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Islamophobia is it that bad on ATS?

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posted on Nov, 10 2004 @ 01:07 AM
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Originally posted by cstyle226

You said Islam calls for your death, and that's why you left it. But according to your logic, if you were of Islam, it wasn't calling for your death, so what I'm gathering from your statements, is that you are lying about leaving Islam, and that you were never part of Islam, and that the only reason you are saying Islam is calling for your death is because you believe that everyone who is not of Islam (like you), is required to be killed by those who are.

But whatever your background, I join them in their call.


I didn't say I left Islam because it called for my death, but that Islam now calls for my death because I left it.

If I were in Pakistan, Iran, or Saudi Arabia, and people knew I was once a Muslim then left Islam, I could be put to death according to their laws, governed by Sharia.

I think this is wrong, along with many other things Islam allows. I talk about it, as it is affecting the whole world today.

I also never said that Islam calls for the death of all Kafir. It definitely allows the killing of kafir to further Islam, though.




posted on Nov, 10 2004 @ 01:17 AM
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i see your point in a vague way
becuase of what you went through with ur husbend

( how long did you know this person before marrying him becuase you knew so little about him )



posted on Nov, 10 2004 @ 01:55 AM
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Originally posted by cstyle226
Plus, since so many of you believe Islam is calling for the death of everyone who is not of Islam, then it would be safe to assume from that logic that terrorism will never end.
If Islam is the root of Islamic terror, as I believe it is, then how can we ever end terror without addressing that?

If people make it their business to understand Islam, they will be less gullible to it and we can defend ourselves against terror if we know the root cause.

If Islam becomes looked upon as a cult, and it is socially unacceptable to be a Muslim, then maybe western countries would pressure the Islamic governments of the world about their human rights abuses committed in the name of Islam.

Then, maybe Muslims will be emboldened to speak out, knowing they are not alone. Maybe they could be free to choose and to leave Islam without fear for their lives.

You see, we MUST talk about Islam.

[quoteBut you want it to end, right? So what do you suggest, murdering every Muslim on the planet? See above.


See the circle there, by demonizing Islam...you are demonizing yourselves in Islam's eyes (but since you believe you already are demonized in Islam's eyes, you're not giving yourself a chance).

I already KNOW I am demonized in Islam's eyes. I have been a Muslim and heard what is said bahind closed doors about kafir like me and others.


So going with the discussion here, the only solution is an all out war, and whichever side achieves genocide first, wins.


No, how about this:


A Letter to Mankind
Dear fellow human,

Today humanity is being challenged. Unthinkable atrocities take place on daily basis. There is an evil force at work that aims to destroy us. The agents of this evil respect nothing; not even the lives of children. Every day there are bombings, every day innocent people are targeted and murdered. It seems as if we are helpless. But we are not!

The ancient Chinese sage Sun Zi said, "Know your enemy and you won't be defeated". Do we know our enemy? If we don't, then we are doomed.

Terrorism is not an ideology, it is a tool; but the terrorists kill for an ideology. They call that ideology Islam.

The entire world, both Muslims and non-Muslims claim that the terrorists have hijacked "the religion of peace" and Islam does not condone violence.

Who is right? Do the terrorists understand Islam better, or do those who decry them? The answer to this question is the key to our victory, and failure to find that key will result in our loss and death will be upon us. The key is in the Quran and the history of Islam.

Those of us, who know Islam, know that the understanding of the terrorists of Islam is correct. They are doing nothing that their prophet did not do and did not encourage his followers to do. Murder, rape, assassination, beheading, massacre and sacrilege of the dead "to delight the hearts of the believers" were all practiced by Muhammad, were taught by him and were observed by Muslims throughout their history.

If truth has ever mattered, it matters most now! This is the time that we have to call a spade a spade. This is the time that we have to find the root of the problem and eradicate it. The root of Islamic terrorism is Islam. The proof of that is the Quran.

