If Being Gay is alright in the eyes of God then.....

At this point we will consider some of the New Testament passages dealing with homosexuality. Three key New Testament passages concerning homosexuality are: Romans 1:26-27, 1 Corinthians 6:9, and 1 Timothy 1:10. Of the three, the most significant is Romans 1 because it deals with homosexuality within the larger cultural context.
Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
Here the Apostle Paul sets the Gentile world's guilt before a holy God and focuses on the arrogance and lust of the Hellenistic world. He says they have turned away from a true worship of God so that "God gave them over to shameful lusts." Rather than follow God's instruction in their lives, they "suppress the truth in unrighteousness" (Rom. 1:18) and follow passions that dishonor God.
Another New Testament passage dealing with homosexuality is 1 Corinthians 6:9-10. " Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God." Pro- homosexual commentators make use of the "abuse" argument and point out that Paul is only singling out homosexual offenders. In other words, they argue that the Apostle Paul is condemning homosexual abuse rather than responsible homosexual behavior. In essence, these commentators are suggesting that Paul is calling for temperance rather than abstinence. While this could be a reasonable interpretation for drinking wine (don't be a drunkard), it hardly applies to other sins listed in 1 Corinthians 6 or 1 Timothy 1. Is Paul calling for responsible adultery or responsible prostitution? Is there such a thing as moral theft and swindling? Obviously the argument breaks down. Scripture never condones sex outside of marriage (premarital sex, extramarital sex, homosexual sex). God created man and woman for the institution of marriage (Gen. 2:24). Homosexuality is a violation of the creation order, and God clearly condemns it as unnatural and specifically against His ordained order. As we have seen in the discussion thus far, there are passages in both the Old Testament and the New Testament which condemn homosexuality.

www.probe.org...

The more you quote the bible in this argument the more you put this whole issue on a religious ground and our constitution clearly says that there is a seperation of church and state.

Which means that the churches viewpoint should not be considered in the law.

When you take the religious aregument out of the equation then there is no argument against gay marriage. Is there ?

Chevy: look at the topics name.

Chazah: have you even read any other posts in this thread?
Those verses have been pasted how many times now...
The problem was that being gay is not something you can choose for/prevent/change.
It's a way of being.

When someone's born with 3 legs, are you going to tell them it's very wrong and unnatural that they have 3 legs, because God clearly wanted people to have 2 legs?
That's what you're doing right now.

I know some people that face these problems and questions, and I'm glad God looks further then our superfacial and primal conclusions and interpretations.

A lot of people that are gay, only see one solution; suicide.
They think they are "wrong" and they know they can't change what they are.
Do you think their solution is a good one? Or do you have alternatives?

If God created man with free will why is it so hard for Christians to accept the fact that people use it? If men and women want to be gay isn't that their right of free will? You don't have to agree with homosexuality but what are you doing to make the world better instead of disrespecting gays?

Are you feeding the hungry? Clothing the poor? Serving the crippled? Donating money to the fatherless children?

If you aren't doing these things but you still take the time to prove homosexuality is wrong according to the Bible then you're no better than them in any way shape or form.

Originally posted by Sinobyte
If God created man with free will why is it so hard for Christians to accept the fact that people use it? If men and women want to be gay isn't that their right of free will?

You don't even know what "being gay" is.
It has nothing to do with free will.
Pfft ignorance...

Originally posted by Jakko
You don't even know what "being gay" is.
It has nothing to do with free will.
Pfft ignorance...

Actually, your statement is ignorant in the assumption that all homosexuals are born gay, if that is what you're getting at. Besides the fact that there's no biological proof to back that up, a large number of gay men and women will tell you upfront it was a sexual preferance based on experience. Deciding to "be gay" is a free will issue. Those that use the "we were born gay" do so because they feel it's more respectable for them to appear "created" that way instead of somebody who made the choice to become what most view as "sinful". I have quite a few gay friends and none of them use that weak "we were born gay" excuse. Stop being self-righteous. If you have something intelligent to add then by all means do so.


[Edited on 5/31/2004 by Sinobyte]

I think you we are overlooking one important detail in this debate - Jesus never said anything against or for homosexuality. If Jesus' word is the supreme law of Christianity, and he never said anything against this sexual preference, then people shouldn't attack it with so much hatred. Furthermore, the bible really can't be taken literally, and the bible we read is different from the true bible that was written in Greek.

your statement is ignorant in the assumption that all homosexuals are born gay

You might want to read my 3 lines again, I did not say homosexuals are born gay. I said being gay has nothing to do with free will.

Deciding to "be gay" is a free will issue.

You are 100 % wrong.
I have always been amazed by people that think being gay is a choice or a lifestyle. I was even wondering wether they exist on ATS, but it seems like we found one today...

