Florida School Security Officer Tasers 11-Year-Old Girl

reply to post by gimme_some_truth



sorry i missed your post a few pages back and wanted to reply.

believe it or not i DO see where youre coming from and i can respect that you dont like 'what if's' but you have to admit they can and do happen usually at the worst possible time.

you may see NVCI as simple self defense but the person you are using them against means to do you harm and at some point you must shift from a defensive stance to an offensive one if you want to take this person into custody unless your intent is to stand there and defend until they tire out and give up but the longer you do that the better the chances of a 'what if' have to occur.

Then what?

well, you have what we have here. the officer tried to restrain the child, a 'what if' popped up and she responded. maybe not to your satisfaction but that doesnt mean it wasnt justified and even you should agree that the taser is better than more aggressive hand to hand combat which has a greater chance of harming the child long term than a taser does.

maybe you dont agree...but i guess we'll have to agree to disagree then

Originally posted by Zaphod58
Again, this is NOT a police officer we're talking about. A Law Enforcement Officer and police officer are NOT the same thing. This was an LEO, who doesn't get the training that police officers get in unarmed combat. Even if she HAD, Florida law requires the use of either pepper spray/mace, or a taser BEFORE grabbing the person.

You clearly misread my post.

I am not arguing with any of those points... In fact what you just said was part of my point..

As I stated in an ealier post, I acknowledged that when you brought it up. Actually I think I can infer from that post that you havn't read many of my posts in this thread. No biggie I guess.

I was simply stating that these school LEOs should get the training necessary to employ unarmed combat. Not that they have it. This way if the situation called for it, as I feel was the case here, then they could use it, prior to escalating it to 'higher' forces.

I was saying because this is a school with children, that this is even more critical.

As I already stated many times, in lew of Defcons post, we should not attack the officer but Floridas Law itself as it does indeed state the officer should use a taser or a chemical agent first. I said that. Many times. In my previous post, I was stating the way I thought things could, and should change. Not the way things are. Hence my use of operative phrases such as "what are your thoughts on the matter". I understand the way you communicate that much more now. Duely noted Zap.

Just to reiterate:

If LEOs dont get the training, then they shouldn't be the school security armed with tasers. They should use Law Enforcement officers then. Or... train the LEOs better. Considering the context, it's a legitamte request, a legitmate concern for the children.

She tried to kill a student and she doesnt deserve to get tasered?

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy


Uhm, I wasn't talking to you. I was talking to the guy right above me that mentioned if an 11 year old could do this to a police officer.... I understood everything that you said perfectly, I just didn't hit the "reply to" button on his post.

Again we have an example of modern parenting. The child probably has no proper male role model in their life and the mother is a "spare-the-rod-spoil-the-child" person with little love for society herself. As my grandpa always said, "a session behind the woodpile wouldn't hurt her".

But noooooooooooooooooo we can't raise a hand to our kids without it being analyzed 6 ways to Sunday and THEN be proven wrong. We now have a society that is thinking 2 or 3 times before doing nothing about any serious issue.

She got what she deserved. The officer showed considerable restraint in allowing the child to throw things and spit before using the lesser of force. As a cop I would have done the same thing, calling out a warning of 'tazer' three times beforehand. As an ex-cop I would have done the same thing. As a classmate, I'd have ganged up on her and kicked her ***.

But thats just me. Have a nice day/night/week/month/year I have to make supper.

Originally posted by jmarmoro1
She tried to kill a student and she doesnt deserve to get tasered?

If you read the articles...or the posts in this thread, you would know that no one witnessed this 'attempted murder' except for another child student. Neither the officer nor the teachers witnessed this. Wow this part should be sticked on every page..

Originally posted by Zaphod58


Uhm, I wasn't talking to you. I was talking to the guy right above me that mentioned if an 11 year old could do this to a police officer.... I understood everything that you said perfectly, I just didn't hit the "reply to" button on his post.

oh...

Well I guess i'm the arsehole then

Originally posted by Damocles
and even you should agree that the taser is better than more aggressive hand to hand combat which has a greater chance of harming the child long term than a taser does.

The article itself stated there has been no clinical research as to the affects a tazer has on a developing child.

Also, the 'saftey' aspect of unarmed combat has a direct relationship to the amount of training someone has in the unarmed combative arts. Ask someone in Judo, or Jujuistu or other grappling arts. They limit the beginners because it's not safe, but as they gain some skill they allow way more flexibility in the techiniques employed because they know how to make it safe.

A school security officer armed with a tazer gun should have enough training to make simple grappling techiniques safe. At the very least, safer then a tazer, which we have no idea how safe it really is. But we do know how safe a properly delivered arm-bar or rear-choke-hold is, for example.

[edit on 053131p://29u41 by Lucid Lunacy]

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy


and youve never seen or heard of anyone injured from having even an appropriately applied choke hold or arm bar?

be honest now

Im still amazed by how many people dont see anything wrong with shocking a child. It may have been a couple of years since I worked in a primary school but either 11year old children have recently all been fathered by the incredible hulk or child abuse just became legally sanctioned.

