Proving God to be fake... In under ten seconds...

Originally posted by thrashee
The entire OP is centered around logic and philosophy. If you don't wish to engage in such, then you shouldn't.

No... you chose to take the OP as philosophical... Bad media and I have maintained a debate for several days over several pages of non-philosophical banter.

Appeal to tradition (that's a logical fallacy). I doubt I'm the first person to have solved this, but frankly speaking, if I am, then these people weren't that smart to begin with.

Nah, can't use logical fallacies and point out argumentative conflicts when there is no argument here... I'm simply refusing to debate such a moot point.

Huh? What does this have to do with anything? Logic and philosophy play hand in hand.

You can use logic in philosophy, but that does not make logic philosophy.

Really? Then you admit it's a waste of time to debate God. I will accept this, then, as a concession to your prior statements.

No... there is an answer to god... either he's there, or he's not. There is an answer to that question... just no one knows what it is currently.

And yet slip in another appeal while doing so. I think, good sir, you need to make up your mind whether you are prepared to debate or not.

Did you bother to read the posts before you barge in here and start flinging veiled ad-hominem? most likely not, or you would have realized that the debate had ended several hours before...

If you are, then you better come in all guns blazing. Otherwise you just look, quite frankly, wishy-washy.

The following is brought to you by Ad-hominem:

I could really give crap what you think I am, how how you think I look... I quite frankly have lost respect for you based on the fact that you refuse to accept the fact that there is no argument here... Instead you come in, and when I decline to argue, launch into a debate about debating?

I quite frankly, will most likely not engage you in debate ever. I simply can not debate those whom I have no respect for, or it turns into an ad hominem match such as this.

Badmedia and I have been at each other for almost 2 days now, and nowhere in the process did our talks degenerate into the sheer aggression and insulting nature that you have in less than 6 posts...

Thus, Badmedia and I have our disagreements, and we've maybe lobbed a low blow or two here and there... but I still respect him, and I still respond to his posts...

Thanks Badmedia for being a worthy adversary...

And Thank you Thrashee for showing me exactly what immature children with their parents internet connections can do in a forum like this, making me appreciate the mature, more thoughtful adversaries such as badmedia...

reply to post by nj2day


I'm going to ask you some simple questions....

1: What do you believe evil is?

2: What do you believe good is?

3: What do you think invented good and evil?

[edit on 22-2-2009 by ALLis0NE]

reply to post by ALLis0NE


Good and evil are only labels assigned to behavior...

Its a way of saying what is bad in a culture, and good in a culture...

There's nothing more to it... What I consider good, someone else may consider evil... its nothing more than a label we come up with to describe what is currently acceptable and unacceptable within the current moral zeitgeist.

Seriously, this stuff doesn't need to be as mystic and mysterious as everyone tries to make it out to be...

Originally posted by nj2day
No... you chose to take the OP as philosophical... Bad media and I have maintained a debate for several days over several pages of non-philosophical banter.

Dude, the OP is philosophical by nature. If you have a problem with this, bring it up with the OP, not me. It still begs the question...why did you choose to participate? Don't get all "blame everyone else" on me now.

Nah, can't use logical fallacies and point out argumentative conflicts when there is no argument here... I'm simply refusing to debate such a moot point.

Really? And yet you still chose to engage in the thread. A decision I bet you're regretting right about now, to be sure.

You can use logic in philosophy, but that does not make logic philosophy.

Sigh. You're not getting it, are you? Never mind.

No... there is an answer to god... either he's there, or he's not. There is an answer to that question... just no one knows what it is currently.

Really? And yet you seemed so sure to chastise those who thought "yes" to that very same question. Curious.

Did you bother to read the posts before you barge in here and start flinging veiled ad-hominem? most likely not, or you would have realized that the debate had ended several hours before...

If it had ended several hours ago, then why did you challenge me? You're begging your own question, my friend.

The following is brought to you by Ad-hominem:

I'm sorry, but what does quoting other people have to do with me? Is this honestly the best you have with which to refute me?

I quite frankly, will most likely not engage you in debate ever. I simply can not debate those whom I have no respect for, or it turns into an ad hominem match such as this.