We are a group of ex-Muslims who have seen the face of the evil and have risen to warn the world. No matter how painful the truth may be, only truth can set us free. Why this much denial? Why so much obstinacy? How many more innocent lives should be lost before YOU open your eyes? A nuclear disaster is upon us. This will happen. It is not a question of "if" but "when". Oblivious of that, the world is digging its head deeper in the sand.

We urge the Muslims to leave Islam. Stop with excuses, justifications and rationalizations. Stop dividing mankind into "us" vs. "them" and Muslims vs. Kafirs. We are One people, One mankind! Muhammad was not a messenger of God. It is time that we end this insanity and face the truth. The terrorists take their moral support and the validation for their actions from you. Your very adherence to their cult of death is a nod of approval for their crimes against humanity.

We also urge the non-Muslims to stop being politically correct lest they hurt the sensitivities of the Muslims. To Hell with their sensitivities! Let us save their lives, and the lives of millions of innocent people.

Millions, if not billions of lives will be lost if we do nothing. Time is running out! "All it takes for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing." Do something! Send this message to everyone in your address book and ask them to do the same. Defeat Islam and stop terrorism. This is your world, save it.


The ex-Muslim Movement


www.faithfreedom.org...


Why must talking about Islam lead to genocide and all out war? That's not my aim.

cstyle226 - Would you please explain your avatar to me? Are you a Muslim yourself?


[edit on 10-11-2004 by I left Islam]



posted on Nov, 10 2004 @ 02:03 AM
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My avatar is a Turkish Soldier.

I am Turkish, but I was born in Indiana, and am an American as well.

I do not believe in God or any religion, but the more I hear the anti-Islamic speak, the more I am driven towards it. It infuriates me that these Christians, who do not want to be considered infidels, are in a sense, labeling all Muslims as such.

It's hypocrisy.

P.S. When I go visit my family this Thanksgiving, I am going to study the Quran.

[edit on 10-11-2004 by cstyle226]

[edit on 10-11-2004 by cstyle226]



posted on Nov, 10 2004 @ 02:03 AM
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Originally posted by bodrul
i see your point in a vague way
becuase of what you went through with ur husbend

( how long did you know this person before marrying him becuase you knew so little about him )


I knew him by phone and email only for about 2 months. That is not unusual, since in Islam, dating is prohibited and they use arranged marriage. With my not having Muslim parents to marry me off, that was my way of getting my marriage arranged.

I know that I put my self in a very vulnerable position. I was new to this religion, with my husband as my teacher. I was struggling to be a good Muslim and was isolated from my own family and friends.

My ex's way of practicing Islam was very much "by the book" and by the letter of the law. It was very repressive. I recognize that there are Muslims who are a lot easier to live with, but after years of thinking Islam was still a positive force over all, I did my homework and I cannot say I think that anymore.

All the terror and Islamic atrocities going on in the world today are very much justified by Islam's holy books. Those muslims who are better than that still do not take a stand, by and large; and there are reasons for their silence.

I don't call for anyone to hate anyone, but just to learn about this ideology that has so much influence in the world and trust accordingly.



posted on Nov, 10 2004 @ 02:11 AM
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Originally posted by cstyle226
My avatar is a Turkish Soldier.

I am Turkish, but I was born in Indiana, and am an American as well.

I do not believe in God or any religion, but the more I hear the anti-Islamic speak, the more I am driven towards it. It infuriates me that these Christians, who do not want to be considered Kafir, are in a sense, labeling them all as such.

It's hypocrisy.


Thanks. I am agnostic now as well. If Christians were just hunky dory about Islam and all joined hands and sang "cumbaya" would that change things, really?

Are you aware of Islamic law? It says that Christians and Jews (people of the Book) living under Sharia (Islamic Law) are to pay a Jizya tax in subjugation to the Islamic rule.

