Mountain of the Holy Cross”
Holy Cross Mountain is located in the Northern part of the Sawatch Mountain Range in Colorado, Elevation: 14,005 ft. Holy Cross was first photographed in the 1870’s. Due to erosion and a dryer climate, the cross shaped snowfield is not as distinctive today as it was in the 1800’s.

the answer to your question is yes, even in dreams they are considered sins. it does not matter what it is, you dream it then you have sinned. I know I sometimes think of off the wall stuff when bored and could be mistaken as I dont know what.

[edit on 10-4-2008 by John McCain]

Originally posted by ChilledVoodoo
Mountain of the Holy Cross�
Holy Cross Mountain is located in the Northern part of the Sawatch Mountain Range in Colorado, Elevation: 14,005 ft. Holy Cross was first photographed in the 1870�s. Due to erosion and a dryer climate, the cross shaped snowfield is not as distinctive today as it was in the 1800�s.

I think you're meaning to post on the riddle about the three mountains looking like a cross, wrong thread I was very interested in that one too though, lol, hope you guys get it!

[edit on 10-4-2008 by deadline527]

Originally posted by deadline527


Is it possible to sin while lucidly dreaming?

If you are full aware that you are dreaming and use this to your advantage to do as you please no matter what the action may be, is this wrong? If you knew for a fact, that there was no consequences at all from your actions, things you would never do in real life because it would be wrong, all become viable.

Does this equate to a sin

sorry, not going to read the entire thread for this easy answer.

1) if you have free will in a dream my friend then you are on your way to immortality.
2) If you have free will in a dream then YES of course you can sin, because sin is nothing more than choosing not to love.
3) I'm sure someone has pointed out the whole "in thought and deed" angle.
I bet there has even been people claiming that they DO have free will in dreams and have exercised it. Dream on...pun intended.

But... If there are people anywhere out there that can do this then please try this experiment.......

Try and play 72 holes of golf... 4 rounds... in a single night and see if you can remember every shot of every hole.....if you can then you experienced at least 12 hours of "life" in lets say you sleep 6 hours. you gained 6 hours of experience.
From there you could expand time even further and then get to the point you could live at least a year in your dream marked off by experiences and memories while only have been sleeping for 6 hours!

So if anyone in this thread....(I told you I haven't read anything other than the first OP) has claimed that they have freewill while dreaming then...they are on their way to immortality, (practicaly speaking)

I have tried....and the moment I make a "choice" I start waking up. At that point I can create the setting for my next dream but as soon as I attempt to think or do any type of freewill movement, I wake up even more.
....I tell ya what... if you are interested in learning how to remember every single dream you have, every single night, respond to this post and I'll tell you how to start...otherwise if I have said the same thing as anyone else that has posted...then ignore...sorry I just didn't have the time to read this thread.

Originally posted by Res Ipsa
1) if you have free will in a dream my friend then you are on your way to immortality.

How do you figure that?

I have free will in some of my dreams, not all (wish I did) but a good portion of them I am able to lucidly do what I will. How does this equate to immortality? I will still die in the same amount of time as if I diddnt have lucid dreams...

As for your explanation, thats just like watching a movie. The next day, if someone mentions the movie, you remembered the whole 2 hours in less then a second. This actually goes into the whole "alien writing" subject but thats a whole nother can of worms, lol.

I have tried....and the moment I make a "choice" I start waking up. At that point I can create the setting for my next dream but as soon as I attempt to think or do any type of freewill movement, I wake up even more.
....I tell ya what... if you are interested in learning how to remember every single dream you have, every single night, respond to this post and I'll tell you how to start...otherwise if I have said the same thing as anyone else that has posted...then ignore...sorry I just didn't have the time to read this thread.

Keep at it. Try to not get too excited when you realize you made your own choice in the dream. It is almost like flicking a light switch from off to on, you suddenly realize, "hey, im dreaming... " then usually proceed with flying since thats what most people always want to try. I know its the first thing I did, lol. Once you can keep your excitement under control, just keep at it, and eventually you can stay lucid for quite a while. I would say my lucidity lasts anywhere from ten minutes to an hour, depending on if I get woken up or have to go to the bathroom in the middle of the night, lol, so annoying. You have your foot in the door, now you just need to get the rest of your body through.