I don't know if this is aimed at me or the prior poster you linked, but either way, it matters not. If your sole argument is that you won't debate someone you have no respect for, you're frankly a coward. Debate should have nothing to do with respect for your opponent, but only the logic that is put forth. From what I'm seeing here, you're simply trying to fade into the woodwork because you've encountered people whose logical abilities are more than you bargained for.

Badmedia and I have been at each other for almost 2 days now, and nowhere in the process did our talks degenerate into the sheer aggression and insulting nature that you have in less than 6 posts...

Again, I assume you're directing this at someone else.

And Thank you Thrashee for showing me exactly what immature children with their parents internet connections can do in a forum like this, making me appreciate the mature, more thoughtful adversaries such as badmedia...

Um...is this honestly your reply to what I've stated here? I haven't ad hom'd you whatsoever. I HAVE challenged you....and quite frankly, if this is your reaction, then you're, well, a baby.

Your logic sucks. Go cry about it to someone else.

Originally posted by ALLis0NE
reply to post by nj2day

 

I'm going to ask you some simple questions....

1: What do you believe evil is?

2: What do you believe good is?

3: What do you think invented good and evil?

[edit on 22-2-2009 by ALLis0NE]

I know you didn't ask me but I'll take the challenge.

1: Evil does not exist.
2: Good does not exist
3:Every person with a functioning brain and people around them invent them.

Now you may ask, if they don't exist how can people invent them? It goes like this:

There is no standard universal notion of good and evil. It's all relative. Because humans operate the way they do in groups, we fall into a pattern of acceptable and unacceptable behavior. Obviously some people can be brought up ina Christian household and still turn into a serial killer. Some people can be brought up by maniacs and turn into priests. That's because people choose their idea of good and evil, or change it as they go along.

Religion attempts to convince us that not only is there good and evil, each is represented by an anthropomorphic being, and that choosing the "good" guy is met with rewards and choosing the "evil" is met with punishment. Naturally the only way to really get your rewards is to pay tribute to the good guy, which ranges from simply acknowledging their existence to paying money to giving your life.

Originally posted by nj2day
reply to post by Gregor100

 

Now, when we go to the north pole, and don't find santa's workshop, this must mean he exists in the 10th dimension...

no obviusly we dont he lives in lap land people theses days ay

i like your points about god allways being just out of the reach of human discovery

This OP has been proven to be false.

The OP himself won't stand up to refute such points.

Once again, poor reasoning and stupidity have been illuminated for what they are on ATS.

Deny ignorance.

reply to post by nj2day


I think it's a type of situation which is quite hard to bring evidence to, as, there being no way for me or you to walk over into "heaven" or another dimension video tape everyone having a jolly good old time and come back with the footage.

However, you can research the Pam Reynolds NDE case, which is quite an eye opener. A neurologist, brain surgeon and a plethora of other surgeons all testified to what she had "seen" while clinically dead.

Originally posted by nj2day
its nothing more than a label we come up with to describe what is currently acceptable and unacceptable within the current moral zeitgeist.

Ok, earlier you were debating about the "Riddle of Epicurus" and evil, now you are telling us that evil is "just a label and nothing more"? You don't have your logic straight...

...so when someone murders someone , all that is to you, is a "label"?

The act itself, of killing someone, is a force, an action, a cause. Which has also an effect.

How is that just a "label"? Seems to me like an actual force of destruction.

Originally posted by nj2day
What I consider good, someone else may consider evil...

The same goes for YOU and GOD.

Someone (thrashee?) was just trying to explain this to you earlier, that humans have limited knowledge, and compared to God, we humans have a completely different opinion about good and evil....

You were just using "evil" as a basis to prove God doesn't exist, when you yourself also acknowledge that "what you consider good, someone else may consider evil"... Do you realize that this same could be true for God?

What YOU consider "evil", God may have a perfectly valid reason for thinking differently than you...

So how can you actually use the "riddle of Epicurus" to support your claims, when you believe that everyone has different opinion about evil?



[edit on 22-2-2009 by ALLis0NE]

I think that most religion is delusion. lots of ignorant people who are trying their best to make sense of the world around them. Exagerations that were tolerated for morale.

