If Being Gay is alright in the eyes of God then.....

Have you walked in my shoes? No? I didn't think so. Because if you had, you wouldn't be saying the things you are.

I have, however, walked in your shoes. They are exceedingly uncomfortable and unnatural shoes. I left them behind years ago. And I have been a much better person - dare I say a much better Christian - ever since.

"...We have evidence to indicate that certain people may be born with a predisposition towards alcoholism or with a "shorter fuse" making them more likely to become violent when angry..."

I am sick of people comparing being gay to alcoholism, or personality disorders. Being gay does not make me any less of a human being than being left-handed does. In a double-blind study, psychologists were surprised to find that gay people are every single bit as emotionally healthy as their heterosexual counterparts.

"We all have an inborn tendency to sin, according to Christian thought..."

As if there is but one 'Christian thought.' I daresay Emmet Fox and Matthew Fox would have very different ideas of what 'Christian thought' is. If there were just one 'Christian thought' then why has the 'Christian' church done nothing but argue and splinter for the past 2,000 years? Sheesh.

"A heterosexual male has a biological drive to desire sexual relations with more than one woman; however, Christianity says that he must control that desire and remain faithful to his wife."

As you must know, there are plentiful examples of men in the Bible who have had sex with more than one woman. But since they are in the Bible, it's okay for them to do so. Sorry, I forgot.

"Similarly, it is possible that a homosexual male would have a biological drive to desire sexual relations with men, but if such behavior is sinful then he would have to control himself."

I just love the whole 'no, you can be gay, just don't act on it' thing. Let me get this straight. God made me gay. (Don't even try to argue me on this) But God wants me to be celibate for all my life. Because, even though He made me gay, he wants me to be lonely. That's crazy.

What I don't get is: why does this matter so honkin' much to contemporary American 'Christians?' How in the world does my orientation negate their faith? Can they really be so steeped in their own hubris as to believe that their idea of faith is the only way anyone can and should believe? That smacks of the worst sin of all: pride.

If American 'Christians' would stop focusing on gays and lesbians and focus on things they would be much better served by looking at what they can really make a difference in. Cuz guess what: we are part of the fabric of humanity. Always have been. All the pulpit thumping has not had one iota of effect on changing anyone's sexual orientation. What it HAS done is encouraged people to believe that God is condemning them to hell. It has made many 'Christian' churches places of torment and abuse. It has driven countless scared gay teenagers to suicide. I should know. I spent years in a fundamentalist 'Christian' church. I saw more hate and fear there than I care to ever see again.

What if James Dobson (that Focus on the Family dude) took all the money he poured into Safeco Field this past Saturday for his anti-gay marriage rally and, I don't know, donated it to a drought-ravaged African nation?

I like to think what Jesus would do if he were at this rally. Would he stand up there on the podium with Dobson and his allies and say, "All you homosexuals are twisted perverts and you're going to hell!" I doubt it. When I picture Jesus at the rally - 10,000 people shaking their fists at the sky pledging to stop homosexuals from basic freedoms - I picture him not in the stadium but down the block, in an alley, lifting a drunken man's head off the ground. I imagine him bathing this man's face with his own shirt. And I imagine Jesus saying, 'God loves you.'

But, hey, if you like the version of the corporate fear-monger Jesus, be my guest. Just don't try to make us believe that that is the real Jesus. Because your guess is as good as mine. Unless, of course, you were there.

Which reminds me of one of my favorite hymns:

Were you there when they crucified my Lord?
Were you there when they crucified my Lord?
You weren't?
Then shut up.
Because you don't know anything more about Him than I do.

Amen

Originally posted by Facefirst

Originally posted by BlackJackal
We all have an inborn tendency to sin, according to Christian thought. Ever since Adam and Eve, every human being is born with a sinful nature.

No disrespect to anyone's beliefs here, but that is one of my reasons for not agreeing with my Christian upbringing anymore.

I don't not believe in the concept of original sin.

Certain biological pre-dispositions aside, we are born with a clean slate.

