding to know the answer.

Remember, the path is not surrounded by limitations, you can walk back to where you started, or simply cut across the lawn to a different path.

This does, however - lead to gaps in your understanding and experience, just like any learned skill or trait, and it takes time to truly appreciate how much you can lose or forget.

"Walk before you can run" is another one.


[edit on 10-4-2008 by Throbber]

I love philosophy.

Too bad most of the population decides to disregard it in their every day lives. There is so much you can learn from such a simple saying, and apply it to many different situations throughout life.

reply to post by deadline527


Philosophy may be one of the few things that will survive alongside human society until the very end.

I would imagine even the last man on earth would spend his days philosophizing on how the world came to be in such a state, or perhaps even simply remembering days gone by - now and again saying "Ah" as the peices fall together.

Even if there are people who do not acknowledge this fact, they do not realise that inside their very subconcious lies the beating heart of an unknown wisdom.

I truly believe that in terms of wisdom, all of us - from the most demented psychopath to the most calm and patient man or woman among us, every single one of us is capable of philosophising.

Oops, i got all idealistic.

Originally posted by Throbber
reply to post by deadline527

 

Philosophy may be one of the few things that will survive alongside human society until the very end.

I would imagine even the last man on earth would spend his days philosophizing on how the world came to be in such a state, or perhaps even simply remembering days gone by - now and again saying "Ah" as the peices fall together.

Even if there are people who do not acknowledge this fact, they do not realise that inside their very subconcious lies the beating heart of an unknown wisdom.

I truly believe that in terms of wisdom, all of us - from the most demented psychopath to the most calm and patient man or woman among us, every single one of us is capable of philosophising.

Oops, i got all idealistic.

I am already philosophizing how this world came to be so negative and spiteful, and we have a long way to go. Time for a brake so I can philosophize about all that has been said Much appreciated for the insightful words and great converation!!

[edit on 10-4-2008 by deadline527]

[edit on 10-4-2008 by deadline527]

reply to post by deadline527


"A single stain turns white to grey" would be an appropiate phrase to coin, if i knew the precise combination of wording - i'm pretty sure there's a saying out there along those lines.

I believe our problem lies within our belief that society should be perfect - after all, we elect politicians based on that belief.

edit; roger that, i'm starting to go off on tangents anywho.

Thanks for putting me back in touch with reality.



[edit on 10-4-2008 by Throbber]

pavlov:

Lucid Dreaming isn't reconcilable with the Christian faith.

i saw you say this a couple of times, are you implying that god frowns upon being consciously aware of a dream state? i'll assume i'm misinterpreting that statement for now since it makes no sense whatsoever. later on you imply that you doubt the OP's claims that he even does it. i can assure you it's a very real thing, i have done it myself many times. there's nothing spiritual, new-age, occult, etc about it. another comment that caught my attention is that we shouldn't speak to the dead...so does that mean we shouldn't pray to jesus? is it bad to address a dead relative and say "i love you, so-and-so, i hope i'm making you proud"? i say humbug. =) i think conversations with the dead in dreams serve to give ourselves insight by externalizing and objectifying the questions we need answered.

anyway, the trick is staying asleep once i become conscious. for me it seems like any attempt to drastically change any aspect of my dreamworld makes it slip away and i wake up, but i attribute it to just being excited. =) while lucid i tend to stick to things that aren't even possible in reality - like changing one thing into another, flying, walking through walls, etc. i'm not much interested in "antics" while lucid.

dreams are our minds' playgrounds. it's how our brain sorts things out at the end of the day. lucid dreaming is merely a step beyond imagination as i see it. if it's wrong by one's morals to imagine it, then it's wrong to do it while lucid. however, it all comes down to the extremely subjective definition of wrong. if i know it's wrong to do something in real life, but i'm ok with doing those things in an environment that has no detrimental effect on anyone, and i'm willing to live with how it will make me feel, then what's the problem? as said above, it's nothing different than a video game. as long as you're able to separate dream from reality, then i say do as you please.

I wish I could have worded a response so direct and exactly how I was trying to come across, glad to see you agree and appreciate the time you took to read the thread

Dreaming is my video game - some people kill, rob, steal, blow up, etc.. people in video games with no effect on real life - If someone was to do these things while lucidly dreaming and can separate reality from fantasy, is it wrong to do? I do not believe so.

PS : I do not go around in my dreams mutilating and decimating bodies, but if I wanted to lets say destroy a whole planet into its basic quantum building blocks while dreaming - its still just a dream.

I'll admit i've stolen more than a few times in my dreams, if it counts for anything.

Weirdly, i stole videogames.



edit; i don't even consider petty theft to be that bad in reality anyway, so i'll be damned if i'm not going to do it in my dreams.