[edit on 10-4-2008 by deadline527]

Although some nights I have been able to successively enter a lucid state multiple times after waking in the middle of the night. I pretty much slept in till almost 2 PM because of this, lol.

[edit on 10-4-2008 by deadline527]

Dreams are interesting. In my opinion, Lucid Dreams are dreams we have figured out how to control by unlocking some unconscious part of our brain. Not everyone Lucid Dreams. Just some people. Dreams with lots of color, sounds etc...

I do not Lucid Dream Often, but when I do, it usually involves me flying (in circles), breathing under water...etc.. I think Dreams are environments created by our brains, for our minds to play in, while the rest of the body is sleeping/rejuvinating. Afterall, while you're busy getting all of that sleep, your Mind needs SOMETHING to process. It needs to do something. It needs to be entertained.

So I think that if you do something in a Lucid Dream, the act hasn't "actually" been done, therefore, no Sin has been comitted. Some would suggest that impure thoughts are a "sin" and as such, a Lucid Dream acts upon an impure thought, which ultimately is a Sin... However, I believe that a Thought, is just a thought; It is not an action. Nothing has physically been done. You are still laying in your bed with the covers up under your chin.

Freud would suggest that dreams are our unconscious desires being fulfilled. If this is the case, for some, unconscious desires could be "sin". But that also brings up the question of Sin....What is "Sin". It depends on your own personal beliefs, as to how you define sin.

Originally posted by CA_Orot
Dreams are interesting. In my opinion, Lucid Dreams are dreams we have figured out how to control by unlocking some unconscious part of our brain. Not everyone Lucid Dreams. Just some people. Dreams with lots of color, sounds etc...

I do not Lucid Dream Often, but when I do, it usually involves me flying (in circles), breathing under water...etc.. I think Dreams are environments created by our brains, for our minds to play in, while the rest of the body is sleeping/rejuvinating. Afterall, while you're busy getting all of that sleep, your Mind needs SOMETHING to process. It needs to do something. It needs to be entertained.

So I think that if you do something in a Lucid Dream, the act hasn't "actually" been done, therefore, no Sin has been comitted. Some would suggest that impure thoughts are a "sin" and as such, a Lucid Dream acts upon an impure thought, which ultimately is a Sin... However, I believe that a Thought, is just a thought; It is not an action. Nothing has physically been done. You are still laying in your bed with the covers up under your chin.

Freud would suggest that dreams are our unconscious desires being fulfilled. If this is the case, for some, unconscious desires could be "sin". But that also brings up the question of Sin....What is "Sin". It depends on your own personal beliefs, as to how you define sin.

That is pretty much my thoughts when I started this thread. That no sin has actually been committed, you are still lying in your bed sleeping while your dog is busy licking your face or something, lol. Very informative post and appreciate the time you took to shine some insight into the thread.

Depends on your definition of Sin?

What is wrong for some is ok for others.

If your referring to doing something wrong for you personally that you normally wouldn't do while your awake when your asleep then it all comes down to this.

Are you aware of what your doing? (Consciously aware?)

Do you know it's just a dream or are you doing things unsure or unaware not knowing if your asleep or awake?

Or are things just happening that you don't have control over then you wake up realizing that you for instance cheated on your wife?

I think many of us have cheated on our wife or husband or even betrayed our best friends and family in our sleep but we perhaps were not fully conscious of the decisions we were making so I wouldn't think were held accountable in those situstions.

However when we are fully awake and aware of things, I think you could cheat on your wife or husband by just thinking about it.

You see someone your attracted to and imagine perhaps, or you think if only I could get with that hot chick or stud I would. lol

Thinking about it in your mind consciously awake and willing to do it is just about the same thing as if you did, your really half way there in a way.

