Proving God to be fake... In under ten seconds...

Well, I believe that hell is going to be all of your worse nightmares.

Exactly like a bad dream. When you dream, everything you think about is going to happen in your dream, it's called lucid dreaming. Most people don't have control of their thoughts when they dream though, and their mind will think about something they fear, and when they see that fear in their dream, they will think about all the bad things that fear will do to them, and then that happens, because they are thinking about it. They start to repeatedly think fearful thoughts because they can't help it, and it turns into a nightmare.

That is what hell will be like. You will not have control, and it will be everything that you fear.

So I take that back, if you are afraid of pitchforks, then yes pitchforks will be in hell.

Originally posted by TruthParadox
So you don't believe those things will ever be solved?
Seriously?

Not truly. You can create the illusion of solving it, but no you can not really solve it. AI is capable of amazing things, make no mistake about it. It will be able to do things humans are not capable of in speeds humans are not capable of. But even then it will have it's limits without actual consciousness.

When you think of things, you are putting your consciousness into it, and you do not realize it. The AI doesn't "see" the images, it doesn't observe anything at all. It all simply breaks down to a bunch of patterns, like gears on a machine. Very very complex and capable of many things, but it will always lack a soul/consciousness. Because of this, it is unable to create it's own logic. It is unable to improve itself, it is incapable of original thought.

Look, I don't know exactly how the human brain works or exactly how to program AI (we're still learning many things about the brain).
But, I do know that our universe works on cause/reaction.

Yes, our universe does work on cause/reaction. This is the realm of science, and science is good at it. But consciousness works on reason and understanding. 2 levels, and they need to be treated as such. And if humans don't learn to find balance and understanding of the different levels, then the future is not pretty. Science is the 1st level, cause and reaction. Philosophy, consciousness and spirit is the 2nd level. I'm not stuck between them, I combine them.

You believe that intelligence can never be duplicated.
That means that you believe that we have reactions which do NOT have a cause.
Seriously man, think about that...

You just can't seem to grasp the difference between being nothing but action and reaction and actually being able to observe, view and understand things. The moon goes around the earth because it is subject to cause and action. It does not observe.

Everything we do has a source.
And because it has a source, that source can be duplicated.

You mean the father?

If you seriously want to argue against that, then tell me how a person can form a thought which is independent of the Universe.

The universe is the thought itself.

You can't.
Thoughts don't come out of thin air... they just don't.

But matter and existence does?

There is an equation behind it all - no matter how strong the illusion appears.

Yes there is, and consciousness created it.



[edit on 25-2-2009 by badmedia]

Originally posted by ALLis0NE
Well, I believe that hell is going to be all of your worse nightmares.

Exactly like a bad dream. When you dream, everything you think about is going to happen in your dream, it's called lucid dreaming. Most people don't have control of their thoughts when they dream though, and their mind will think about something they fear, and when they see that fear in their dream, they will think about all the bad things that fear will do to them, and then that happens, because they are thinking about it. They start to repeatedly think fearful thoughts because they can't help it, and it turns into a nightmare.

That is what hell will be like. You will not have control, and it will be everything that you fear.

So I take that back, if you are afraid of pitchforks, then yes pitchforks will be in hell.

I agree with you here. Coversely, i believe "heaven" to be the opposite of what you described; anything you find comforting or joyful would be your heaven. You wnat to be reunited with lost loved ones and old friends? It will happen. I think probably the difference bewteen our two theories on this is that you probably believe there is only white and black with no grey, whereas I believe the majority of us will fall into a grey area. I also don't believe I will have an eternal nightmare because I had sex before marriage, did some drugs, and didnt believe in God. If I was murderer, rapist and'or thief I probably would though.

Originally posted by TruthParadox
Just curios... What do you believe Hell is?
I'm guessing from your previous posts that you don't buy into the fire and pitchforks...

No clue, I've never been there.

If I had to take a guess, I'd say it's pretty much like the earth. But not in a way of good times, more like being in Africa in one of those countries where wars and such are going on. I do not think such a place would be eternal, I think rather it's a path you take that leads to bad places, and you can walk out, should you repent(change your way/path).

As you reap what you sow, if you sow bad things then that is what you can expect in return. The good ole causality of the universe itself. If you do good things, that that is what you will sow. And the hypocrite is the one who is most screwed because they can only see what they do is good, but it's actually bad and so they don't know why they reap bad things.

But I'm pretty sure all things of the spirit of god(consciousness/soul) will eventually return back to that source, and so I think the real difference is if you exist as an individual soul at all.

Unlike others, I don't care to see, know, or support the idea of people suffering in hell. I can't rule it out, because I don't know. But it would be hard for me to believe it was anything other than something the person creates for themselves.

I hope the earth is about as close to it as I will ever get.

Originally posted by Gigatronix
You obviosly deal in absolutes which is your fatal flaw.