Originally posted by thrashee

God cannot be omnipotent and omniscient because God could change the future, and thus somehow "break" omniscience.

Perhaps you'll have to explain to me what you mean here, because I don't see how this logic proves or disproves anything. Are you saying that if God knows the future, then changes it, he can longer be omniscient because his first plan was wrong, or he can't imagine two versions of reality coexisting?

In any case I don't see how you can make any claims to disproving or proving anything by saying "somehow".If you don't know how exactly that would transpire you can't make any authoritive declarations.

But, again, I am open to the possibility that I misunderstood or you misspoke.

[edit on 22-2-2009 by Gigatronix]

Originally posted by Gigatronix
1: Evil does not exist.

So murderers don't exist?? Virus' and sickness don't exist?

Originally posted by Gigatronix
2: Good does not exist

Really, so people who save lives don't exist? People who give gifts and love don't exist?

Originally posted by Gigatronix
3:Every person with a functioning brain and people around them invent them.

Now you may ask, if they don't exist how can people invent them? It goes like this:

There is no standard universal notion of good and evil. It's all relative. Because humans operate the way they do in groups, we fall into a pattern of acceptable and unacceptable behavior. Obviously some people can be brought up ina Christian household and still turn into a serial killer. Some people can be brought up by maniacs and turn into priests. That's because people choose their idea of good and evil, or change it as they go along.

Religion attempts to convince us that not only is there good and evil, each is represented by an anthropomorphic being, and that choosing the "good" guy is met with rewards and choosing the "evil" is met with punishment.

Naturally the only way to really get your rewards is to pay tribute to the good guy, which ranges from simply acknowledging their existence to paying money to giving your life.

First you say good and evil doesn't exist, then you say humans invented it! You can't have both, I'm sorry...... It either exists, or it doesn't. You have flawed logic.

Then you say "There is no standard universal notion of good and evil." Well, the BIBLE, and GOD, servers a purpose... it's for setting a standard. Yet you choose to ignore it. If you would have actually read the Bible and comprehended what it said, you would understand that it is trying to set standards.

In order for a book to set standards of good and evil, it must have both good and evil thing inside of it...... this explains all the apparently evil verses in the Bible.

There is a thing called "common good". It is goodness that is common between all people, and itself is a "standard".

The Bible teaches that "Good = Construction, Evil = Destruction".
If people like YOU don't read the Bible, or at LEAST acknowledge the "common good" that is found in it, and you don't understand how belief in a "God" could help set standards... well then, you and your world are headed for destruction.

Originally posted by ALLis0NE

Originally posted by Gigatronix
1: Evil does not exist.

So murderers don't exist?? Virus' and sickness don't exist?

Originally posted by Gigatronix
2: Good does not exist

Really, so people who save lives don't exist? People who give gifts and love don't exist?

Originally posted by Gigatronix
3:Every person with a functioning brain and people around them invent them.

Now you may ask, if they don't exist how can people invent them? It goes like this:

There is no standard universal notion of good and evil. It's all relative. Because humans operate the way they do in groups, we fall into a pattern of acceptable and unacceptable behavior. Obviously some people can be brought up ina Christian household and still turn into a serial killer. Some people can be brought up by maniacs and turn into priests. That's because people choose their idea of good and evil, or change it as they go along.

Religion attempts to convince us that not only is there good and evil, each is represented by an anthropomorphic being, and that choosing the "good" guy is met with rewards and choosing the "evil" is met with punishment.

Naturally the only way to really get your rewards is to pay tribute to the good guy, which ranges from simply acknowledging their existence to paying money to giving your life.

First you say good and evil doesn't exist, then you say humans invented it! You can't have both, I'm sorry...... It either exists, or it doesn't. You have flawed logic.

Then you say "There is no standard universal notion of good and evil." Well, the BIBLE, and GOD, servers a purpose... it's for setting a standard. Yet you choose to ignore it. If you would have actually read the Bible and comprehended what it said, you would understand that it is trying to set standards.

In order for a book to set standards of good and evil, it must have both good and evil thing inside of it...... this explains all the apparently evil verses in the Bible.

