Guns, what good are they....?

reply to post by thisguyrighthere



So are you saying the only reason to have guns is because of criminals such as thug gangs…..that’s it….? So to defend your homes is the only reason why you’d benefit from guns….I have to tell you…..that’s not much of a reason, you’ve got just one reason….to defend yourselves……I mean jeez….what about every other town that doesn’t need guns…..perfectly safe towns and cities that have barely any crime….they have no need for guns……

You take for example the suburb I live in…. fairly wealthy……everyone’s pretty content with their lives I guess, no shootings, rape, murder etc….you introduce guns into my neighborhood……..people who aren’t so well off…..will break into someone’s house more confidently then they would if all they had was a knife…..yeah I guess people would still break into people’s houses……but having a gun, gives them a more confidant approach to doing such a thing…

Originally posted by andre18
reply to post by thisguyrighthere

 

So are you saying the only reason to have guns is because of criminals such as thug gangs…..that’s it….? So to defend your homes is the only reason why you’d benefit from guns….I have to tell you…..that’s not much of a reason,

Yeah, what was I thinking? Self preservation? What good is that. Why don't I just become a richy rich and move into some gated community and keep all the poor people at bay?

I'm beginning to think you're just some stupid kid who wants to brag to the world that you're a spoiled rich brat vomiting fanciful and self-righteous albeit naive and ignorant views on life.

That 85 year old woman didn't need to save her life. She could have just been rich like you and lived in a gated community. That cripple guy didn;t need to save himself. He just needed to be rich and stuffed into some bubble.

You're the same clown who in another thread tried to tell me that if we just gave the addicts and criminals free money they'd stop being addicts and criminals aren't you? It was either you or another spoiled rich brat in some gated community in Australia.

I sincerely hope you are very successful at keeping reality on the other side of that gate. I wouldn't want you to get hurt or anything.

I guess it’s just a difference of opinion when it comes to the perception of the UN…..yeah….they probably have done some raping and such……not that I support that….no…..but, you seriously can’t expect some small handfuls to account for the entire UN…military…..

These people come from all different sort of countries….you can’t label them all as rapists…..lol…..but that’s not the case anyway….I don’t condone the military either…….I don’t like to think they only way to acquire peace ….is through peacekeepers who poses guns….you don’t achieve peace through violence…..I hate and despise the military of every country….

Solve a problem by sending thousands of troops to another country in which die fighting for a freedom they already have…..lol

Sorry I forgot to add…………I grew up through most of my life in a pretty crappy house full of crime and dodgy people stealing stuff from cars etc…….It’s been in the last 2-3 years I’ve lived in a well off area….anyone from Melbourne who’s been to ST KILDA knows what I’m talking about…..like….Balaclava station type of areas…..completely dodge…..

what I’m, trying to say mostly in this thread….is crime would be so much more if youths and young adults had the opportunity to go around with guns instead of pocket knives……here’s something which should at least make some sense to you….. what's wrong with banning automatic weapons? Say you kept hand guns…..why can’t you ban every other type…..or do you want to have a debate on how machine guns save more lives then handguns do…..



[edit on 30-1-2008 by andre18]

Andre 18,

Grow up...Andre...Grow UP. Not all of us live and work in safe secure surroundings. WE are of sufficient maturity that we know security is based on us first. NOt the body politic. Not the constabulary. Not good intentions and most certainly not the United Nations. Good grief. Where from did that UN rubbish come. The UN cannot maturely handle the levels of problems they have on their own plate. People have died by the thousands while the UN has debated and debated...and debated. I hold little to no confidence that they will be able to handle any problems in this country but only come here with thier hands out for freebees. The stories of the excesses of UN diplomats in New York City can be found on the web. This is a world wide Governing Body. They make a mockery of New York City and this country.

There is a very curious abscence of principle in yours and the posts of others on this topic line. It is always missing. The sad truth about it is that many of the pro gun people miss this principle too.

I am a nuclear fueler by trade. I know explicitly and instinctively what dangers/risks I take for my moneys/propertys earned. Idealists like you never bring up this point in your debates...you dont dare. When someone takes my propertys from my possession and control they force me to take risks twice or more to re earn the propertys. Often insurance does not cover the whole expense. People under these circumstances must risk again and again and again. Where is the morality in this..to be condemmed to possible death and injury two or more times to put ointment on your sentiments or the sentiments of the UN or politicians??This does not make good nonsense.

I speak not only of my profession but folks like Farmers. The average person in this country has no concept of how dangerous Farming is as a profession. Firemen, Policemen, Construction workers. etc etc etc. Even nursing is a hazardous occupation. Having dated two nurses I know that they were often around infected people for days before they were finally and properly diagnossed. You often dont know as to what you are exposed.

