Florida School Security Officer Tasers 11-Year-Old Girl

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy


She punched a police officer in the course of making an arrest. So she was up to level five on that chart, the officer was allowed to incapacitate her.

That chart is of course almost 3 years old, and ECD’s are now standard non-lethal devices here in FL. From what my law enforcement officer friends tell me they are the same level as a chemical agent, and are to be used prior to attempting a take down on a physically active resisting person.

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy



actually, i cant say with any authority if theres a level between taser and 9mm, none that would be appropriate with a child thats for sure.

cmon, you know there are some of you that are appalled by this that had she busted out a 12g with beanbags you'd have asked "well why not the taser?"

not even i would have seen the need for a beanbag round in this instance.


oh, and for everyone worried about all these "amps" you should know that its like .36J per pulse. for comparison they start the defibrillators at 200j so.....

Originally posted by defcon5

She punched a police officer in the course of making an arrest. So she was up to level five on that chart, the officer was allowed to incapacitate her.

That chart is of course almost 3 years old, and ECD’s are now standard non-lethal devices here in FL. From what my law enforcement officer friends tell me they are the same level as a chemical agent, and are to be used prior to attempting a take down on a physically active resisting person.

So does 'incapacitate' mean up to lethal?

What did you infer from Commander Hopkins saying the deputy could have used 'higher force'.? Lethal?

From what I am collecting from what you guys are saying, and putting that into context to what Commander Hopkins said has got my mind in a tangle

The same thing happend to a 13 year old boy in A school at Rockingham
in Perth Western Australia But he had a knife and was trying to stab a teacher I think its better useing a tazar than shooting the kid

Originally posted by Damocles
actually, i cant say with any authority if theres a level between taser and 9mm, none that would be appropriate with a child thats for sure.

I didn't see these Resistance Levels differentiating between children and adults. If there is a child version of the Resistance Levels then thats what we should be looking at.

cmon, you know there are some of you that are appalled by this that had she busted out a 12g with beanbags you'd have asked "well why not the taser?"

I am still trying to figure everyting out. At the moment I can't understand how this officer was not able to restrain her with unarmed combat. Yeah she was a fatty, whatever. I might be biased as I have extensive unarmed and armed training, but I thought officers of the law did as well..

To be honest with you guys that is the first time I have actually found the “Use of Force Matrix” online. My officer friends had told me about it, and stated that I would not find a copy of it unless they gave me one. I am pretty shocked at how fast that it goes up. Just for being present at a crime scene an officer can go all the way up to putting you in restraints. If you do not follow a “Lawful Verbal Command” (Passive Resistance), they can take it up to pain, and if you struggle at all with them after that, you are only one checkbox short of lethal force. I wish I could cut and paste that matrix in the thread here, I think many folks would be shocked at how much leeway that officers are given to escalate the situation, and many folks who are in those situations would know when an officer is escalating it and how to make it stop.

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy


As I said, that was an old matrix, that was used in a senate study, its not up to date. From what I have been verbally told by law enforcement friends, the ECD is now at the same level as a Chemical Agent (aka Pepper Spray), and the officer could have actually gone up to incapacitation. Exactly what incapacitation means I do not know, but I can try and find out. Also from the way its been explained to me, they are required to apply a chemical agent or ECD before attempting a take-down of an actively resisting person, for both their and the subjects safety. It was explained to me that this was a matter of law by today’s standards, and they could actually be in trouble for doing a take-down without using something to “calm” the person down some first, as it shocks them into ceasing the struggle long enough to get the restraints on without hurting themselves or the officer.


[edit on 3/29/2008 by defcon5]

I find it ironic that there are so many that simply do not want to see that this "child" is not some little 11 year old girl. Being 5' 5" and 150 - 200 pounds is not a little child. What you have here is a child in an adult body. She is quite capable of causing physical harm or even death without knowing it due to physical size.