Lets say you did see some hot chick or stud and decided you wanted some action with em which would be breaking your vows or sinning against what you believe in, then lets say that person came up to you and invited you over and you went, you know that what you just imagined in your head would happen and if you already thought it out in your mind and were willing to procede in your mind then there's no stopping you now.

So I think, imagining something while awake in your head is close to the same thing unless of course you stopped yourself at the last minute.

If thats the case, good boy...Ruff ruff

Just A thought!

Originally posted by pavlovsdog
I'm not sure how far I want to take you into this rabbit hole that you are opening. But you are posed on the brink of diving into one that I dont think you are ready to experience

I'm not trying to be condescending in any way, but from your statements I can only deduce that you don't have a broad reaching spiritual education. This is not in and of itself a bad thing, only a sign of spiritual immaturity.

Lucid dreaming is an attempt to enter a transcendent state.

To be as brief as possibly, I'd like to point you in a particular direction and encourage you to do some research on your own. Consider this quote

The experience of being in a lucid dream clearly demonstrates the astonishing fact that the world we see is a construct of our minds. This concept, so elusive when sought in waking life, is the cornerstone of spiritual teachings. It forces us to look beyond everyday experience and ask, "If this is not real, what is?" Lucid dreaming, by so baldly baring a truth that many spend lives seeking, often triggers spiritual questioning in people who try it for far more mundane purposes. Not only does lucid dreaming lead to questioning the nature of reality, but for many it also has been a source of transcendent experience. Exalted and ecstatic states are common in lucid dreams.

The first statement of that paragraph is not reconcilable with Christian teachings.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FANTASTIC


(I did go back and read up to here.)

I'm sorry but I just don't believe it. If that is what is meant by "lucid dreaming" I am not nor have ever been close to experiencing it.

In fact if I ever did get to that point, I too would start a thread and tell you all how to do it and then never come back to the site again...too many things to do if I could master that.

....ok, back to the point of this post.....I don't think Christianity has a single thing to do with it. BUT.... if you actually do have control "freewill" then like I said, you sure as hell could sin. Bah! I don't believe this feat is possible so I'm not going to go further into the moral questions.
I sure would love to get to that point though...just to exert any freewill and remain asleep would be a huge break through.

....I will say that even though I disagree with the poster that I grabbed the quote from, I have a sense or can just tell that they may be on to something so I wouldn't disregard whatever that person says out of hand.

It is very real, I assure you. When you realize you are dreaming you are free to do, create, or experience anything you want. If I want to throw a car down the street at someone, so be it. If I see a cute girl and I want her clothes to fly off, so be it. It happens and it seems very real because you are conscious during the dream. I still remember the first time it happened, I was in 7th grade and fell asleep during class. Dreaming has never been the same since, I am now 23.

And also, while I do not agree with the poster of the quote that you quoted (lol), he does bring up some very good points.

[edit on 10-4-2008 by deadline527]

Originally posted by deadline527

Originally posted by Res Ipsa
1) if you have free will in a dream my friend then you are on your way to immortality.

How do you figure that?

I have free will in some of my dreams, not all (wish I did) but a good portion of them I am able to lucidly do what I will. How does this equate to immortality? I will still die in the same amount of time as if I diddnt have lucid dreams...

As for your explanation, thats just like watching a movie. The next day, if someone mentions the movie, you remembered the whole 2 hours in less then a second. This actually goes into the whole "alien writing" subject but thats a whole nother can of worms, lol.

-----------------------------------------

ok, now when I fly in dreams...when I "try" to fly, I start off by running down hill and then kind of jumping great distances then I try and keep from touching the ground by leveling off and then and only sometimes am I able to go up. When I do get any altitude the dream changes into me either falling into some huge pine trees or I am holding on to a rope that is swinging me in a very scary and uncomfortable manner. I feel if I let go I am dead type thing.
....I can sometimes manipulate my dreams just a bit but when I do the continuity gets screwed up and then I am someplace else doing something else. I once spent a huge amount of dream time picking up coins out of tall thick lush green grass and made huge piles...after a while I was calculating how rich I was and started thinking....why in the hell are all these coins in this grass and ....boom...I wake up. Any time my "thinking" kicks in I either shift dreams or wake up.

