Islamophobia is it that bad on ATS?

Originally posted by Dan West
The whole people elect. When The Whole People vote it is a Democracy. It is a good System for Government. I know I live in one.

Then it's time we stopped the "election fraud" idea by adopting some sort of reliable and credible voteing system that can't be picked apart or questioned as much the one as we have now.
It's become quite obivious to me that the U.S. is really looked at as the standard or ideal of democracy.
We need to set an excellent example. Not one that is mocked or frowned upon by the rest of world.
The world's leader must be the example that others can follow with confidence.

I am sure these are wonderful topics to discuss.
How about generating a new thread to examine the idea and letting this one return to its stated purpose.

I am by no means Anti US. I have visited the US and my Sister and her family live there.
Transperancy in elections is Vital as is Honesty.
One person one vote.
What I witnessed on TV was that there were so may voting systems in the one country who wouldnt be confused. I still dont understand the colledge vote thing.
The KISS method works..... Keep It Simple Stupid

Apologies for the Digression Netchicken

Sorry netchicken...you know how these ideas keep getting linked together in your head sometimes...LOL.
Anyway, I don't suspect all middleeasterners as being "suspect". I've come to know a few of them who live in my community and they are as "american as applepie" for the most part.
I guess I tend to mostly judge people as individuals as not as a group.

Originally posted by elaine
Sorry netchicken...you know how these ideas keep getting linked together in your head sometimes...LOL.
Anyway, I don't suspect all middleeasterners as being "suspect". I've come to know a few of them who live in my community and they are as "american as applepie" for the most part.
I guess I tend to mostly judge people as individuals as not as a group.

Ok the majority of Muslims are good people.... DESPITE Islam, not thanks to Islam in any way.

I want everyone to know what Islam really is, because it is simply dangerous not to know. I would love to see Muslims leave Islam, and some do when they learn the ugly truth.

How is it they don't know, you might ask? There are lots of reasons. The majority of Muslims are actually not Arabs or Arab speaking, yet then read the Quran and pray, etc in Arabic. They rely on whatever their Imam and parents teach. They rationalize that the terrorists are wrong, but they have not read the Quran in order to know.

Imagine dealing with the possible truth that your entire identity might be a lie. Add to that the fact that Islam calls for death to those who leave Islam or even criticize it! Even if some Muslims do know the truth and hate Islam, what can they do about it?

See this qoute from Omar Ahmad, Co-founder of the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) a mainstream Islamic organization in the US:

"Those who stay in America should be open to society without melting, keeping Mosques open so anyone can come and learn about Islam. If you choose to live here, you have a responsibility to deliver the message of Islam ......
Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faiths, but to become dominant. The Koran, the Muslim book of scripture, should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only acceptedreligion on Earth." - Omar Ahmad

Also, those who do know the truth about Islam will never tell you! Why would they? Is it any wonder that Yasser Arafat will say one thing to the world in English and another in Arabic to the Palestinians? There is an institute dedicated to translating things from Arab media: www.memri.org...

There is a concept in Islam called Taquiyya. It is derived from a Sahih Ahmad Hadith:

Muhammad said: "Lying is wrong, *except in three things: the lie of a man to his wife to make her content with him; a lie to an enemy, for **war is deception; or a lie to settle trouble between people" (Ahmad, 6.459. H).

Hadith are second in authority only to the Quran and are the sayings of Mohammad and the observations of his wives or companions. They are used as a guide to interpret Islam and the Quran, and to dictate Islamic Law, called Shariah.


Then this word "Islamophobia!" Why not? Why should we not be afraid of Islam? I am, Islam calls for my death!!!

Why not ask Islam why they have Kafiraphobia? Why can't they allow criticism of Islam or even allow a former Muslim to live?

Did you know that in many Islamic countries, like Pakistan and Saudi Arabia, they practice death penalty for apostates? (Apostate=person who left Islam) What are they afraid of? The truth?

[edit on 8-11-2004 by I left Islam]

[edit on 8-11-2004 by I left Islam]

Originally posted by Simulacra
Your post is somewhat true, but still skewed. Ok first all, Christainity also began as a cult.

Ok first lets lay some history. Pre-muslim Arabia was very tribe based. Primitive in some way. It was a land of nomadic people. Throughout the land were 'safe zones' so to speak. These areas were places were people would get together and discuss culture and religion without having to worry about being attacked by a tribe.