My point in all of this is that you should not show such obvious ignorance in your debate position based on misplaced emotions and ideals. In doing so you overlook the serious risks/dangers that ordinary people take in earning thier propertys/moneys earned. There is something morally bankrupt about a person or individual who does such a thing.
What astonishes me is that many of the pro gun people seem not to get this point or cannot post on it.

We have in this country the concept of "Private Property" Private ownereship of property. Implicit in this is the ability to protect said property. This privateness of property includes our labor and our moneys earned in labor. Ample court cases are in existance to support this concept of private ownereship of property.

Any persons ..no matter how well intended.. who attempt to remove the private ownereship of property or the ability to protect and defend said property is promoting the "public" ownership of property. This includes also our very persons. For by these misplaced ideals and emotions you would make us "subjects" of government ..not the soverigns.
For the very charter of this country is based on the ability to own private property. This is core to being an American and can easily be found in the opinions of the courts and the writings of the Founders. Ownership of private property. Not public property regulated by the soverign...for we are the Soverigns. Not subjects. This very important core principle seems to have escaped you in my previous post. Most other nations who claim democracy have the government of the Soverign regulating and controlling the people as subjects. We are not subjects here. We are not a feudal nation following the rule of the Kings or Soverigns.
This principle of the Kings is an anathema to us after Olde King George.

There are Americans on this forum who still know these principles. We have not been dumbed down so far that we think with our emotions first but from a view of these principles and these principles purchased with some of the Finest American Blood. WE have no wish to dishonor the sacrafices of not only the Founders ..but also our Fathers, Mothers, Grandfathers and kin who came before us....who's names and spirit we still bear.

THe United Nations is a counterfit vessel to protect the Honour of this counry and my predecsssors. This is known informations not by our prejudices but the very track record in failures of this counterfit orgainzation. All we have to do is look at thier dismal record to know we had better take care of our buisness for ourselves.

Make no mistake Andre...we are Americans ...Yanks...and damned proud of it. We make no claim to perfection.

I am an American and from Olde Virginia.

Do not attempt to preach such counterfit doctrine and beliefs before us while failing to take into account the risks ordinary peoples here in America take to earn thier livings and property.
If you feel it necessary to continue on your tack please learn these principles and why they are in the American spirit of those of us who have not been dumbed down by public education schooling and a television education.
Learn why we are Americans and not intrested in what the rest of the world thinks or expects.

One more thing. I also sport shoot. Target shooting is my hobby as is reloading. My firearms are used for more than just protecting my home and propertys earned at great risk. Once again you leave out much in your posts in assumption and by this telling me that you are very provincial in your thinking and emotional levels.
People who take great risks for thier livings and moneys, knowing that they must go back the next day and do it all over again, are people of dicipline. They are not wildlife. They know that they cannot live for thier emotions or instant gratification on the job or they will hurt themselves or others. They are under dicipline...not under emotions or wildlife principles. This is another reason why thievery is an anathma to them. Including Government thievery of thier private property..not matter how good the intentions.
My firearms are a dicipline to me as well as a means of sport and protection.

Also there is something very immoral and questionable about a government which would trust me to handle nuclear fuel rods and serve at risk in the military, but not trust me to own or handle a firearm. One need not get publically educated to have the ability in connecting these dots into the crooked line that it is.

Do not attempt to sell us short for your view of how the world ought to be.
Lots of folks like you on ATS/BTS. They all have the same fingerprint...they dismiss the risks taken by ordinary peoples in earning thier livings and propertys....all of them. Exactly the fingerprint of the United Nations.

Thanks,
Orangetom

[edit on 30-1-2008 by orangetom1999]

[edit on 30-1-2008 by orangetom1999]

reply to post by andre18


Sorry Andre, but you haven't a clue... not even the slightest inkling of a clue. I would quit while sufficiently behind. You are not likely to gain ground on this Quixotic attempt to "Educate" the world on the "Evils" of gun ownership. Perhaps someday, if you are lucky enough and grow up to be an adult you will better understand the nature of the world that we live in. At that point some of your blind idealism will have faded and reality will have taken hold in your life. Until then you will never understand the innate behavior of survivalism and those of your loved ones. Please, just quit now or you risk exposing the extreme breadth and depth of your naivete.

Originally posted by kozmo
reply to post by andre18

 

Sorry Andre, but you haven't a clue... not even the slightest inkling of a clue. I would quit while sufficiently behind. You are not likely to gain ground on this Quixotic attempt to "Educate" the world on the "Evils" of gun ownership.

And gun ownership is not evil. (You know this, kozmo, but I'm saying it anyway for third parties.) Some people are evil. Cruel, cowardly, hateful, rapacious, parasitic. The good people need to have some sort of defense against the evil.

Mod Edit: No personal attacks please.