It does not make sense to me for a person to be born a sinner automaticaly based on things that they had no control over.

It is all about using guilt as control even when you have nothing to feel ashamed of in this world, for how could you if you were just born.

Sometimes I question if leaving the fundamentalist church was the right thing to do. Thank God for George W. Bush. Because I look at him and I think,

"If he's a Christian, then I am a Nubian Princess"

Three books have really opened my eyes:
The Gospel According to Jesus by Stephen Mitchell
Stealing Jesus by Bruce Bawer
Living Buddha, Living Christ by Thich Nhat Thanh (I think that's how to spell his name)

And one book has given me great joy:
Only Begotten Daughter by James Morrow

Now it's time to go out and enjoy the rare Seattle sunshine...

xox
Fort

So what does God think about transsexuals, intersexed people, ect...


If you go to church and are supposed to be a leader of that faith then I feel you should do your best to represent your religion's teaching like no sex before marriage, no gambling, no being gay, ect...

My last post said:

"...If American 'Christians' would stop focusing on gays and lesbians and focus on things they would be much better served by looking at what they can really make a difference in."

What I meant to say was something like:

If American 'Christians' would stop focusing on gays and lesbians they could focus on things they could actually make a difference in.

My grammar ran away with me. So sorry.

And now, sunshine...

- Fort

Judge not least ye be judged! (or something)
Let those without sin cast the first stone.
Honor thy neighbor.

How quickly we all forget about these Christian ideas when it does not suit our own personal agendas.

Originally posted by Fortinbras
Have you walked in my shoes? No? I didn't think so. Because if you had, you wouldn't be saying the things you are.

To be quite frank, yes, I have walked in your shoes and I would not even for a second say that something like this was a choice if I did not know so first hand. Now, don't even start thinking that it was christianity or religion that caused me to change either because it wasn't, I simply choose not to act on my desires. Now you will say you are just denying what you really are but in actuallity I am being who I really am. Please Chew on that a while and really think about it without getting so angry.

As you must know, there are plentiful examples of men in the Bible who have had sex with more than one woman. But since they are in the Bible, it's okay for them to do so. Sorry, I forgot.

...the bible never said that it was okay for them to do so! You completely missed the point of these instances! Very commonly throughout the bible is a 'teaching by example' technique...these were examples of wrongdoings, and if you follow up on the stories of these people, bad things usually happen to them as an effect of their sins!

Because, even though He made me gay, he wants me to be lonely. That's crazy.

That is crazy...which is exactly why he DIDN'T make you gay! If God gives us free will so that we can choose, or not choose, to serve him, and strive to live a sinless life for our entire existence, for him to create somebody fundamentally sinful would defeat that purpose! Listen to yourself, you are answering your own questions!

Originally posted by nathraq

why did he destroy Soddom and Gommorah?

And this story has what to do with being gay? Are you saying because it's in the bible, it makes it wrong?

Dude can you read , the guy is talking about homosexuality from a religious view point, try reading the title.

Are you saying those of us, who are non-christian, are subject to your judgements and punishments?

When the hell did he say that, bah man, come on.

Are you implying, even though I'm not gay, but I have absolutely no problem with same-sex marriages, that I too am to be punished because I believe it's ok for gays to get married?

Lol is this post addressed to you?... hold on , wait, um no it isn't, so how is he implying anything to you?

OMG, please use a better arguement for not supporting same sex marriage, or any other bytch you might have against anything. I would much rather hear how you personally feel on the subject, not how someone else has programmed you to feel.

Ah yes the same played out argument that all christians are programed dumy's who can't thank for themselves.

Think for yourself

I suggest you do the same and question things that you have been brought to believe by "others"

Originally posted by BlackJackal
To be quite frank, yes, I have walked in your shoes and I would not even for a second say that something like this was a choice if I did not know so first hand. Now, don't even start thinking that it was christianity or religion that caused me to change either because it wasn't, I simply choose not to act on my desires. Now you will say you are just denying what you really are but in actuallity I am being who I really am. Please Chew on that a while and really think about it without getting so angry.