Abu-Bahkr was a great war-lord. He 'commanded' his tribe to great victories. When he got word that something called 'Islam' was starting up he decided that he was going to pay the prophet Muhammad a personal visit...to make a long story short, Abu-Bahkr saw the 'light' of Islam and became one of Muhammad's right hand men.

Now as far as Muhammad raiding caravans. Yes this happened. He used it to fund Islam. This is true. But this was the way of life back then. Eventually he stopped because Allah told him that it was a foul way of life. Before Muhammad began Islam, people in Arabia were burying small children, using bones to write poetry on...etc.You really cant compare current culture with a way of life that existed thousands of years ago.

I cant stress this enough. People want to classify these issues in black/white, Right/wrong, Good/evil. This polarization is dividing America.

Division is a tool used for control.

Kudos on knowing something about Islam. It's nice to discuss this intelligently with people who have bothered to know what they're talking about. Usually it's just people who assume they know something about Islam because they think all religions are the same.

ANYway,

The problem with dismissing the acts of the early Muslims as a way of the times of the day is, Islam is supposed to be timeless; timeless in two ways. First of all, the Qur'an is perfect and timeless. They are all the Word of God to a Muslim, not subject to interpretation, context or nuance. Probably the biggest crime against God a Muslim can commit is to apostasize, and there are several ways to do that, one of them being calling into ridicule any of Allah's revelations. For this a Muslim can be killed, and spend eternity in the hellfire, which, if you've read about it, is not a pleasant thought.

Second, Muhammad's example is collected in the hadith, which is part of the sunna or "enlightened path". This is based on the ayah (verse) which says those who obey the prophet obey Allah. So Muslims collected the hadith so that Muslims for all time could emulate the prophet's words and deeds, to be the best Muslims they can be. These hadiths--and true, not all hadiths are recognized as authentic, but even the most sound (sahih), al-Bukhari and Muslim, are riddled with attrocious actions and words. We see Muhammad ordering the assassination of people who speak out against him or mock him. He marries a 6 year old girl and consummates the marriage at 9. He says all women are deficient in intelligence and in faith, that the majority of Hell's inhabitants are women.

This is supposed to be the example by which all Muslims live, for all time. The Qur'an and the hadith are not subject to reform. They are infallible. And a Muslim, technically, cannot practice Islam unless he/she consults them both.

To the Muslim, these acts--murder, rape, pedophilia, slaughter--are not issues of right or wrong for them to decide. God and His messenger have decided that not only are they correct; they are necessary.

It would be one thing if, as in the case of the Jews, there were passages of Muslim scripture that were violent but otherwise ignored. The jihad has been ongoing and nonstop for 1400 years. Google "Smyrna" and read about it. Read about the Muslim invasions of India. Hundreds of millions killed. Entire Jewish, Christian, Sabian, and Zoroastrian populations wiped out in Arabia, North Africa, Asia Minor, and Eastern Europe. You may have heard that the Ottoman empire was a shining example of Muslim tolerance and enlightenment--HA!!

Knowing about Muhammad and also Osama bin Laden, one comes to the inescapable realization that the only difference between the two, besides Muhammad's claim to prophethood, was that Muhammad wasn't burdened by an overwhelming technological disadvantage to his enemies.

And we should all thank whatever god we worship for that.

And this is not an attempt at division, though if it divides then so be it. But the truth should never be concealed just because it sometimes divides.

Originally posted by Dan West
In reference to brainwashing. I think the US is a clear example. The Government has brainwashed its people to think that they live in a democracy.
Go figure

We are not a democracy, and never have been a democracy.

We are a representative republic.

Originally posted by Ibn Iblis
Kudos on knowing something about Islam. It's nice to discuss this intelligently with people who have bothered to know what they're talking about. Usually it's just people who assume they know something about Islam because they think all religions are the same.

Same to you. I obtained my BA in Religious Studies. I've read nearly a thousands pages on Islam I just really, really, really smoked a lot of herbal substances in college, the info isnt forgotten...just misplaced

Originally posted by Ibn Iblis
The problem with dismissing the acts of the early Muslims as a way of the times of the day is, Islam is supposed to be timeless; timeless in two ways. First of all, the Qur'an is perfect and timeless.

This is true. The Quran is supposed to be heard, not read. There are schools (Minet?) in which children remember the entire Quran, verbally. It's a typical thing. Also, I must say...I'm not muslim nor christain, but hearing the Quran recited is amazing, it's hard to explain in words.