[edit on 30-1-2008 by MemoryShock]

1. Because it makes you feel "powerful." (Not the reason for me.)
2. Protection. I'd rather have a gun and not need it, than need one and not have it. Especially in areas with a higher crime rate than others.
(The reason for me.)
3. Easier to hunt with than a bow and arrow. (Laziness.)
4. Sense of security. This is related to the first two, but I thought it deserved it's own line as that it's not exactly the same. EX: A rape victim buys a gun, a store owner keeps one behind the register, etc.
(False sense of security.)

And now, a quote from someone that agrees with your point of view:

"If I were God, there'd be no guns, just hand-to-hand combat.
Only the strong survive, like cavemen, I like that."
- Violent J - ICP 07'

Something I'm sure many posters in this thread have noticed, the OP wants to understand why we need or want guns, the answers to both of which are opinionated fact the fact portion is based around our Constitution., you cant argue with opinion and the OP knows this, the OP's goal isn't to understand anything, only to get our opinions and do his best to take these opinions and inject his own opinions... there is no understanding, there are numerous opinions from the pro gun side, all of which are never "good" enough in the opinion of the OP, the only thing that matters in this thread is that it contains the postings of FREE men, not slaves, not obedient dogs, but FREE men, we FREE men understand that in a FREE society our only limitation is violating the rights of another FREE man, as FREE men we understand that violating the rights of another FREE man means we loose our freedoms...

something I've yet to understand, why do non Americans seem so interested and resentful of our RTKBA when it has ZERO effect on them at all, could it be a slight bit of jealousy that our countries founding principles revolve around the risk and trust of freedom? and they possibly trying to bring us emotionally down there there level of slavery so they don't feel alone, and curled up in a dark corner, knowing they've been raped by the long # of government oppression....

[edit on 30-1-2008 by C0le]

Originally posted by andre18


Because there'll always be criminals, but at least it would be beneficial enough for the public, if criminals had less access to such deadly weapons.....

Guns prevent more crimes than they are used in. They are in fact beneficial. Stop believing everything you hear or read thats put out by pacifist candyasses.

A weapons is a weapon.......it's like saying there's nothing wrong with nuclear weapons as long as no one uses them.......the weapon itself is still dangerous....and in a society were a world piece can hopefully one day be accomplished........weapons such as these are no way, the right way to go about it....

There is nothing wrong with nuclear weapons. The only way to achieve and maintain peace is to have the capability to damage your enemies so greatly, they would never think of attacking you. Ever heard of mutually assuered destruction? Theres a reason it worked.

Originally posted by andre18


These people come from all different sort of countries….you can’t label them all as rapists…..lol…..but that’s not the case anyway….I don’t condone the military either…….I don’t like to think they only way to acquire peace ….is through peacekeepers who poses guns….you don’t achieve peace through violence…..I hate and despise the military of every country….

Yet you dont seem to mind benefitting from the protections they give you. Very hypocritical kid. Grow up a little bit.

Originally posted by andre18
reply to post by thisguyrighthere

 

So are you saying the only reason to have guns is because of criminals such as thug gangs…..that’s it….? So to defend your homes is the only reason why you’d benefit from guns….I have to tell you…..that’s not much of a reason, you’ve got just one reason….to defend yourselves……I mean jeez….what about every other town that doesn’t need guns…..perfectly safe towns and cities that have barely any crime….they have no need for guns……


You take for example the suburb I live in…. fairly wealthy……everyone’s pretty content with their lives I guess, no shootings, rape, murder etc….you introduce guns into my neighborhood……..people who aren’t so well off…..will break into someone’s house more confidently then they would if all they had was a knife…..yeah I guess people would still break into people’s houses……but having a gun, gives them a more confidant approach to doing such a thing…

If I was a burglar, I would so rob your whole town. They have no guns to defend their property.

I can't believe this thread still keeps going! I mean, hello. Kitchen knives are dangerous weapons and it's plain obvious that they have, are, and will be used for the purpose of killing human beings. I don't see any rallies aimed at banning kitchen knives.

Some people think that guns are appropriate for them to possess, and some don't. And let's leave it at that. I am in the former category. If you don't like guns, don't buy them, period. Lawful citizens aren't gonna attack you anyway, and thugs are, no matter what. Half of the criminal business that makes thugs in Richmond, VA, rich, is based on the fact that guns are illegal effectively, in the Northern States -- and they run them.

reply to post by slackerwire


So are you saying that a banning of guns in the middle east where children and adults walk around with AKA’s in the street like it’s normal is a bad idea….?

And anyway.....something I just found....
americanendeavor.blogspot.com...