[edit on 10-4-2008 by Throbber]

I know what deadline527 is talking about. I used to have lucid dreaming all the time as a teenager, now not at all.
It all start when i was kid who had lots of nightmares about monsters and witches, etc and didn't know what to do. I used to wake up vomiting because of it all the time. so i made a promise to myself that the next time i dream would be the time I would realize that its just a dream. then my next nightmare turned into an instant joke after i gained consciousness while i was still dreaming for the first time, and with my mind i transformed every monster into a wimp. so lucid dreaming in a way saved my life from being eaten, stabbed, shot, plane crash, drawn and so on to the level that my mind didnt even bother anymore in trying to make a nightmare. to this day i get no nightmares at all except for once a year or so.

about the sin thing, well i dont know, why would anyone sin in a dream in the first place as i said the dream changes to accommodate your thoughts so if u need say a tv you will already have one. and If you want to be with a model. pingo, nothing to it. so what sins can be in dreams? when married people dream about having sex with another person, is that cheating? but you say u cant control that but what if the same couple are lucid dreaming would that be cheating now? well i say no because the mind now matter what still views it as a dream even if it knows that its just a dream its still the same concept with the same rules applied so the mind would be unable to think rationally or logically since these normal abilities are muted in any dream-state. you aare just left with basic instinct and for lucid dreaming thats usually the urge to keep the dream going now matter what, the DONT WAKE UP! mentality. so in a way you fight to survive.

[edit on 10-4-2008 by DuneKnight]

Originally posted by DuneKnight
you aare just left with basic instinct and for lucid dreaming thats usually the urge to keep the dream going now matter what, the DONT WAKE UP! mentality. so in a way you fight to survive.

You remember how i was stating how i used to have dreams of getting stabbed, crushed, eaten alive, etc - It's because of that mentality.

It's probably because i turned into a pacifist one time...

Originally posted by deadline527
Yes it is, but in my reasoning...

Sin is something that negatively effects something, someone, somewhere. When you are dreaming, technically, you affect nothing. So all of your actions while dreaming consciously.. which is much different then a regular dream... carry no consequence. You wake up, then carry on with the rest of your life.

Perhaps...

but you may be effecting yourself...

thy body is a temple... or something like that?

If you purposefully sin while Lucid Dreaming, perhaps youll like it...
If you like it, perhaps youll keep trying to lucid dream so you can commit the same sin.
Perhaps some time down the road, youll find yourself in a situation like that of your dream and your so used to sinning that you do it in real life...

Its just a maybe.

but I think that purposefully sinning may effect you in real life.

reply to post by deadline527


Jas 4:13 Come now, those saying, Today or tomorrow we will go into such a city and spend a year there, and we will trade and will make a profit,
Jas 4:14 who do not know of the morrow. For what is your life? For it is a vapor, which appears for a little time, and then disappears.
Jas 4:15 Instead of you saying, If the Lord wills, we shall live and do this or that.
Jas 4:16 But now you boast in your presumptions. All such boasting is evil.
Jas 4:17 Therefore to him who knows to do good, and does not do it, to him it is sin.

Being one that has/does have multiple dreams, will defend that you can NOT and will not 'actually' sin during a dream. Why? Because it completely has to involvement the human will. Now, in the dream, it is possible that you see might see yourself sinning, but .. I would take that as a warning to be careful NOT to get in the same situation as you found yourself in the dream. If you do, RUN !!!! Otherwise, you'll be tempted.

For example, I had a dream, during a time that was personally stressful in my last marriage, that I was playing with a beautiful snake. As I looked at it, it was fairly small with a head which was proportionate to it's body; it wound around my forearm and suddenly, it opened it's mouth and it's mouth became bigger than it's head! It had huge fangs and it's body gripped my forearm so hard I wasn't able to get it off. It sunk it's fangs deep into my hand between my forefinger and thumb and I could see the poison pump straight into my vein and go up my arm.

I tried to pull it's head out but, to no avail until the last drop of poison was injected and it just fell off. I glanced up and saw my wife standing there off in the distance, and never came to my rescue.. and then I sat straight up out of the deep sleep and grabbed my hand to see if there was any mark. It was that real!

Moral of the Dream: Do NOT even think of playing around in your marriage, regardless of how bad it may be, because it WILL bite you eventually.

Did I sin in the dream, perhaps. However, it didn't take much deep insight to know that I was in real trouble if I didn't stop was I was doing/thinking about in real life! I had a choice to make. Either stop playing or keep playing with the snake in RL. If continued to play with the snake in RL, I would be sinning (which is the poison)

oooookay so i get the impression that in your dream you cheated on your wife, but i think you skipped that and went straight to the snake. that brings up a good point though - if you have the conscious desire to cheat on your spouse in a dream then i think that's no different than wanting it while awake. in that situation you would need to take a good look at your relationship. that doesn't mean there's anything inherently wrong with going lucid and doing things you normally wouldn't do, but it can be revealing of some hidden or repressed feelings/urges/curiosities.

At the risk of being too long winded and verbose (as I'm often apt to do), I'll try and put forth just a few reasons that Lucid Dreaming and Christianity are not compatible.