Originally posted by Ibn Iblis
Second, Muhammad's example is collected in the hadith, which is part of the sunna or "enlightened path". This is based on the ayah (verse) which says those who obey the prophet obey Allah.

This is also true. These Hadith are validated by what is known as 'Isnad' or transmissions. It's the Quran's literary 'sidekick'. It's a book that simply tells who heard what. For example it's filled with stuff like 'Ali told Abu-Bahkr, who told Aiysha who told Prince Hassan to 'Pray 5 times a day'. Oh yea, and for all christains out there remember that Jesus is one of the most quoted prophets in the Quran.

I hope this helped anyone whos trying to understand Islam.

[edit on 11/9/2004 by Simulacra]

this is a reply to ( I left Islam )
it looks ovious that you wern't even remotely muslim because
you joined ATS just yesterday ( prob just to post how you are againt muslims ) using the idea that you converted from it

Originally posted by Simulacra
Oh yea, and for all christains out there remember that Jesus is one of the most quoted prophets in the Quran.

I hope this helped anyone whos trying to understand Islam.

[edit on 11/9/2004 by Simulacra]

Care to post any " Jesus" quotes from the Quran that are also in the gospel of Christ?

Originally posted by bodrul
this is a reply to ( I left Islam )
it looks ovious that you wern't even remotely muslim because
you joined ATS just yesterday ( prob just to post how you are againt muslims ) using the idea that you converted from it

SO someones islamic peridgree is some how in direct perportion to their length of stay at ATS?

Originally posted by KAOSKTRLCare to post any " Jesus" quotes from the Quran that are also in the gospel of Christ?

I promise I will. I'm a little busy, but give me some time

I dont know what could be more importent.
Be sure to send me a U2U I surely dont want to miss this

Originally posted by KAOSKTRL

Originally posted by bodrul
this is a reply to ( I left Islam )
it looks ovious that you wern't even remotely muslim because
you joined ATS just yesterday ( prob just to post how you are againt muslims ) using the idea that you converted from it

SO someones islamic peridgree is some how in direct perportion to their length of stay at ATS?

the only reason i think that is by reading his reply
and looking at when he joinned ( which was a few hours after this topic was created )

Originally posted by Ibn Iblis

Originally posted by craigandrew
Neither is Christianity Mate......I heard and seen some very un-christian acts done in the name of it.

It's just some we have managed to get ourselves somewhere near the top of the relatively well fed food chain over the rest of them.

Its nice to feel pure as the driven snow (no dig intended at any person,just the general concept)

There is no comparison between Islamic attrocities and Christian attrocities. Christian attrocities are expressly un-Christian; Muslim attrocities are sanctioned and mandated by Allah.

Read the gospels of Christ. Christ is exclusively peace and love. This about sums it up:

"You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' 39 But I say to you, Do not resist one who is evil. But if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also; 40 and if any one would sue you and take your coat, let him have your cloak as well; 41 and if any one forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42 Give to him who begs from you, and do not refuse him who would borrow from you. 43 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

Matthew 5-38-45.

Nothing like that in the Qur'an, sir. Kill those who persecute you, kill those who disbelieve.

Keep it up with your Crusader speak, and see what you get you in return.

This is supposed to be the example by which all Muslims live, for all time. The Qur'an and the hadith are not subject to reform. They are infallible. And a Muslim, technically, cannot practice Islam unless he/she consults them both.

that's a load of bull there are reports of him requesting that the hadith should be burned after he died as it would lead to divisions of Islam.
Why should i follow accounts of his life that don't seem to add up? they are no where near even 80% rock solid evidence of how he really lived his life.

To the Muslim, these acts--murder, rape, pedophilia, slaughter--are not issues of right or wrong for them to decide. God and His messenger have decided that not only are they correct; they are necessary.

why would anyone follow a religion that teaches this? you'd have to be retarded, is that why it flourished in asia? do the people over there have sum sort of gene disorder?

Knowing about Muhammad and also Osama bin Laden, one comes to the inescapable realization that the only difference between the two, besides Muhammad's claim to prophethood, was that Muhammad wasn't burdened by an overwhelming technological disadvantage to his enemies.

Well if one believes all that bs you came out with then maybe, but in truth the difference is that Muhammad practiced Islam.

And this is not an attempt at division, though if it divides then so be it. But the truth should never be concealed just because it sometimes divides.

wow good to know the truth at last, are you a Muslim? because u seem to know more about Islam than me

cstyle226 says

Keep up with your crusader speak and see what you get in return

cstyle226 keep up your jihadi defense speak and see what you get in return. You and yours are being put on notice we will not tolerate murderous despots or those who defend them.