So...... I would agree that there is some freewill but not the kind I am talking about. You need to be able to say:
1) create a beautiful house on a lake
2) ok, now an awesome jet ski
3) go out and party on the lake.
......
You asked how this could be "immortality"
I said "practically speaking" Because I don't believe that time in a dream passes like time in the "real" world.....but I can't prove it because I can't golf one single hole, let alone 4 rounds in a single night.
...You must be way down the road then I am and that is why I asked for the experiment if you could do it.

Control anything or dream anything that requires the passage of time "as measured through experience" to see if you can exceed "real" time.

Do you understand what I'm saying? I am not too articulate

Do you see if you can experience time different in a dream how that could extend your life as measured through experience. (that is the measure of a life by the way) Just ask someone that has been in a Coma for 40 years and ask how long their life was.

....I just have to say it again too..... Sin is tied to freewill...it transends all religion and faiths...choosing not to love is a sin....the ultimate sin therefore would be....I suppose murdering God if possible. The smallest of sin would be some type of unpleasent thought. Sin is so easy to understand, yet people and religion want to equate it with "good" and "bad" which of course is subjective and relative......

Someone said something about cheating on our wives in a dream is not a sin, I think. If you freewilled it then I would say yes, a sin, but I would logically assert that it is far far better in a dream than in reality. But if you did "freewill" it, I would also suggest seeking marriage counseling since obviously the only reason you don't in reality is because of real world consequences. Moral consequences are still in play regarding freewill choices.

the concept of 'Sin' i've been taught; is that Sin is the Transgression of the Law.
(not the Law of society...but rather the religious Law)
there's many religious 'Laws'
such as the 7 Noahide Laws - Or the 10 commandments - Or the +600 Laws of the Jews' Torah... just to name a few sources that enumerate just what are 'Sins'.


So, my take on committing 'Sins' while in a state of Lucid Dreaming Is:

Our physical selves - - can commit 'Sins' of-the-flesh, upon another physical person... And we can commit the un-forgivable 'Sin'
of blaspheming the Holy Spirit (according to Judeo-Christian Bible teaching)...

but we must do the act of 'Sinning' while we are in control of our senses,
being wide awake and willfull of our intentions...
'Sins' are a result of intentional decisions made by flesh and blood people having sound mind, and within the bounds of ordinary reality...

to disobey/transgress the (supposed) higher Laws




hope that makes some sort of sense...

I am a regular lucid dreamer by using a device I purchased in 2002 called the NovaDreamer. It is a pair of goggles that flash lights when your eyes begin REM - Rapid Eye Movement.

That device has been instrumental in allowing me to take complete control of my dreams. I can honestly say I live a real "second life" as a result.

Here's what I want to say about the dream reality and ethics. Anyone who has learned to do this will completely agree with this statement: The dream world is *more* real than this reality. Because of that, I treat everyone in the thought/dream world with respect. THey are not cartoons, they are real entities, and they come up with and say things I would never say or even think about. Their intelligence is truley profound. Folks, all I can say is this reality in the meat world is only just one possibility. There are other realities out there and at least the one I explore every weeked is as real as this one. I can't do it during the week , however, because it makes me feel groogy.

Learning to lucid dream with that device is the most profound thing I have *ever* learned.

Originally posted by ATS4dummies
I am a regular lucid dreamer by using a device I purchased in 2002 called the NovaDreamer. It is a pair of goggles that flash lights when your eyes begin REM - Rapid Eye Movement.

That device has been instrumental in allowing me to take complete control of my dreams. I can honestly say I live a real "second life" as a result.