Absolute

The Absolute is the concept of an unconditional reality which transcends limited, conditional, everyday existence. It is often used as an alternate term for "God" or "the Divine", especially, but by no means exclusively, by those who feel that the term "God" lends itself too easily to anthropomorphic presumptions. The concept of The Absolute may or may not (depending on one's specific doctrine) possess discrete will, intelligence, awareness or even a personal nature. It contrasts with finite things, considered individually, and known collectively as the relative.

Just scan through the above Wiki, it's interesting.

Examples of religions and philosophies which embrace the concept of the Absolute in one form or another include Hinduism, Jainism, Taoism, Sufism and existential or metaphysical forms of Christianity.

reply to post by ALLis0NE
yes that is interesting, but that's not what I meant by you dealing only in absolutes. Allow me to rephrase. What I mean is, you deal in extremes, either black or white, pure good or pure evil, yes or no, positive or negative. the universe doesn't always function in such a defined manner, and humans definately don't. you are not pure good and I am not pure evil, we both are somewhere in a gray area. It would seem you define your beliefs in "absolute" terms; you are 100% right and I am 100% wrong, when in reality we both are signifigantly less than 100% either way. I respect your beliefs, i would hope you would respect mine, and hopefully we both can agree that neither of us are 100% right. If we both can do this(and indeed if only the whole world could) there would be less arguing and more tolerance.

That is all that I ask of you, and anyone I encounter, accept that you don't have all the answers, and I appreciate that I dont either. We are all learning. We can learn more through intelligent debate than through biased argument.

Originally posted by Good Wolf
reply to post by JPhish

 

Originally posted by JPhish

Originally posted by Good Wolf
reply to post by JPhish

 

The future would be changed constantly by a humans "Freewill" making future outcomes entirely unpredictable.

incorrect.

That so. Well future outcomes didn't change because of freewill, and were fixed, that would mean they are predetermined.

If our actions are predetermined, freewill doesn't exist.

true, but that's not what you claimed in your previous posts. You claimed that "if there is "free will" the future is impossible to predict". I disagree.

[edit on 2/26/2009 by JPhish]

reply to post by badmedia


Well that's the difference between us.
I don't believe that consciousness is something all together special.
I believe that it does run on hidden patterns and equations and is, in a sense, an illusion.
I believe that a robot could be just as aware of it's faculties.
I believe that robots could learn (pattern recognition).
I believe that a robot could be given no starting language and could learn based on patterns and actions and subtle tones - just as children do.
I just don't see how what you say could be true because if it were then that would seem to go against much of what we've learned about our universe and the human brain.

But anyway, it's pointless to continue this because the root of the debate comes down to our own views of what consciousness is.
And my brain hurts to be honest .

Originally posted by TruthParadox
reply to post by badmedia

 

Well that's the difference between us.
I don't believe that consciousness is something all together special.
I believe that it does run on hidden patterns and equations and is, in a sense, an illusion.
I believe that a robot could be just as aware of it's faculties.
I believe that robots could learn (pattern recognition).
I believe that a robot could be given no starting language and could learn based on patterns and actions and subtle tones - just as children do.
I just don't see how what you say could be true because if it were then that would seem to go against much of what we've learned about our universe and the human brain.

But anyway, it's pointless to continue this because the root of the debate comes down to our own views of what consciousness is.
And my brain hurts to be honest

.

I give consciousness to the realm of imagination...what makes imagination seem "real". So this would be in the domain of illusion. It is the domain of "energy". I think of consciousness as *super-con*...the realm of deception. As Einstein once said, man's experience, is "an optical delusion of consciousness". Super-con is like another mind...a machine-like mind, inside a real mind. It confuses the real mind about itself. In the end, consciousness will "pass away".

Christ!

reply to post by Christ!


Consciousness is what is called your soul. It is the only thing that doesn't pass away. I think you are referring to individual consciousness/self. And I believe that is debatable in terms of how long until that is gone, but that all do eventually return. This is where we disagree, the path and journey back is the point of it to begin with.

The true joy is not so much in knowing, but learning and finding out.

Originally posted by TruthParadox
reply to post by badmedia

 

Well that's the difference between us.
I don't believe that consciousness is something all together special.
I believe that it does run on hidden patterns and equations and is, in a sense, an illusion.
I believe that a robot could be just as aware of it's faculties.
I believe that robots could learn (pattern recognition).
I believe that a robot could be given no starting language and could learn based on patterns and actions and subtle tones - just as children do.
I just don't see how what you say could be true because if it were then that would seem to go against much of what we've learned about our universe and the human brain.

But anyway, it's pointless to continue this because the root of the debate comes down to our own views of what consciousness is.
And my brain hurts to be honest

.

In order for their to be an illusion, there has to be something to observe it.

And yes, as long as you don't realize the significance of being an observer, then the discussion is pointless. I've been saying that for awhile.

All those things can be done with AI, but all it will ever be is a bunch of patterns, that it would appear conscious to you is the only illusion.