Originally posted by bodrul
this is a reply to ( I left Islam )
it looks ovious that you wern't even remotely muslim because
you joined ATS just yesterday ( prob just to post how you are againt muslims ) using the idea that you converted from it

Bodrul - That's all you could come up with in answer to my post? Wanna see an entire forum for of ex-Muslims? www.faithfreedom.org...

I am "paz" in that forum.

What is your interest in protecting Islam from criticism? Do you think all religions should be exempt from criticism or only Islam?

Tell us what YOU know about Islam that makes you object to those of us who are against it.



[edit on 9-11-2004 by I left Islam]

ehem, if I may butt in here, being a Muslim and all

First, people should explain more clearly what they are talking about, Qur'an, Hadith, early Islam, reforms, modern Islam, tribal laws, shariah laws, moderates, extremists, Sunni, Shi'i Islam, Sufi Islam, Al-Qaeda, Bin Laden, people of the likes of Rashad Khalifa etc, etc.
People tend to mix everything together, quote, or rather misquote Qur'an, mix several sentences from several different chapters into one "sura" and then quote it, connect early tribal explanations of Hadith with modern practices, are usualy totaly unaware of really modern Islam, like the one in Bosnia. I mean, really, I want to answer questions, but one has to be more specific.

Not to mention such mistakes as confusing general evil of people with religion itself.

I wouldn't say that Islamophobia is present on ATS, I've seen many very tolerant and open minded people here, only a few tend to formulate their questions so that they seem islamophobic.
Though, I am often careful not to label such person as muslim hater right away, it could only be that they have misunderstood certain things about Islam, or that they do not know enough, or that it is simply fear from possible danger of terrorist attacks.
We are all here to learn and to deny ignorance, so that is always my starting point, to provide information.
A well formulated post with explanations can solve the misunderstanding then.

Someone requested quotes about Jesus from Qur'an, so here it is:


[3:42] The angels said, "O Mary, GOD has chosen you and purified you. He has chosen you from all the women.

[3:43] "O Mary, you shall submit to your Lord, and prostrate and bow down with those who bow down."

[3:44] This is news from the past that we reveal to you. You were not there when they drew their raffles to select Mary's guardian. You were not present when they argued with one another.

[3:45] The angels said, "O Mary, GOD gives you good news: a Word from Him whose name is `The Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary. He will be prominent in this life and in the Hereafter, and one of those closest to Me.'

[3:46] "He will speak to the people from the crib, as well as an adult; he will be one of the righteous."

[3:47] She said, "My Lord, how can I have a son, when no man has touched me?" He said, "GOD thus creates whatever He wills. To have anything done, He simply says to it, `Be,' and it is.

[3:48] "He will teach him the scripture, wisdom, the Torah, and the Gospel."

[3:49] As a messenger to the Children of Israel: "I come to you with a sign from your Lord - I create for you from clay the shape of a bird, then I blow into it, and it becomes a live bird by GOD's leave. I restore vision to the blind, heal the leprous, and I revive the dead by GOD's leave. I can tell you what you eat, and what you store in your homes. This should be a proof for you, if you are believers.

[3:50] "I confirm previous scripture - the Torah - and I revoke certain prohibitions imposed upon you. I come to you with sufficient proof from your Lord. Therefore, you shall observe GOD, and obey me.

[3:51] "GOD is my Lord and your Lord; you shall worship Him alone. This is the right path."

[3:52] When Jesus sensed their disbelief, he said, "Who are my supporters towards GOD?" The disciples said, "We are GOD's supporters; we believe in GOD, and bear witness that we are submitters."

[3:53] "Our Lord, we have believed in what You have sent down, and we have followed the messenger; count us among the witnesses."

3:54] They plotted and schemed, but so did GOD, and GOD is the best schemer.

[3:55] Thus, GOD said, "O Jesus, I am terminating your life, raising you to Me, and ridding you of the disbelievers. I will exalt those who follow you above those who disbelieve, till the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is the ultimate destiny of all of you, then I will judge among you regarding your disputes.

[3:56] "As for those who disbelieve, I will commit them to painful retribution in this world, and in the Hereafter. They will have no helpers."

[3:57] As for those who believe and lead a righteous life, He will fully recompense them. GOD does not love the unjust.

[3:58] These are the revelations that we recite to you, providing a message full of wisdom.



[edit on 9-11-2004 by paperclip]