1. Lucid Dreaming is learning how to create your own reality. If you can create your own reality then you are not subject to the pre destination that Christianity teaches.
2. The Bible teaches that God communicates to us thru our dreams. Do you think he wants that open channel mucked up with YOUR efforts?
3. Lucid Dreaming can be a conduit to other astral entities which could be demons or devils, ghosts or spirits, all according to how you perceive them, it's akin to using a Ouiji board.

reply to post by an0maly33


It's complicated to explain entirely, but suffice it to say, I was in a very depressed state and found myself wanting to go back to the person I felt love and respect from.

Komodo, do you generally love snakes? because if i seen a snake in a dream i will without hesitation run away and get spooked. snakes are a big time scare for normal people yet you said you played with it until it changed. how odd you must be a snake trainer or something. and don't cheat on your wife, thats just bad voodoo waiting to happen. i wonder if you ever told her about that dream of yours. I think people should be more open with their significant other.

reply to post by deadline527


You must have some personal experience with this sort of thing.
*SNIP*

I do not think it is a sin but these people will respond by not ever coming into your dreams.
I guess they find someone else to have a dream experience with.
I have come to thinking of these people as being just as real as someone you might run into in the vitual world, like in a on-line game or something.
For example if you are playing on a server where you have your team mates shooting you for fun, you will find another server to play on.

Mod Edit: Please read your u2u... Thanks

[edit on 4/10/08 by FredT]

Originally posted by pavlovsdog
At the risk of being too long winded and verbose (as I'm often apt to do), I'll try and put forth just a few reasons that Lucid Dreaming and Christianity are not compatible.

1. Lucid Dreaming is learning how to create your own reality. If you can create your own reality then you are not subject to the pre destination that Christianity teaches.
2. The Bible teaches that God communicates to us thru our dreams. Do you think he wants that open channel mucked up with YOUR efforts?
3. Lucid Dreaming can be a conduit to other astral entities which could be demons or devils, ghosts or spirits, all according to how you perceive them, it's akin to using a Ouiji board.

So because I create my own second life in my dreams that in itself is a sin? That makes no sense. I live my life as a good person, and when I dream, maybe I like to be a little evil and do the things that we are not allowed to do in real life because there is no consequence in your dreams. People who play video games are essentially creating their own realities within the game, does that mean they are sinners as well?

Originally posted by Komodo
reply to post by deadline527

 

Jas 4:13 Come now, those saying, Today or tomorrow we will go into such a city and spend a year there, and we will trade and will make a profit,
Jas 4:14 who do not know of the morrow. For what is your life? For it is a vapor, which appears for a little time, and then disappears.
Jas 4:15 Instead of you saying, If the Lord wills, we shall live and do this or that.
Jas 4:16 But now you boast in your presumptions. All such boasting is evil.
Jas 4:17 Therefore to him who knows to do good, and does not do it, to him it is sin.

Being one that has/does have multiple dreams, will defend that you can NOT and will not 'actually' sin during a dream. Why? Because it completely has to involvement the human will. Now, in the dream, it is possible that you see might see yourself sinning, but .. I would take that as a warning to be careful NOT to get in the same situation as you found yourself in the dream. If you do, RUN !!!! Otherwise, you'll be tempted.

For example, I had a dream, during a time that was personally stressful in my last marriage, that I was playing with a beautiful snake. As I looked at it, it was fairly small with a head which was proportionate to it's body; it wound around my forearm and suddenly, it opened it's mouth and it's mouth became bigger than it's head! It had huge fangs and it's body gripped my forearm so hard I wasn't able to get it off. It sunk it's fangs deep into my hand between my forefinger and thumb and I could see the poison pump straight into my vein and go up my arm.

I tried to pull it's head out but, to no avail until the last drop of poison was injected and it just fell off. I glanced up and saw my wife standing there off in the distance, and never came to my rescue.. and then I sat straight up out of the deep sleep and grabbed my hand to see if there was any mark. It was that real!

Moral of the Dream: Do NOT even think of playing around in your marriage, regardless of how bad it may be, because it WILL bite you eventually.

Did I sin in the dream, perhaps. However, it didn't take much deep insight to know that I was in real trouble if I didn't stop was I was doing/thinking about in real life! I had a choice to make. Either stop playing or keep playing with the snake in RL. If continued to play with the snake in RL, I would be sinning (which is the poison)

It seems as if your dream you are not controlling it, more or less like you are watching a movie so it sounds. As for when I am lucid in dreams, it is no different then us sitting here living our lives, my dreams are just like another part of my day. If I wanted, I am sure I could even go on ATS in my dream if I found myself near a computer, lol. There is a difference between a dream where you are the observer, and a dream where you are the creator.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by deadline527

 

Quote removed to comply with the removal of the original post above

I HOPE you are talking about getting away with it' in your dreams and not in your daily life.

I'm speachless,, reallly.


Mod Edit - had to remove offending quote and your reference to it.

[edit on 10-4-2008 by Crakeur]

Originally posted by pavlovsdog

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by deadline527

 

see mod edit above

I HOPE you are talking about 'getting away with it' in your dreams and not in your daily life.

I'm speachless,, reallly.

I was a little caught off guard by that as well, but yes, I do believe he meant in his dreams. I hope so at least.

[edit on 10-4-2008 by Crakeur]