Not to get too personal here, but are you attracted to women or are you strictly attracted to men, and live a celibate life now? I only ask because I am curious as to how you know that you were/are not bi-sexual.

"To be quite frank, yes, I have walked in your shoes and I would not even for a second say that something like this was a choice if I did not know so first hand. Now, don't even start thinking that it was christianity or religion that caused me to change either because it wasn't, I simply choose not to act on my desires. Now you will say you are just denying what you really are but in actuallity I am being who I really am. Please Chew on that a while and really think about it without getting so angry."

If not acting on your desires is important to you, then go for it. Far be it from me to tell you what to do. If you are being who you are, then great. Honestly, I mean it. But, my kind sir, just because it is the path you have chosen, it doesn't mean it is a path that everybody must choose. I have no problem with Christians being Christians in whatever form they want to believe in. Where I have the big fat honkin' problem is when they start telling me how I need to live MY life according to THEIR beliefs.

I know what your instant retort is: "It's not my belief, it's God's law." Well, there are several billion people on the planet. That means there are at least that many ways to interpret 'God's laws.'

Am I angry? Yes I am. At you, personally? Not really. I'm angry at the deliberate erosion of the separation of church and state. I'm angry at how our current president is pushing for an amendment to the constitution to make sure gay people don't trample on the holy state of matrimony. (As if heterosexuals have done anything but piss all over it anyway. I mean, really, if you want to protect the sanctity of marriage, then pass an amendment against Who Wants to Marry a Millionaire for crying out loud) I'm angry that religious intolerance justifies gay bashing. I'm angry that all kinds of horrible things happen in the name of 'Christianity' that is nothing more than greed and fear.

And you know what? It is a healthy, constructive anger. If it weren't for angry people doing constructive things, we would still belong to Britain.

my question earlier wasn't answered and i'd be interested to hear what the "god hates gay sex" people have to say about it. here it is again.
is it a sin or "gay sex" when good god loving christian married hetero couples engage in sodomy?

fortinbras, nicely done. i've read Eckhart too and loved him, he's my kinda christian. got turned on to him from reading Matt Fox, natch.

Because, even though He made me gay, he wants me to be lonely. That's crazy.

"That is crazy...which is exactly why he DIDN'T make you gay! If God gives us free will so that we can choose, or not choose, to serve him, and strive to live a sinless life for our entire existence, for him to create somebody fundamentally sinful would defeat that purpose! Listen to yourself, you are answering your own questions!"

What I find simply astonishing is your inability to consider that I am serving God by being who I am. Being gay is not fundamentally sinful. It is who I am. The more I accept myself for who I am, the closer I am with God. And there is no one who can separate me from the love of God.

I have met many 'christian' people in my life. I have met many gay people in my life. I have met many who are both. And, brother, I tell you the most spiritual, alive, fundamentally good people I know are those who have been through the wringer with a fundamentalist church (Catholic, Pentecostal, Mormon, what-have-you) and have come out the other side. These are people who know who they are, and who have fought with every ounce of their strength to know what it is that God wants for them.

God is so much bigger than you or me or any human idea we can try to force Him into. I find it the height of ridiculousness to imagine that God sits on his throne, white beard flowing, master of the universe, and looks down upon me and says, 'Ewwww! He's kissing a man! Gross me out! Send him to hell forever!'

I mean, come ON!

"i've read Eckhart too and loved him, he's my kinda christian. got turned on to him from reading Matt Fox, natch."

Ekhart said, "The eye through which I see God is the same eye through which God sees me." I love that quote. I highly recommend Steven Mitchell. Gospel According to Jesus. And his translation of the Psalms is incredible.

And I'm STILL a sucker for the Narnia books...

"I highly recommend Steven Mitchell. Gospel According to Jesus"

he also did a nice job translating the Tao te Ching

when the waters grow sweet, then you will find utter east, reepacheep.

yes, he certainly did. I like the quote: Give evil nothing to oppose and it will go away by itself.