Islam breaks up the world into 2 parts: Dar ul Harb (land of war) and Dar ul Islam (land of peace). In Islam, peace is achieved once Sharia is in place and no Muslim is governed by non-Muslims.

Given these facts alone, what should we Kafir think? Should we just accept being Dhimmi and second-class citizens if that's what Islam calls for?

By the way, I am pround to be a Kafir.



posted on Nov, 10 2004 @ 02:21 AM
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The point of all of it is, it's their choice. If our soldiers were not in Saudi Arabia, and if the British and Americans weren't busy plundering their lands, there wouldn't be any Jihad.

I have served in the Turkish military on the Iraqi border during the current invasion, and I have visited many times as a civilian. Westerners are welcomed by most of the people.

What they do not appreciate is disrespect, and foreign armies on their land, while many muslims prefer secular government.

Some may not want to believe it, since all you have been shown is 9/11 this and that, and concentrate on Qur'an stating that infidels should be expelled, but it's true.

Al-Qaeda is their version of the KKK.

Now, you can either inflame the sentiment by encouraging talk about infidels, and promoting the us vs. them mentality, thus begging for war.

Or you could try to stop the causes for division.

I'm beginning to think that many of you "good people" want war, and are encouraging it.


[edit on 10-11-2004 by cstyle226]



posted on Nov, 10 2004 @ 02:35 AM
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Originally posted by ZeroDeep
Ibn Iblis,

Why are Muslims your enemy? Is there an all out war between every Muslims on this planet against every non-muslim? If so, please, for everyones sake, fill me in. All i see is fundamentalist Christians against Fundamentalist Muslims.

You seem very ignorant and use 'certain' verses out of whatever Islamic text that falls in your lap, to make your point --whatever that is; there is an ample amount of Islamic texts that perceieve Muhhameds 'teachings' in thier own accord depending on the sociopolitical atmosphere written at the time.

You're name is offensive aswell, not only that, you have only partaken in threads pertaining to Islam....

Muslims are as violent as Jews; muslims are as violent as Buddhists; Muslims are as violent as Sikhs; Muslims are as violent as Christians.

Deep


How is my name offensive? Son of Satan? Something wrong with it? Would it be less offensive if it were in English, instead of Arabic?

You should change your name to ZeroShallow.

First of all, take a deep breath and gather yourself. You're becoming hysterical with your accusations and a$$umptions

Second, I am not a fundamentalist anything. I worship no god created by man. Why is it that anyone who attacks Islamic dogma must be motivated by a need to defend his or her own religion by attacking and defaming others? It's probably the same reason, or similar to, the reason you feel the need to deflect the crimes codified in Islamic scripture by pointing out the crimes "codified" in the bible. But as I pointed out to you in another thread in the religion forum, these crimes are not the same because the religions are structured differently.

Third, with that in mind, surely you realize that I've never said that Muslims are my enemy. I've never attacked Muslims individually. In fact, I have no problem with Osama bin Laden. He is not an evil person, he is a misguided individual brainwashed by an evil ideology, just like the rest of them. If I had grown up in his shoes I'd be living in a cave right now trying to figure out how to kill infidels too, and my preference would be that they abandon their faith and pull themselves out of the pit that Islam has kept them in.

He, like many other Muslims, are devout of faith. Why do we know this? Because we know that A> to the devout Muslim, the Qur'an is the infallible, eternal Word of God, and B> therefore, there is no verse that is more or less important than any other, except the abrogated verses, which unfortunately for your view of reality, are any and all peaceful and tolerant verses in the Qur'an. They've all been replaced by God with hostile ones. I go into this more deeply in the other topic.

My sole motivation is to stop this politically-correct nonsense that Islam is a religion of peace, or that, if not a religion of peace, then no different than any other religions. But your are quite obviously on crack if you think that Muslims are not inherantly more or less violent than Jews or Christians. Show me some video of a Jew gutting another human being while screaming "GOD IS GREAT!!" and I'll never post here again.