Maybe you don't actually view things and don't observe, but I do. I have no way of knowing if you do or not.



[edit on 26-2-2009 by badmedia]

Originally posted by badmedia
reply to post by Christ!

 

Consciousness is what is called your soul. It is the only thing that doesn't pass away. I think you are referring to individual consciousness/self. And I believe that is debatable in terms of how long until that is gone, but that all do eventually return. This is where we disagree, the path and journey back is the point of it to begin with.

The true joy is not so much in knowing, but learning and finding out.

I think of consciousness as an individual self...as in, self-concept. It is one step away from Self...which it does not willingly recognize. The path back is one step beyond consciousness, just beyond perception. We came from knowledge and go back to it. Knowledge is not anything imagined. It is beyond imagination. It is better than imagination, beyond what we can imagine is "good".

Christ!

Admittedly it's impossible to know when talking about a being wearing the omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent labels. Nevertheless.

People argue that such a being (ok, God) knowing what our every action will be doesn't step on our free will, but here is what troubles me:

Apparently God has a Divine Plan. For all of us, but he is the one who devised it (what gives? Why wasn't I asked for my opinion?)

Now when you say Plan, you imply a Goal, the Ultimate Conclusion.
God being God, he should already know what that Goal/UC is, and how it is achieved (the Grand Journey).

He should also already know whether a small fry like me is part of that Conclusion. Or not.

So, if we're part of a plan, HIS Plan, how much freedom do we really have?

Originally posted by Anomander
Admittedly it's impossible to know when talking about a being wearing the omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent labels. Nevertheless.

People argue that such a being (ok, God) knowing what our every action will be doesn't step on our free will, but here is what troubles me:

Apparently God has a Divine Plan. For all of us, but he is the one who devised it (what gives? Why wasn't I asked for my opinion?)

Now when you say Plan, you imply a Goal, the Ultimate Conclusion.
God being God, he should already know what that Goal/UC is, and how it is achieved (the Grand Journey).

He should also already know whether a small fry like me is part of that Conclusion. Or not.

So, if we're part of a plan, HIS Plan, how much freedom do we really have?

Think of the manifestation of "the cosmos" as an expression of free will...*your* free will.
You were free before the expression, so, the expression is the expression of unfreedom.
You are free to be unfree, so-to-speak.
You are both the manifester, and the manifested...within the cosmos of unfreedom.
In the cosmos of unfreedom, your every action is "known".
Your every action is "known" because your every action is *scripted*.
This is how the freedom to be unfree is expressed.
You are free to act in a script.
So long as you choose to act within scripts, you are not "free".
No one in any of the scripts within the cosmos are "free"...within scripts.
They must follow their lines.
Their unfreedom is masked by multiple-choice scripts.
So, there is the appearance of decision-making [ie. choice]...but it is not really true freedom.
It's a deception.
As long as you keep deciding on your own, you keep fooling yourself.

True freedom preceded the expression of unfreedom in the name of "freedom".
We are also free to be stupid, by why?
Those within scripts have only two choices...remain in scripts, or exodus scripts altogether.
Scripts operate by deception...offering many reasons why you are "free", or why a return to true freedom is not necessary or not wanted or not possible.
The "plan" of scripts is to keep you within scripts..."forever".
The "plan", therefore, is to trap you.

The "plan" of GoD is to free you from self-made traps and self-inflicted prison.
The One who knows the "plan" of GoD does know what you will "do" because He knows the plan you made to entrap yourself forever in a confusing labyrinth of lies.
The One with the plan of GoD simply offers you the choice to follow his plan to freedom, or your plan for more slavery.
Once you are truly free, you can freely choose to express slavery again.
But, why would you?
Before you were a slave, you were free, and knew not what it means to be a slave.
Now that you have been a slave, you will not be tempted to go back to it.

The plan of true salvation is the plan to set you free...who are free...and who always was free.
The plan of salvation asks that you make all your decisions based upon One Who *knows all*.
When you do this, you follow the fast track out of scripts altogether, and are set free.

Christ!



[edit on 27-2-2009 by Christ!]

reply to post by Gregor100

If you can change the future you are not omniscient.

If you cannot you are not omnipotent.

Myth busted"

Pretty hard evidence right there....

All you've 'proved' is that the 'notion of God' is inconcievable to the human mind.

You've also 'proved' another thing - you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

reply to post by Gregor100


Which future do you want God to change? Your conception of God is still too small. Moreover you are wasting your time with pointless semantics. Why not ask if God can create an immovable object that even he can't move? etc. etc.

I suggest you start to ask how it is possible, if the God of the Bible doesn't exist, that the nation of Israel was reborn and that the Jews now all speak Hebrew, which was a dead language prior to the formation of modern Israel. All this is in fulfillment of a 2500 year old Biblical prophesy.

Explain that first and then worry about stupid semantics later.

thtat could easily be flipped and back to you by countering with a "they could have tanslated the origanal text wrong" or they just plain ol used not the best word.