If you really think guns actually save lives…..I guess you’re forgetting the school type shooting and the type of massacres that happen…
en.wikipedia.org...(Australia)


[edit on 30-1-2008 by andre18]

I used to think that I never wanted a gun because I couldn't see myself killing another person. Then we had my son, and as anyone who has children can attest, you can and do imagine the worst things that can happen. I decided to get a gun to protect my family - even though it's more likely just peace of mind. I'd never think that I could kill someone even in self defense but believe me - once you have a child you'll do ANYTHING to protect them. That there is life - don't threaten mine and there is no threat to yours.
The great equalizer.

[edit on 30-1-2008 by xEphon]

orangetom1999

ok so basically you’re talking about how in America you have the privilege to own private property…..right….? I’m not sure I get this…….I mean, everyone has private property….anyone can just buy a house where legally no one else is allowed to enter because you own it…..something like that……..you own it …it’s yours etc…

I’m having a hard time understanding what this means…..call me ignorant if you want… and in that case you might as well educate me on this kind of stuff because when you say something like “When someone takes my property’s from my possession and control they force me to take risks twice or more to re earn the property’s” I draw a blank………

“This does not make good nonsense.” not really, are you talking about when someone breaks in and enters your home, your proverty….?

“In doing so you overlook the serious risks/dangers that ordinary people take in earning their property’s/moneys earned.” So….do you mean people need guns because of the dangers they take in what they do for jobs for what they do when they work……defending their home helps them make money….is that it….?

“the ability to protect said property.” yeah I guess we have the same thing here, America is no different as you believe it to be……say farmers need to protect their property, their sheep from dingo’s, wild dogs’ etc…. they have fences and probably guns as well here in Australia…firstly that’s in remote areas not in large city environments…..secondly, I’d be willing to put down this part of the argument on gun ownership, if only people in such remote areas needed them so badly, I suppose I can see the need for people to need guns for such a purpose…….but when you’re talking about guns in cities…..that’s two completely different seniors……


[edit on 30-1-2008 by andre18]

Originally posted by andre18
[If you really think guns actually save lives…..I guess you’re forgetting the school type shooting and the type of massacres that happen…
en.wikipedia.org...(Australia)

But think of what would have happened if one properly trained and armed person was there? Maybe not as many people would have been killed?

Ok……think about it like this…….you take away the guns…..that guy wouldn’t be able to do the massacre in the first place…..someone walls into your place with a gun and you’re gun less…….so you’re screwed…..you take away the guns…..you don’t have people walking into your house in the first place……

If one country has nukes then another country feels the need to have nukes to defend themselves against that country. Then the threat goes further more countries build nukes to defend themselves from the threat of the other countries having nukes......

One person has a gun, another person wonts a gun to defend themselves against that person. Then another person wants a gun to....etc etc....soon everyone has a gun to defend themselves from everyone else.

You take away the nuke or gun in the first place, no one needs to defend themselves against anyone.

"But what if someone attacks you at your home?"

If anyone robs anyone, it's because they're poor, they need money....think of all the money spent every single year on military from every single country, you take away the military, think of what the government could spend all those billions upon billions of dollars on for the public, instead on some BS secret weapon that could destroy the earth by pressing a button.

all the governments of the world need to do is give up the need for military.....

The army Air force navy etc, is meant for defending, but if there’s no other countries military, there’s no need to defend against another country.....so bloody simple.......it does not take a great mind to figure that out.....


[edit on 30-1-2008 by andre18]

What is with certain people that say things like (and I am only paraphrasing) "what is with you people in America" and then
blab on and on about your pathetic beliefs about guns? Why do
you feel it is your duty somehow to prescribe to everyone in
America what to to do or not to with weapons? Don't you understand
in the slightest, that this country was founded with the all mighty gun?
Don't you understand that it is our right to own and bear arms? What
part of our Constitution do you not quite understand or don't want to
understand? What part of "take away our weapons and the only ones that will have weapons is the worst of the criminals" that you just can't seem
to grasp? What a bunch of lifeless punks who throw up their hands and
say "I surrender" whenever the subject of guns come up. I say, I will
go to my nearest arms dealer tomorrow and buy a few more boxes of
.44 Magnum and .243 lead to arm myself against the thugs that want
to take over our neighborhoods after the Government throws in the
towel like the UK and Australia and others. Wimpy, wimpy, wimpy!!
Come on, jump on me and lambast what I have to say. I am sure you
will, with relentless zeal.

ZOOMER

reply to post by ZOOMER


“Why do you feel it is your duty somehow to prescribe to everyone in
America what to do or not to with weapons?”

I’m just expressing my opinion…….am I not allowed to do that…?

Thge fact that America was founded on such principles is a pretty bad argument….that was like how many hundred of years ago….we’re in the 2st century now….but I don’t know how far you want to go defending guns when they plainly kill more people then they save……eg…..sending troops to other countries, killing hundred of thousands of people, Palestine and Israel at war with each other…. American troops in Iraq, killing hundreds of thousands of innocent people labeled as causalities of war…

[edit on 30-1-2008 by andre18]