Originally posted by tarichar
Im still amazed by how many people dont see anything wrong with shocking a child. It may have been a couple of years since I worked in a primary school but either 11year old children have recently all been fathered by the incredible hulk or child abuse just became legally sanctioned.

No no you are right, Bruce Banner has been a very very busy boy in the last decade and some change.

Originally posted by Damocles
reply to post by Lucid Lunacy

 

and youve never seen or heard of anyone injured from having even an appropriately applied choke hold or arm bar?

be honest now

I have. I have also heard of someone getting struck by lightning twice.

The chances of it happening are drastically decreased as the relative training is increased.

Don't forget to factor in the fact that no clinical research has been conducted on the affects tazers have on children, whos bodies and brains are still in that crucial develpment stage, and thus susceptible to permanent alterations and damge in general.

Yes I would rather an 11 year olds arm get spraned over getting zapped by an electric shock device. Again, even that is fairly rare, especially against a child, if the person has proper training.

Somewhat relevant, but interesting info on tasers to add to the discussion from Wiki:

TASER International has admitted in a training bulletin that repeated blasts of a taser can "impair breathing and respiration". Also, on Taser's website[2] it is stated that, for a subject in a state known as "excited delirium" (a controversial term in itself), repeated or prolonged stuns with the Taser can contribute to "significant and potentially fatal health risks".

Police officers in at least five US states have filed lawsuits against TASER International claiming they suffered serious injuries after being shocked with the device during training classes

Use in schools and on children
Police officers that patrol schools, including grade schools, in several U.S. states (including Kansas, Minnesota, Kentucky, and Florida), currently carry tasers. In 2004, the parents of a 6-year old boy in Miami sued the police department for tasering their child. The police said the boy was threatening to injure his own leg with a shard of glass, and claimed that using the taser was the only option to stop the boy from injuring himself. TASER International asserts that the taser is safe for use on anyone weighing 60 pounds (27 kg) or more. Nevertheless, the boy's mother told CNN that the three officers involved might have found it easier to reason with her child. Two weeks later, a 12-year-old girl skipping school was tasered in Miami-Dade.[19]

Supporters of taser use in schools argue that merely switching on the device, and threatening to use it, can be effective in frightening violent or uncooperative students into desisting from inappropriate behavior, if verbal reprimands have not succeeded. Critics counter that tasers may interact with preexisting medical complications such as medications, and may even contribute to someone's death as a result. Thus, critics say, they should either be prohibited altogether in schools, or classified as possibly lethal weapons and as a consequence, should be regulated very tightly. Critics also argue that using a taser on a minor, and especially a young child, is effectively cruel and abusive punishment, and therefore it should be banned on the same grounds that other, older forms of physical punishment such as canings have been banned from use in many schools. [20] [21] [22] [23] [24]

Notable taser deaths
In October and November 2007, four individuals died after being tasered in Canada, leading to calls for review of its use. The highest-profile of these cases was that of Robert Dziekański, a non-English speaking man from Poland who died in less than two minutes after being tasered by Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP) at the Vancouver International Airport, October 14, 2007.[25][26] The tasering was captured on home video and was broadcast nationally.[27] This was followed by three further death-after-Tasering incidents in Montreal, Halifax, Nova Scotia, and Chilliwack, British Columbia, leading Amnesty International to demand Taser use end in Canada, as it had records of 16 other such deaths in the country.[28] On November 18, 2007, a 20-year-old man in Frederick, Maryland fell unconscious and died also right after being tasered.[29]

On December 12, 2007, in response to the death of Robert Dziekański, Public Safety Minister Stockwell Day requested that the federal Commission for Public Complaints Against the RCMP (CPC) prepare recommendations for immediate implementation. The CPC report recommended to "immediately restrict the use of the conducted energy weapon (CEW)" by reclassifying it as an "impact weapon."[30]

A 2004 CBS News report described 70 deaths believed to be caused by the Taser, including 10 in August 2004 alone.[31] At that time Amnesty International has reported this number at 150 since June 2001,[32] including the case of Robert Guerrero, 21, of Texas, who died after being tasered by police while hiding after illegally hooking up electrical equipment.[33]

[edit on 063131p://29u45 by Lucid Lunacy]

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy
I have. I have also heard of someone getting struck by lightning twice.

The chances of it happening are drastically decreased as the relative training is increased.

fair enough.

however...youre a professional fighter right? or if not pro then at least an amateur who competes and so to that end you spend a LOT of time training. 3 times a week? more?

we both know that to keep skills requires practice and that much of that learning well then having your skills "kick in" when needed if you dont practice is BS.

police simple do not have time to spend half their duty day in the dojo.

its unreasonable to even think they would, and i know you didnt suggest such a thing im just saying.

yes, no ones ever shocked kids with a tazer in the lab repeatedly to see what happens...but we know what they put out...we do have data gonig back years of kids getting electrocuted etc in accidents but most of all we have a pretty good idea of how the body reacts to electricity. this isnt exactly breaking technology....its high volts low amps for 5 seconds. kid or adult we have a pretty good idea what is going to happen

it takes .6mA or so to stop a heart and that is amps across the heart. water is a resistor so we have a pretty good notion that the amount of amperage delivered by a taser simply cannot deliver .6mA across the heart no matter how hard you try.