Muslims are more violent because their scriptures are more violent. And the way the scriptures are interpretted in the three religions are totally different. Many of the stories of the OT have been dismissed as fables, or meant to be viewed symbolically. This is NOT the case in the Qur'an. In 1993 a Saudi mufti issued a fatwa stating that the Earth is flat because the Qur'an says so and anyone who believes otherwise does not believe in God. Of course, according to Islam law (shari'a) the apostate must be killed and will spend an eternity in gruesome torment in the hellfire. I can't think of a better example of the infallibility of Allah's word. Even the absurd story of Noah, the ark and the flood are God's words in the Qur'an.

The Qur'an to the Muslim simply cannot be called into question. Nor can the honesty and integrity of Muhammad. It is not an indicator of the times when Muhammad recieved them. They are eternal. This is Islam's own doctrine, not my assumptions or ignorance. If you would simply read Islamic scripture--and you have not nor will you, this would become clear.

Instead, you will continue to pretend you are qualified to have an opinion on something you know absolutely nothing about.

Pathetic, really.


Originally posted by ZeroDeep
What muslim lands? Prove to me they are taught nothing but Islamic doctrine. What is wrong with converting to Islam ? Have you heard of Sufism, the highly spiritual and metaphysical aspect of Islam ? I want to see some emperical facts that ascertain the notion that Muslims are taught nothing but thier own creed in thier countries.

Also, what hadith are you talking about?

Deep


The only hadith I usually quote is Sahih al-Bukhari, though sometimes I will quote Sahih Muslim. They are both considered authentic by Muslims, thus the word "sahih" (sound, solid). I quote Bukhari because I am more familiar with it than the others (they are all quite large).

Children are forced the memorize the Qur'an in Pakistan, and possibly Afghanistan (probably under the Taliban, so maybe not any longer), and Saudi Arabia, among others. This is part of the sunna ('enlightened path), whereby Muhammad demanded his followers to memorize the Qur'an; so too must later generations of Muslims. For many Muslims, this is the only way for them to learn how to read. While becomming literate is a good thing, what you're being tought at that young age does much to close the mind to other cultures and people, considering what they're reading and who they're tought is the author of what they're reading (God).

www.atimes.com...
www.geocities.com...
www.pbs.org...

[edit on 10-11-2004 by Ibn Iblis]



posted on Nov, 10 2004 @ 02:49 AM
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Ibn Iblis,

Despite you being a hate monger, worse than the ones you claim are...

For the sake of the argument, let's say your "arrogant" self (according to your mood) is correct.

All I have to say is this:

American soldiers came to their lands firsta long, long time ago...while there have only been a few (albeit devastating) attacks on US Soil after the Americans went over there first.

It was not like they never met Americans before, and decided one day that they heard about this place accross the Atlantic, where there are a bunch of Christians.

9/11 was the response to this imperialism. And instead of asking why this happened, it was responded to with more anger, and more imperialism...so what can you expect? That's right...more, and more, and more attacks!!

So, if the "Kafir" weren't there in the first place, there would be no Jihad.

If they were not being occupied and oppressed, they would find it difficult to find recruits. But since there is always occupation and oppression, Jihad until it's over.

So no matter what you say, if you want to get down to that level...you started it.

[edit on 10-11-2004 by cstyle226]



posted on Nov, 10 2004 @ 03:31 AM
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LOL

The jihad has been ongoing since long before there ever was a United States of America, and it was ongoing long before our armies ever set foot on Muslim lands.

Only recently have they been capable of bringing the jihad to America; had they been able to at an earlier time THEY WOULD HAVE.

Muhammad and Muhammad alone started the jihad. It's that simple.



posted on Nov, 10 2004 @ 03:34 AM
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Correct, and I know that....

But it started to kill the oppressors in the first place. Whoever it be...

Now it's the American empire they are fighting against.