Ah, Reepicheep. The Dawn Treader was my favorite for the longest time. Then The Silver Chair was. Now I find myself drawn to A Horse and His Boy.

Have you ever read E. Nesbitt? Her stories are simply wonderful.

going to turn in now...

You claim yourself a christian, so you must believe, in its entirety, the Bible...the Bible explicitly states that homosexuality is a sin! You don't serve God by being who you are, you strive to be like his son, Jesus Christ, our one true example of what a perfect man is!

Originally posted by Cenarius
You claim yourself a christian, so you must believe, in its entirety, the Bible...the Bible explicitly states that homosexuality is a sin! You don't serve God by being who you are, you strive to be like his son, Jesus Christ, our one true example of what a perfect man is!

Jesus also forgave and loved everyone, regardless of who they were. Even his enemies.

Originally posted by Cenarius
You claim yourself a christian, so you must believe, in its entirety, the Bible...the Bible explicitly states that homosexuality is a sin! You don't serve God by being who you are, you strive to be like his son, Jesus Christ, our one true example of what a perfect man is!

Please enlighten me and descibe Jesus in detail. His features. His personality. His beliefs. Since you seem to know him so well. Help me to understand what I have to do to be the perfect man.

Since, obviusly, you have the inside track on that I'd be honored if you taught me.

I'd like to learn how to hate someone on the basis of a book.

I'd like to learn how to condemn an innocent human being for loving someone on the basis of a book.

Please, let me know if I am missing anything.

So are you saying that you believe every single word in the Bible? And that you give each word, each passage equal weight? That you don't pick and choose which verses fit your view of life and which ones don't?

How many conversations do you remember verbatim from last year? How many conversations do you remember verbatim from 30 years ago? How many stories have you heard passed down through the years, from person to person, that relates to something you have never yourself witnessed? How accurate would these stories be? Would they stand up in court as evidence?

Let's say that a friend of mine's grandfather saw something 30 years ago. This friend's grandfather told his family the story. Someone in that family told the story to my friend's father, who, in turn, told the story to my friend. Who, in turn, told it to me. I, in turn, then wrote it down. The story I wrote gets translated into one language. Then it gets translated from that language into another language. And then another. And then some time passes. Let's say - just for the sake of arugument - 500 years pass. All the time people are reading this story I wrote down 2 languages ago based on something that happened not to me but someone 3 people removed from me. People continue to embellish this story and retranslate it.

Am I to believe that the version that comes out after 500 years, after being through the translation mill is concrete evidence that would stand up in court?

What if we expand that 500 years to close to 1700 years? Let's remember that the Bible wasn't codified until the Council of Nicea, and there was quite a lot of heated debate as to what goes into the 'final Bible' and what doesn't. Let's not forget that there were dozens of gospels that were left out. Let's not forget that there were dozens of political motives for keeping things in the Bible and other political motives for keeping other things out. Let's not forget that throught the years, since the Council of Nicea, there were hundreds of edits - both additions and subtractions - imposed on what we know today as 'the holy Bible.'

I can not possibly look at this book and say: this is the final, absolute word of God. There are some great things in the Bible. And there is some total crap in the Bible as well.

If the Bible is 'God's Word' then has God had nothing to say since the last word was written in the final verse of the final chapter of The Revelation? Does God not have the right to say, 'Things are different today than they were 2,000 years ago'? Because things are a teeny, weeny bit different today than they were 2,000 years ago.

I choose to believe that God is alive and well today, and that revelation from The Holy Spirit has not stopped. That I am just as worthy a vessel for God as any nun, televangelist or clown-wig-wearing-dude who holds up 'John 3:16" at football games.

If by 'Christian' you mean am I anti choice, anti human rights, anti gay? Then no, I am not that kind of Christian. If by Christian you mean am I all for compassion, respect, and trying to live as Jesus did? Then yes, I am that kind of Christian.