Those that use the "we were born gay" do so because they feel it's more respectable for them to appear "created" that way instead of somebody who made the choice to become what most view as "sinful".

With people like you around, no wonder gay people commit suicide.
Kids not understanding why they are different than the rest is bad enough, people telling them it's their own fault and choice when it's neither is just horrible.

I have quite a few gay friends and none of them use that weak "we were born gay" excuse. Stop being self-righteous. If you have something intelligent to add then by all means do so.

I am not gay, but a very close relative and some friends are, and let me give you some "intelligent" info that will hopefully decrease your ignorance somewhat.
How people become gay is something we don't know yet.
For sure is that it's either:

1. The way you're raised. (a boy not having a father in his youth for example)
2. A genetic disorder. (something that's passed on from parents to siblings, it can skip generations)

Recent science developments showed that after investigating the brains of animals, gay animals showed clear differences in the size of certain hormone-related brain-parts compared to straight animals.
This suggests that options #2 is the case, and that all gay people are indeed born gay. This is not solid proof, because it could be that these things work differently for animals than for humans.

Now usually when someone finds out he's gay, he wants nothing more then to become straight just like the rest.
It's such an ignorant thing to think that someone would willingly choose to be in a group that's seen as sinfull, dirty, etc.
It was never a choice, and it will never be a choice.
Not for people who are attracted to children, not for people who are attracted to animals and not for people who are attracted to their own gender.

I hope your "friends" will reveal the truth to you as well, because they did not choose to be gay either.

Originally posted by Jakko
A genetic disorder

Please provide links that prove being gay is a GENETIC DISORDER. I'd be interested in seeing that proof.

As for your statement that people are BORN gay as I said in my statement above, you are incorrect. To state that all gay men and women didn't CHOOSE to be gay is to dismiss homosexuality as nothing more than a mutation. My gay friends are extremely open (to many of my other friends discomfort) about why they chose to be gay...and many had great parents. They willingnly made a choice to BE GAY and for you to assume they cannot choose indicates your ignorance in assuming without proof that homosexuality is a genetic flaw. Which is extremely ignorant. Many of my gay friends admitted to me that they used the old "I was born gay" excuse to justify their choice because telling people they chose to be gay made them feel emasculated. If homosexuality was a genetic flaw that the WHOLE gay community was born with does that mean bi-sexuality is as well? Beastiality? Pedohilia?

You're not saying anything. You keep using the word ignorance as if you're immune from it. Homosexuality can be a choice. Period. I don't limit it to the possibility of being something a child is born with but anybody who claims it cannot be a choice isn't all that educated on the subject.


[Edited on 5/31/2004 by Sinobyte]

You are truly and entirely wrong.
You can not choose to what gender you feel attracted.
Just like you can not change this to become gay, gay people can not change this to become straight.

Your opinion is such a simplistic and retarded way of looking at gay people. I'm glad few share your opinion.
May I ask who ever taught you this nonsense?

Originally posted by Sinobyte
Please provide links that prove being gay is a GENETIC DISORDER. I'd be interested in seeing that proof.

www.usatoday.com...
There ya go.
Oh and one other thing, in most discussions I don't act like this, because you can almost never be 100% sure you're right.
THis time I am 100% sure I am right, therefore I can guarantee you that any comments regarding my intelligence or ignorance, will make you look like a bigger fruitcake.
Try not to dig yourself in too deep.

Originally posted by Jakko
You are truly and entirely wrong.
You can not choose to what gender you feel attracted.
Just like you can not change this to become gay, gay people can not change this to become straight.

Your opinion is such a simplistic and retarded way of looking at gay people. I'm glad few share your opinion.
May I ask who ever taught you this nonsense?

You cannot choose what gender you're attracted to? Yes, you can. Which "Gay Rule" or "genetic disorder" states gay men and women cannot CHOOSE to be that way?

I see gay people as no different from straight people and as I stated before...I don't discount the possibility of homosexuality being a genetics issue, but it is also a choice and for you to claim it isn't shows how little you understand about being a homosexual...unless of course, you are homosexual. You sure seem to be fighting for some cause...would that be it?

I know well over a dozen gay men and women and none of them fall back on the whole "I was born this way it's a genetic flaw". All of them had told me that they chose to be homosexual for various reasons. None had bad parents and none believed they were born that way. Several of them have children in their 30's. I noticed you didn't answer my question on bi-sexuality, beastiality or pedophilia...why is that?

I'd also like to point out that your posts tend to be nothing but flaming and if you continue to flame I will contact the mods to indicate you can't find anything worthwhile to add to posts but name calling.

Originally posted by Sinobyte
I don't discount the possibility of homosexuality being a genetics issue, but it is also a choice and for you to claim it isn't shows how little you understand about being a homosexual

I seem to understand quite a lot more than you do, and I'm not even gay myself...
How about you read that link, and try to really understand the words that you see, especially the last part.
Let's hope you're man enough to admit defeat.