But they did it against the Brits, and they'll do again for any other invading force.

CORRECTION CORRECTION CORRECTION

Actually, when I said "if the "kafir" were not there in the first place, there would be no Jihad" I was correct, because I am referring to any invaders and oppressors.

Now it's the US, so they are the target.

Mesopotamia, is that it has been the constant target of Imperialism, and Jihad is just a response to this imperialism.



[edit on 10-11-2004 by cstyle226]



posted on Nov, 10 2004 @ 06:06 AM
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Originally posted by cstyle226
Correct, and I know that....

But it started to kill the oppressors in the first place. Whoever it be...

Now it's the American empire they are fighting against.

But they did it against the Brits, and they'll do again for any other invading force.

CORRECTION CORRECTION CORRECTION

Actually, when I said "if the "kafir" were not there in the first place, there would be no Jihad" I was correct, because I am referring to any invaders and oppressors.

Now it's the US, so they are the target.

Mesopotamia, is that it has been the constant target of Imperialism, and Jihad is just a response to this imperialism.


That makes absolutely no sense, and it contradicts with history.

Are you really trying to say that jihad throughout history has been in self-defense? Or merely in response to imperialism and oppression?

What is your excuse for the slaughter of the Jewish tribes of Medina? Did Muhammad tell his followers to kill any Jew that came into their power out of self defense? Were the Jews imperialistic; oppressive?

The genocide and plundering of India--was that self defense?

What about the autogenecide of Armenian Christians in 1915? (see also here)

The ethnic cleansing of the non-Turkish Christians after the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire after WWI?

Need I go on? I could!

And let's talk about the Palestinians, while we're on the topic of oppression. Isn't it true that Arafat, while his people live in toilets, has billions hidden away in Swiss bank accounts? Where did the majority of that money come from? American taxpayers! Now tell me who oppressed the Palestinians...? Was it American support of Israel? Is it the Israelis? Or was it Arafat plundering the billions given to them by America for basic social services?

You have a sick definition of imperialism and oppression, my friend.

[edit on 10-11-2004 by Ibn Iblis]



posted on Nov, 10 2004 @ 06:14 AM
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I am a Turk and a descendant of the Ottoman Empire.

I don't support oppression of any kind. IT'S ALL WRONG.

What part of that don't you get?

Your arrogance and anger is your problem more than anything else, Ibn Iblis.

Take a look in the mirror.

[edit on 10-11-2004 by cstyle226]



posted on Nov, 10 2004 @ 06:23 AM
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Originally posted by cstyle226
I am a Turk and a descendant of the Ottoman Empire.

I don't support oppression of any kind. IT'S ALL WRONG.

What part of that don't you get?

Your arrogance and anger is your problem more than anything else, Ibn Iblis.

Take a look in the mirror.


That's a distinctly different tone than the one you had just a few posts ago, where you were blaming the jihad on those who had oppressed the jihadists.

I suppose what you really want to say now is there is no justification whatsoever for this wanton mass murder? I agree.

There is no anger about me. Sorrow is more like it. Sorrow that this religion has driven so many people to slaughter hundreds of millions of innocents. Sorrow that because of what is written within Islamic doctrine this slaughter will never stop.

It's not I that needs a mirror. It's a billion Muslims.

[edit on 10-11-2004 by Ibn Iblis]



posted on Nov, 10 2004 @ 06:24 AM
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I noticed in your Anti-Islam tirade, Pathetic fool of Dar Al-Harb, that you didn't mention anything about what happened to the Native Americans, who were slaughtered, so you can live here, and preach your arrogance.

Why is that? Because only events of long ago Muslims bother you...

Since forever, everyone was killing everyone...today, we look at who is in the wrong...and it's not the Iraqi's.

And a billion muslims are not terrorists trying to kill the infidel, and if you believe that, you deserve to be killed, and that has nothing to do with any religion.

I liken Al-Qaeda to the KKK.