Should she have threatened the officer with a chair that could have placed the officer in a possible life threating situation the officer might have busted a cap. However, the officer chose to use a tazer on a combative subject to defuse the situation after being injured by the suspect. This most likely was the best course of action at the time. Taking down a combative suspect doesn't always work the way they taught you in class.

Saying, its just a kid is not an acceptable answer in the light that she attempted to push a fellow student into on coming traffic along with violent behavior. Should she have succeeded, serious injury or death to the fellow student is still injury or death. So are we to tell the "little" darling that it was a no no and she gets a 10 minute time out? I think not.

Quit busting the officers bum because they used a tazer and look at the real problem, this kid has issues!! Better to get tazed and the issues addressed before she does something really bad and spend her life in prison or is killed.

I have raised two daughters, both are married. One was a real handful and the other a parents dream. Both received the board of education applied to the seat of knowledge as needed, no ill effects.

It looks like little 11 year old bratninski needs some tough love. Straighten out the issues now before its too late.

I am so tired of hearing about these pansy cops using tazers and other devices on kids. Get in shape and learn some moves to apprehend a child in a safe controlled manner. They have classes on dealing with such things, they teach it to workers who deal with mentally ill people.

we need tougher cops, period. I would laugh at the cop for doing that. oh a short fat girl with a chair is not life threating. A girl carrying a gun is.


sorry didnt read the thread comments but wanted to ad my 2 cents.



[edit on 29-3-2008 by Optix]

Originally posted by Damocles
i agree but i think its more than that. somewhere along the line this child, who at 11 years old should bloody well know right from wrong, thoguht it was a good idea to try to harm first a classmate then a teacher then an officer.

um....maybe her parents need to be tasered as well?

LOL

I would taser her too if she was throwing desks and chairs, and had just punched me in the face. Better than beating her with a night stick, but whatever works.

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy

Originally posted by defcon5

She punched a police officer in the course of making an arrest. So she was up to level five on that chart, the officer was allowed to incapacitate her.

That chart is of course almost 3 years old, and ECD’s are now standard non-lethal devices here in FL. From what my law enforcement officer friends tell me they are the same level as a chemical agent, and are to be used prior to attempting a take down on a physically active resisting person.

So does 'incapacitate' mean up to lethal?

What did you infer from Commander Hopkins saying the deputy could have used 'higher force'.? Lethal?

From what I am collecting from what you guys are saying, and putting that into context to what Commander Hopkins said has got my mind in a tangle

I think he was just being facetious. It doesn't mean lethal. She used level 4 on the kid, when the situation was a level 5. Hopkins is just saying that she could have used level 5 (i.e. knocked her unconscious) but she just tazed her bro!

A taser is an ECD (Electronic Control Device) and not an "incapacitating device." It's an "Intermediate Weapon." I know that doesn't even make sense, as it is arguable that it does incapacitate you, but that doesn't seem to be how Florida sees it. Level 5 basically means the officer could have used hand to hand combat against the girl and debilitating nerve strikes, or just knocked her out cold, it seems.

I found this use of force policy dated March 7, 2007. It's pretty up to date I suppose.

www.president.ufl.edu...

10. Level Four - Officer Control.
Intermediate Weapons - Weapons that are primarily used to render a subject controllable such as a baton, ASR [pepper spray], or Taser

11. Level Five - Officer Control.
Techniques that are intended to temporarily incapacitate the subject, delivered with or without intermediate weapons,
such as a strike to a major nerve area.

12. Level Six - Officer Control.
Lethal Defensive Action - Techniques that may result in imminent death or great bodily harm, such as impact weapon
strikes to the head or joints, neck restraints, and use of firearms. Lethal defensive actions should only be used as a last
resort

Originally posted by cavscout
reply to post by Damocles

 

Do you know how small an 11 year old is?

ANY PERSON who puts on a uniform and wears a lethal devise on their belt should be able to restrain an 11 year old with ABSOLUTELY NO PROBLEM.

We have gotten so PC in our culture that we allow small women to do the jobs that once belonged to large men. NOT EVERYONE IS EQUAL, not everyone is qualified to do the same jobs, and that is why this 11 year LITTLE GIRL got electrocuted.