BTW, your link is a theory. You'll notice the use of words such as "suggests" & "may be". This study was also conducted on sheep and post mortem human subjects.

Gay and Lesbian Organisations may claim that anybody who says it's a choice is wrong but I never stated it's ONLY A CHOICE and that every single gay man and women made a choice. I said, men and women CAN choose to be gay. It's far from impossible and anybody who claims it is needs to do a bit more research or at least be honest with themselves. Once again...bestiality, bi-sexuality and pedophilia...what about those? I noticed you keep skirting that question.


[Edited on 5/31/2004 by Sinobyte]

Originally posted by Sinobyte
BTW, your link is a theory.

My link is not a theory, it's about an experiment with sheep that was done after experiments with humans. (read the link again if you still don't get it)

I never stated it's ONLY A CHOICE and that every single gay man and women made a choice. I said, men and women CAN choose to be gay.

And I say, man women can not choose to what gender they are attracted.
You are wrong.

Oh and don't crawl back or switch subjects.

[Edited on 31-5-2004 by Jakko]

Originally posted by Jakko
My link is not a theory, it's about an experiment with sheep that was done after experiments with humans. (read the link again if you still don't get it)


And I say, man women can not choose to what gender they are attracted.
You are wrong.

Oh and don't crawl back or switch subjects.

[Edited on 31-5-2004 by Jakko]

It is a theory. Using the words "suggests" and "may be" do not indicate solid scientific fact, do they? They're offering up a THEORY that homosexuality is some kind of genetic flaw due to experiments they conducted on sheep and dead human subjects. Being born gay as not been proven yet and though I don't discount it...it's not fact yet. I'm sure further study may change that but as I said before...I believe it's a great possibility that much of the gay and lesbian community were born gay, but there's also those that stand up for their ability to choose. Men and women CAN choose who to have sex with. You're incorrect. They can choose their orientations and live happy homosexual lives after that choice. To say it's impossible proves YOUR ignorance.

Once again if you claim you're 100% correct that gay men and women are BORN gay...then feel free to explain bi-sexuality, beastiality and pedophilia...I noticed you keep ignoring that question. Why?

Originally posted by Sinobyte
Men and women CAN choose who to have sex with. You're incorrect. They can choose their orientations and live happy homosexual lives after that choice. To say it's impossible proves YOUR ignorance.

Chosing who you have sex with is something else then chosing who you're attracted to.
"being gay" means being attracted to your own gender.
"being gay" does not mean having sex with your own gender.
It is impossible to change who you're attracted to.

As for my link, it is not about a theory it's about practical results coming from practical tests.
Scientist always use such words when they are forming conclusions based on tests.
As I said, do not crawl back or change subject, you are wrong and I think you allready realize it.

[Edited on 31-5-2004 by Jakko]

Originally posted by Jakko
Chosing who you have sex with is something else then chosing who you're attracted to.
"being gay" means being attracted to your own gender.
"being gay" does not mean having sex with your own gender.
It is impossible to change who you're attracted to.

As for my link, it is not about a theory it's about practical results coming from practical tests.
Scientist always use such words when they are forming conclusions based on tests.
As I said, do not crawl back or change subject, you are wrong and I think you allready realize it.

Scientists use words such as "suggests" and "may be" when they do not have conclusive evidence to back up their what? Their what?

Oh yeah...theory.

If choosing who you are attracted to is impossible because it's something you're born with and not a choice then bi-sexual men and women, men and women who practice beastiality and men and women who practice pedophilia are simply born that way?

If you cannot answer this then you cannot adequately answer homosexuality by using that theory currently being researched.

[Edited on 5/31/2004 by Sinobyte]

1. When my post is right above your post there is no reason to quote, we're not retarded.

2. Being attracted to the different gender/your own gender/all genders/children/animals is indeed something you're born with.
You can not change, choose or prevent who you're attracted to.
This also explains why there are straight, gay, and bisexual people.
Bisexual people can truly choose who they want to have a relationship with, because their nature allows them to be attracted to both genders.
Straight and homosexual people are only attracted to one gender.
They can of course deny their own nature and choose to have sex with whoever they want, the problem is just that they will not be aroused when they want to have sex with a gender they're not attracted to.

I honestly wish you were right and it would all come down to choices and will. It would solve all problems with pedophiles, and homosexual people would no longer kill themselves.

Please post evidence that shows that people who practice bi-sexuality, beastiality and pedophilia are born like that. I'd also like to read your data on how straight men and women cannot be attracted to their own sex.
Lemme know when you're ready to post that proof. Until then, stick to the topic. Pz.