[edit on 10-11-2004 by cstyle226]



posted on Nov, 10 2004 @ 06:27 AM
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Originally posted by edsinger
What if Gabriel was not who he claimed to be? Not the same one that announced the Savior? What if?


One can even argue that Gabriel started Islam. Or at least inspired it. The prophet was sleeping and he heard a voice in his ear claiming to be 'Gabriel'. In short, it scared the hell out of him. This is why he thought it was evil. Not necessarily that it was evil. Imagine if this happened to you, wouldnt you be just a little startled.

Edsinger, like I said in my previous post, I majored in religious studies, however I smoked a lot of herbal substances, so the info is up there, just scattered around. I'll try to answer your question a little better when it comes back to me



posted on Nov, 10 2004 @ 06:39 AM
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Originally posted by cstyle226
I noticed in your Anti-Islam tirade, Pathetic fool of Dar Al-Harb, that you didn't mention anything about what happened to the Native Americans, who were slaughtered, so you can live here, and preach your arrogance.

Why is that? Because only events of long ago Muslims bother you...

Since forever, everyone was killing everyone...today, we look at who is in the wrong...and it's not the Iraqi's.

And a billion muslims are not terrorists trying to kill the infidel, and if you believe that, you deserve to be killed, and that has nothing to do with any religion.

I liken Al-Qaeda to the KKK.


How typical of the clueless and the owned to start tossing insults around when you have nothing of substance to add.

With your next post I think you should try to fly a little bit more off topic, if that's even possible. WTF does the American Indians have to do with the "War on Terror"? Or more appropriately, the War on Militant Islam?

[edit on 10-11-2004 by Ibn Iblis]



posted on Nov, 10 2004 @ 06:42 AM
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Well, I was just saying that the "Invincible" Ibn Iblis thinks that a billion Muslims are out to get him, which is nothing less than paranoid dementia.

With that kind of mindset, you are beyond reason.

What is your goal? To preach distrust of all Muslims?



posted on Nov, 10 2004 @ 06:42 AM
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Originally posted by Simulacra

Originally posted by edsinger
What if Gabriel was not who he claimed to be? Not the same one that announced the Savior? What if?


One can even argue that Gabriel started Islam. Or at least inspired it. The prophet was sleeping and he heard a voice in his ear claiming to be 'Gabriel'. In short, it scared the hell out of him. This is why he thought it was evil. Not necessarily that it was evil. Imagine if this happened to you, wouldnt you be just a little startled.

Edsinger, like I said in my previous post, I majored in religious studies, however I smoked a lot of herbal substances, so the info is up there, just scattered around. I'll try to answer your question a little better when it comes back to me


You're right, for the most part. Muhammad went home to Khadisha scared that he had been possessed by demons. Had she not reassured him that he had indeed heard from Jibrael, Islam may never have come to be.

So in reality we could say it was Khadisha who's most responsible for Islam.



posted on Nov, 10 2004 @ 06:44 AM
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Originally posted by cstyle226
I noticed in your Anti-Islam tirade, Pathetic fool of Dar Al-Harb, that you didn't mention anything about what happened to the Native Americans, who were slaughtered, so you can live here, and preach your arrogance.

Why is that? Because only events of long ago Muslims bother you...

Since forever, everyone was killing everyone...today, we look at who is in the wrong...and it's not the Iraqi's.

And a billion muslims are not terrorists trying to kill the infidel, and if you believe that, you deserve to be killed, and that has nothing to do with any religion.

I liken Al-Qaeda to the KKK.



[edit on 10-11-2004 by cstyle226]



You may do that but it would be as foolish as the other things you do.
the klan does not act out the tenents of Christ , alqueeda is active practicing muslims.
wars of conquest by the west are irrealvent.they are for land and riches.

Islam fights for allah and will not stop until all submit.
you want to fight oppression fight Islam they will be your final oppressor



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