yes, if she had an arythmia it could have gone badly but thats pretty rare.

so YOU as a trained fighter would likely have been able to restrain her without damaging her. I probably could have as well. (never been in a ring but im not exactly untrained)

but, the officer tried, failed, and did what she felt she had to. you think it was excessive. i think it was a good alternative to mace or the baton or god forbid a firearm.

guess we'll just have to agree to disagree

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy
Somewhat relevant, but interesting info on tasers to add to the discussion from Wiki:

TASER International has admitted in a training bulletin that repeated blasts of a taser can "impair breathing and respiration". Also, on Taser's website[2] it is stated that, for a subject in a state known as "excited delirium" (a controversial term in itself), repeated or prolonged stuns with the Taser can contribute to "significant and potentially fatal health risks".

bolding mine

repeated. yeah, shock someone then before they have a chance to recover much hit them again.

another of your quoted bits talks about using them as punishment. now THAT not even i would advocate. much as i wouldnt want my kids teachers spanking them for being unruley.

but to incapacitate a violent child who's already demonstrated that she is willing and able to do harm to an officer? yeah, i would rather see the child tasered than maced, struck with a baton or shot.

and maybe ive not been clear, i dont say this should have been the FIRST thing she tried..and it wasnt. she tried to restrain the child physically and failed and recieved an injury. so rather than use more aggressive hand to hand techniques she shocked the child and i see that as being less harmful than potentially causing the child longterm harm.

Originally posted by Finn1916


Ok let me get this strait, you want the parents called to deal with it? What, while she continues throwing things and beating people? Her mom has already shown a great job in raising her little hell raiser, you think she is gonna punish the kid? We need to go back to being able to spanking our kids. Worked for me, worked for my brothers and sister. Then maybe little brats like this would learn a thing or two about respecting your elders and authority instead of flipping out because they are questioned by a teacher.

[edit on 29-3-2008 by Finn1916]

No dont get me wrong I agree 100% that we should go back to the time when spanking was the preferred form of discipline. However there is absolutely no call whatsoever to tazer a child and then charge her with felony charges a drag her off to a juvenile detention center that my friend is absolute lunacy!
Second the police officer should have restrained her until a parent arrived after which punishment could be discussed with School Administrators the Teachers Involved and the parents of the child.
Police officers are trained to deal with threats of a much higher caliber than an 11 year old girl I don't care how much the child weighs. If this police officer had to resort to a tazer to restrain the child the police officer clearly has no qualifications to be protecting a school or be a police officer at all.

[edit on 29-3-2008 by Tguntony]

reply to post by Tguntony


Except, again, this was NOT a police officer. This was a law enforcement officer. Totally different. LEOs don't get the training police officers get in subduing suspects, and unarmed combat. A lot of them barely even manage to qualify for their firearms training.

reply to post by Zaphod58

Makes absolutely if the "Law Enforcement Officer" cannot subdue a child without resorting to a tazer the "Law Enforcement Officer"should not put ina position where he or she might have to.


Oh yeah and if they cannot qualify with a firearm why in the world would we expect them to be able to properly handle a tazer or any kind of weapon.

[edit on 29-3-2008 by Tguntony]

Originally posted by Tguntony
No dont get me wrong I agree 100% that we should go back to the time when spanking was the preferred form of discipline. However there is absolutely no call whatsoever to tazer a child and then charge her with felony charges a drag her off to a juvenile detention center that my friend is absolute lunacy!
Second the police officer should have restrained her until a parent arrived after which punishment could be discussed with School Administrators the Teachers Involved and the parents of the child.
Police officers are trained to deal with threats of a much higher caliber than an 11 year old girl I don't care how much the child weighs. If this police officer had to resort to a tazer to restrain the child the police officer clearly has no qualifications to be protecting a school or be a police officer at all.

ok, I might be able to agree with your statement of maybe she shuold not have been tsed, but not charged with assault on an offier and her teachers? yes, she needs to learn for once in her life that her actions do have consequenes.

The officer tried restraining her, and got punched in the nose for it, adrenaline kicked inm, and she did as the laws that have been posted here say that she should have. We are looking at the wrong angle here, if you want something done ya gotta change florida law not charge the cop.

I hate to sound like an ass, but I think the weight limit for cops should be 200 minimum, and in good shape at that, and trained in at least one type of martial arts. no, I don't think they need to be masters, but yes, teach them to safely restrain child that is their equal if not better size wise. Granted, a taser is not the worse thing that happens to you. I have spared with a few cop friends of mine in the gym, and I would rather they tase me than fight me in a situation where they would arrest me and I would resist.

Ona final note, I'm glad I find somneone that agrees we should still be able to spank our kids, I plan on spanking mine when I have them and before they beome little hellions like this one is.

[edit on 29-3-2008 by Finn1916]

reply to post by Tguntony


Because they DO qualify with their handguns. They just don't qualify as marksmen, or expert, or any of the higher qualifications. The minimums are minimums for a reason, and they beat those minimums, just that if there was a gun battle there would be a lot more ammo used.