Here's what I want to say about the dream reality and ethics. Anyone who has learned to do this will completely agree with this statement: The dream world is *more* real than this reality. Because of that, I treat everyone in the thought/dream world with respect. THey are not cartoons, they are real entities, and they come up with and say things I would never say or even think about. Their intelligence is truley profound. Folks, all I can say is this reality in the meat world is only just one possibility. There are other realities out there and at least the one I explore every weeked is as real as this one. I can't do it during the week , however, because it makes me feel groogy.

Learning to lucid dream with that device is the most profound thing I have *ever* learned.

I have never heard of the said device, although have heard of certain things that are quite like that in the sense of flashing lights while REM occurs. I will look into that device more often, it would be great if I could dream lucidly more then 75% of the time instead of the normal 25% or so.

Originally posted by deadline527
But lets say I decide I want to be completely and utterly demonic in a dream.. It is still a dream and it carries no consequence and bears no weight in reality.

In some belief systems that would be true. Which is why I think ultimately the religion you belong to, (with its specific definition of prohibited actions and idea of how reality is made manifest) is the crucial bit of information required to answer your question.

For instance, imagine that you are of a faith that totally embraces the "butterfly flaps its wings" idea, (that rather insignificant actions may have huge consequences elsewhere) or one that truly believes that your thoughts create reality? (ie: "The Secret" concept, for instance) Or those who believe that THIS, what we call "waking life," is nothing but a dream? All of those variables of course would change the answer to that question, in this case, (as in most cases) the context is crucial to providing an "answer" that may have some truth. Even if that truth is very subjective, and applies only in that context.

The best way to know, without running all the variables, if something is a sin is how you feel about committing that action, or thinking that thought. Regardless how others may categorize that behaviour, if it makes you feel bad, ashamed, repulsed, etc., I would say it is a sin for you in that moment. (You could have a totally different reaction in different circumstances) Of course this requires that you listen to the subtle clues your body and soul give to you, your intuition, and refrain from "rationalizing" or "justifying" your behaviour to yourself. Your mind can make anything sound ok, given the time to rationalize it properly. Look at genocides, senseless wars, torture, etc., some have been rationalized masterfully, but instinctively we recoil at the thought of them. Your "gut," your subtle instinctive reaction to a situation or choice is a pretty good guide to what is a sin FOR YOU.

Originally posted by Res Ipsa
I am now 41 and I have stopped doing the dream thing since I was your age. I want to do it again but I want to know how to achieve that "freewill" stage. I am also in law school so I really can't have my wife waking me up every 30minutes.

How do you do it? I am of course still skeptical as hell because I really tried for those 3 months but I guess I wouldn't be on ATS if I wasn't trying to deny ignorance.

Convince me.

I too practice Lucid Dreaming, but the thing that helped me a lot is natural affinity.
Some people are ''natural'' lucid dreamers that just somehow turn lucid through DILD's (Dream Induced Lucid Dream) all the time for no reason at all. Some have extreme trouble with it, and some just need to learn.

You say that you wake up when you try to do certain stuff on your own will? I used to have that but only for specific decisions. Actually, the fun part is that I achieved what I would call "Ultimate" lucid dream status in my dream, thanks to a dream character heh. But waking up when doing specific stuff on your own usually means you got too excited in one way or another. Emotions can usually cause you to wake up if they get a bit too extreme. (Which is why many people wake up when trying to engage in "lucid" sex in their dreams)

I wouldn't really say you're on your path to immortality if you achieve this though, considering everyone wakes up SOME time.

Hell, I one time had a dream that lasted 30+ minutes, when only 1 minute passed in realtime. That's a 1:30 scale, 6 hours of sleep would mean 180 hours of dreamtime, but to achieve a 1:infinite scale is impossible afaik.

Though there were a few people that claimed to have dreamed ''years'' or even whole lives.

I'm still sort of skeptical about that, since there's something known as a time skip. Happens a lot in the movies, and sometimes in some people's dreams as well.

You're running during the day.... for 5 minutes.... then suddenly everything goes dark and it's night.

You wake up and think, "Omg I dreamt a whole day." Wrong, you skipped time.

[edit on 11/4/08 by -0mega-]