There is a thing called "common good". It is goodness that is common between all people, and itself is a "standard".

The Bible teaches that "Good = Construction, Evil = Destruction".
If people like YOU don't read the Bible, or at LEAST acknowledge the "common good" that is found in it, and you don't understand how belief in a "God" could help set standards... well then, you and your world are headed for destruction.

Yikes, it's too late to be cutting up posts, so hopefully you can follow along.

Murderers exists because they're people, not a concept. You say it's evil, God could say its good according to your previous posts. Which is it, whos definition is the right one? Virus' are not evil sorry.

Paramedics and fire fighters and generous people exist because they're people, not concepts.

Yes I said good and evil dont exist, and I said people invent them. I suppose I could have worded that better. What I should have said is people invent their own definition of acceptable behavior and unacceptable behavior. When I say invent I mean they create a unique version. If you want to get into a semantic argument here, fine. Good and evil exist in the sense that people make generalisations about socially acceptable behavior which they label good and socially unacceptable behavior which they label evil.

Good and evil are not cosmic mandates, handed down by God. They are human constructs.

I would advise you not to make assumptions about me. I have read the Bible. I have on more than one occasion, on this very site, on the religious conspiracies forums, said that I appreciate that the Bible and other religious texts have meaningful messages about morality and noble behavior.

One quote by Jesus I live by: Let he who is without sin be the first to cast stones.

You have cast figurative stones against me, yet are not without sin. I suggest more study is in order for you.

reply to post by Gigatronix


thrashee was repeating the Original Post, and saying how ridiculous it is.

The OP claims:
"God cannot be omnipotent and omniscient because God could change the future, and thus somehow "break" omniscience."

The logic of the O.P. is completely ridiculous, because the "future" is something that didn't happen yet, and could be changed at any moment, and it would have no effect on having "all knowledge".

If anything, if God was omniscient that would mean he has knowledge of every possible future that could possibly exist. Even if you use your "free will", God will know the future of your choices also. Since it is the "future" that means it hasn't existed yet, and could still possibly change.

"God has an ultimate plan, and you have free will." That is another way of saying, "God laid the road's, and you can drive on any one you want. However all the road's lead to the same path in the end."


[edit on 22-2-2009 by ALLis0NE]

reply to post by Gigatronix


Good and evil are the terms used to discribed the effect of an action from an individual or collection of individual perspectives. If you were to see from the perspective of all life equaly then there is where you will find a usable logical definition. So i suppose empathy is a required first step to understanding such things.

reply to post by ALLis0NE

The Thrashee was absolutely correct!

And I absolutely misunderstood. Which seems obvious in hindsight since Thrashee doesn't appear likely to make such a elementary mistake.

My bad!

reply to post by Wertdagf
We are in agreement that good and evil are labels to describe actions viewed as acceptable and unacceptable.

I do not think personally that good and evil are persistent things in themselves though. If there were no people or sentient beings existing anywhere in the universe good and evil would not still exist. They exist as descriptive terms which require action to describe anything. It's not a force that acts on people.

reply to post by Gigatronix


If you were able to see through the perspective of all life then your understanding of "good" and "evil" would remain constant.

Originally posted by ALLis0NE
reply to post by Gigatronix

 

"God has an ultimate plan, and you have free will." That is another way of saying, "God laid the road's, and you can drive on any one you want. However all the road's lead to the same path in the end."

Personally I don't call that free will. Put a rat in a maze with multiple paths to the cheese at the end, finding his way to the end by choosing one of the paths is not free will. Choosing not to run through the maze, choosing water over cheese, choosing to leave the maze is free will. If you mean by the same end no matter which path you choose, the end is death, well that goes without saying, that's got nothing to do with free will that's just inevitable. If you're talking about the circumstances or the ramifications of your death, well, sorry I don't believe me getting hit by a drunk driver tomorrow or living to be 105 and dying in my sleep are divine purposes. It happens everyday to people and it will happen to me too. You can believe what you like, if it brings you comfort or peace, or confidence more power to you.

reply to post by Gigatronix

We are in agreement that good and evil are labels to describe actions viewed as acceptable and unacceptable.

I enjoy the morals debate. Recently saw a good youtube video about it.