Originally posted by devilwasp
religion is difficult its not black and white, its gray.
they argue because there is much contravercy.

Your right and Im to obstinate in my atheism, religion just get me pumped up.....cause I think its causing to much suffering...

Originally posted by Kollapse


Your right and Im to obstinate in my atheism, religion just get me pumped up.....cause I think its causing to much suffering...

it does , its a very............damm cant find the right word.

Originally posted by devilwasp

Originally posted by Kollapse


Ok, I admit that I was too harsh, anyway..I think its ok to believe in anything, but when people start to argue with religious stuff I gladly insult them.

religion is difficult its not black and white, its gray.
they argue because there is much contravercy.

iT IS BLACK AND WHITE
9.29. Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allāh, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allāh and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islām) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

I am not against America. I strongly disagree with the current government, it's policies, and the people trying to demonize 1 billion for the acts of a few. I believe the current policies will do nothing to stop terrorism, and will only increase it. Plain and simple.

I happen to share that assessment. However, I do not think that even Bush is trying to demonize Islam. Indeed, he has gone out of his way to make the separation between war on terror, and not war on Islam...

When it comes down to it, I do not believe in God. I believe the killing of any innocent people is wrong, ALWAYS, by anyone. And I believe those who preach distrust, are not innocent, no matter whose side they are on, and they do deserve whatever happens to them.

Then you should hardly be rooting for the insurgents...

Iblis mate i think you were a bit hasty with your judgement, i am a muslim and i therefore think (looking at what you seem to have to say about Islam) that i do know more than you about it.

Originally posted by Ibn Iblis
You're not a Muslim. And yes, the hadith is a bunch of crap. But they were not collected until decades after he died, so there are no reports of him ordering them destroyed because there was no hadith before he died.

i don't think that makes it impossible at all, just because they were collected decades after doesn't mean they weren't being written at his time

But in religion perception is ALWAYS more important than reality. So while you and I know that the hadith (and everything else about Islam) is a joke, Muslims believe this and cannot practice Islam without believing in and following them.

Well no, thats not true at all as far as facts are concerned, the Qur'an states that you should follow the Qur'an and the way of the prophet, if the hadith isn't reliable then...

Originally posted by KAOSKTRL
iT IS BLACK AND WHITE
9.29. Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allāh, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allāh and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islām) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

You really are full of ... it just had to be said, your view of Islam is a joke. I will however add that a great deal of "Muslims" (so called) also don't know what they are on about. Islam isn't the problem.

[edit on 10-11-2004 by sal88]

Originally posted by sal88
i don't think that makes it impossible at all, just because they were collected decades after doesn't mean they weren't being written at his time

Yes it does. There is not a single hadith collected until decades--maybe even more than a century--after Muhammad supposedly died (I personally don't believe he ever lived at all, nor did Jesus, but I digress...).

Originally posted by sal88
Well no, thats not true at all as far as facts are concerned, the Qur'an states that you should follow the Qur'an and the way of the prophet, if the hadith isn't reliable then...

The problem is proving to the Muslim that the hadith isn't reliable. You may not believe it's reliable, but speak to a Muslim in Saudi Arabia or Pakistan about the authenticity of the hadith, and you might want to guard your neck.

This is what I mean by 'perception is more important than reality'. I do not believe there is anything of historical value in any of the Islamic texts. I think they're all made up. But I could produce mountains upon mountains of evidence to the umma to show Islam is a fallacy and I'd be lucky if even one of them listened.

That's not to say they're stupid or ignorant; such is the power of faith. Christians and Jews are not immune to this; the bible has been called into ridicule far more deeply than the Qur'an and people still believe despite overwhelming evidence that Jesus never lived and Moses never recieved the Ten Commandments and all of that.

[edit on 10-11-2004 by Ibn Iblis]

Hey, Ibn, what evidence do you speak. I think the evidence is the other way. Please enlighten me.

Before you talk s*** about religion, other than your own, remember that bad deeds were done in the name of virtually every God figure there is to belive in--in Christianity you had Crusaders, in Islam there is Jihad, Satanism promotes revenge and so on...

Think about your own beliefs and what has been (Or is being) covered behind them BEFORE you speak of other religions in a negative way. That is my message.

Personally, as a good atheist, I accept all the religions and belive none. Some are good life philosophies though.

There are bigots and predjudiced people here, just like everywhere. I think its most humorous that some of the worst offenders here in terms of anti-muslim bigotry clearly have no idea wtf they are talking about. Sheik Redneck and Ayatollah 'neverreadthekoran' sure are authoritative on matters of islamic scholarship eh?

This thread has serioulsy gone way downhill and has resulted in numerous insults. I am Locking it up.