Eleven-year old girls are much bigger nowadays. Mine is almost as big as I am and wears some of my old clothes.

Eleven-year old little girl? Eleven-year old hoodlum is more like it. She's already a bully, assault and batterer, attempted murderer, etc. She needs to be locked up before she kills someone!

Originally posted by cavscout
reply to post by Damocles
ANY PERSON who puts on a uniform and wears a lethal devise on their belt should be able to restrain an 11 year old with ABSOLUTELY NO PROBLEM.

I don't know the specifics of this case but some adults are small, some are not qualified either mentally or physically to be in a security position but sometimes people looking to eat will take whatever job they can get and school districts, looking to save money, won't offer enough to attract qualified applicants.

I don't think I can agree on tasering the girl as I don't think its necessary. A girl that young could easily be placed in restraints until the parents arrived. If the parents failed to come pickher up with her expulsion papers, send her to juvenile hall for a night. Let her think it over. The problem with tasers are that they could kill someone of that age. There is no disputing that some sort of disciplinary action was called for, but a security guard could restrain a girl of that age and size without the electricity. Regardless, I'm not feeling much sympathy.

Originally posted by Nookster

I don't know the specifics of this case but some adults are small, some are not qualified either mentally or physically to be in a security position but sometimes people looking to eat will take whatever job they can get and school districts, looking to save money, won't offer enough to attract qualified applicants.

That's a reason not an excuse.

That's starting to become my ATS slogan

Originally posted by Jessicamsa

Eleven-year old little girl? Eleven-year old hoodlum is more like it. She's already a bully, assault and batterer, attempted murderer, etc. She needs to be locked up before she kills someone!

A very big 11 year old girl with a learning disability. With a history of disruption at school but nothing serious.

Everyone is soooo sure she attempted to murder another student yet neither a teacher nor the officer witnessed this. This was all based on the testimony of another student. One young kids word against the other. I am not saying she didn't, but I don't see why alot of you are saying it so absolutely..

[edit on 043131p://29u29 by Lucid Lunacy]

So there are people advocating the assault on a child - well done your 1 tiny step away from saying that sex with a child is also `ok`.

filthy animals.

Fitst give them pills and tell them to obey.

If they do not obey, taze them.

If that does not help, process them to the nearest detention fascility.

Can you see a pattern?

Originally posted by Harlequin
So there are people advocating the assault on a child - well done your 1 tiny step away from saying that sex with a child is also `ok`.

filthy animals.

I am utterly shocked by some of the posts I have read here.

My position is this:

no one, except another child student, witnessed her 'attempt to murder' anyone.. therefore that shouldn't have been a factor.

When the officer came in, which no doubt would have been scary to the kid, the officer should have asked her to come with, to escort the girl out of the class. Which of course the officer did. The child resisted and got aggressive. This is where the officers training comes in. A veteran officer of the law should be able to restrain and handcuff an 11 year old girl, even if she was fat. It's called unarmed combat. Martial arts if you want to call it that. It really wouldn't take much to get an 11 year old girl in an arm-bar or a choke-hold. If she didn't have the skill to do so then why was she the schools security? Her inability to do so is not a valid excuse for the officer to of escalated it to a taser. Absurd. Get a new job.

Yes I realize some here think an arm-bar and or a choke-hold is worse then a taser. My reply to that is this: have you been ignoring all the horrible taser threads?.. Has there been clinical research on the affects tasers have on children? The articles specifically said there hasn't been that research done..

Neverminding the fact that it hurts like hell.. Worse then the punch to the nose..

[edit on 053131p://29u26 by Lucid Lunacy]

Originally posted by Souljah
Fitst give them pills and tell them to obey.

If they do not obey, taze them.

If that does not help, process them to the nearest detention fascility.

Can you see a pattern?

Souljah, didn't you know? We are born into sin. Their top-down approach is justified because of this!

Soon step one will be to genetically alter these out-of-control hoodlems during fetal development!