If Being Gay is alright in the eyes of God then.....

All right. To prevent myself from coming across as hypocritical I will adjust my stance.

In my experience. Nearly EVERY SINGLE PERSON of Christian faith I came into contact with, and there have been MANY, have been judgemental. Whether it is to Gays, goths, Jews, WHATEVER. They do not tolerate them

I never said the bible said to be judgemental, but they are so tied up in a 2000 year old piece of fiction that they can't get past it, causing them to judge everyone who is not like them. Maybe its psychological, who knows.

I'm not judging the person. Im judging the religion. I am entitled. I reserve that right. Whether you like it or not. I was almost forced to suicide in the name of this religion. Hearing every single day about gay people burning in hell and evil and all that # is not good for a kids psyche. I am lucky I finally realized that I can't help who I am, that I am a good person despite who I love. My family is so blinded by this religion that they nearly lost a son for it and never even knew it. So i reserve the right to say whatever I goddamn well please about it. And until you are faced with the same kind of blatant HATE don't tell me to stop bitching. When someone is eating away at you day after day and don't even see the kind of fear and pain they are causing? You try it. Try living with the fact that if half your family found out you were gay they would turn around and deny you ever existed. Erase you like a #ing pencil mark! My brother is going thorugh the same thing. Thankfully, he has people around him to help. I never did. It was just me dealing with the hateful words every day. I don't hate or dislike any Christian. They choose to live that way fine. That's them. And there are a lot of good people out there who do not judge and hate people. They, in my experience, are an exception to the rule.

It's the religion itself I don't like. It is a breeding ground of hate and terror. In My Opinion.

Hm..why can't we accept people who have homosexual desires? Why not? Why can't we? These are human beings just like you and me. Would you want to be hated and persecuted because of your lifestyle? No I didn't think so.

* How can you prove that being born gay is a bunch of crap? Support this please. Scientific evidence, etc.

* You say that we can accept alcoholics but not gays? WTF? Being gay is just a preference, it doesn't kill people, alter people's judgement, etc. wtf? I..just..don't..get..that...statement...

* I am A Devout Roman Catholic. I believe in the Bible. But I do NOT believe that GOD hates gays. No. This simply can't be. How can he hate his creations because of their sexual preferences? No. I will not accept that. If I am heterosexual (which I am), he would accept me and love me. If I was homosexual (which I am not) he would accept me and love me.

Now, you say you are just following the Bible. OK, so, God teaches that you will accept ALL people, of any race, preference, color, problems, etc. So, follow the Bible, why don't you?

-wD

Now, this deserved a new post to itself. OK, onto the point. Hello Garon. Almost commited suicide because of it, eh? So did I. But I still follow Christianity because of the BASIC teachings. Not the teachings that have been destorted or corrupted throughout history. The BASIC teachings. Here's some:

* Thou shall not kill.

* Thou shall not murder.

* Treat others the way you would like to be treated.

* Love everyone, and above all, love God.

Basic teachings of Christianity, now, what is so bad about this? Nothing, my friend, nothing. The distorted teachings are the things you need to watch out for. All of us do. Nothing is perfect, no religion on the face of this Earth is. The one thing that bothers me are the Christians that are IGNORANT to other peoples opinions, I hate that. You have your opinion, and I have mine, friend. I just hope that you can see past the corruption, the corrupt teachings, and find yourself back to God. I am Christian. I am Roman Catholic. I try not to be judgemental. No offense, but it is arrogant to say you aren't. No one is perfect, everyone is judgemental. Accept that, before you accept that Christianity, in whole, is corrupt.

-wD

That was a great post Web. I appreciate it. If only the rest of the world could see things the same way you do...this would be a much better place to live.

[Edited on 4-5-2004 by Garon]

To WeBDeviL you are exactly right , that is what it says. And to Garon, from the bottom of my heart I am soory you almost killed yourself , that sucks ass, but dude, thats your family, not mine. Dude my father in law has a gay dude living in his house. My father in law is a Minister. We are not all like you think. Give us a chance, there are a lot of us. Not the select few you have seen. Maybe its you area , maybe bad luck, but I assure not all. And when you say you despise religion, well..... we follow that religion, just like you say you can't help who you love, niether can I , I alove God, God, is tied with my religion, so to hate my religion is to hate me. But I understand things are hard, dude I am a white Christian, you think you are hated? So am I, by the world? Look at Kosavo were 100's of thousands of Christians have been killed. Look in the Congo, many people have hate. It does not have a agenda with types of people on it. It is in all groups, all creeds, all races. Christianity did not spark it, nor did it start. I don't know how else to say it. Can we be on cool terms?

I am christian and know a few people who struggle with these problems as well, and I agree with web.
When we talk about such subjects we have to make a difference between certain things:

-Sins by choice
-Sins by nature

Most sins have a bit of both in them, for example cheating on your girlfriend. It's a choice to cheat, but it's result of your nature.
Sins by nature alone are usually not seen by the world as real sins, because you can't help what you are.
The world is a little bit hypocritical regarding these types of sins, because for example pedophiles are regarded "wronger" than homophiles.
This is understandable if you realize that pedophiles have a chance to damage people around them, (children) when homophiles don't.
Noone chooses to be different like this, just like noone chooses to become sick. But people still get sick.

Some people are born without legs, are you going to tell them that it's very unnatural to be born without legs?
Are you going to tell them that if God wanted humans without legs, he would have created Adam and Eve without legs as well?
No of course not, you try to understand and support them, the best way you can.

God talks about the sin of being homosexual a few times in the bible, but it's not clear wether He is talking about the sin as a result of nature, or as a result of choice. I personally think that He is talking about sins of choice, because the people He talks about were also having sex with animals/their own family.
The reason for their behavior is not clear to me, but if it is their nature it would mean they are "unisexual" (desiring sex with every animate object), and that does not seem likely.

In the end I think homophile persons are loved by God, and understood by God totally, in fact I think the favor of God is upon people who are born in a "challenging situation" when it's not the result of their own actions.

It's not for others to say how you should live your live, it's something between you and God.
My personal opinion is that God has the ability to free you from any undesired way of being, just like He can heal sick people.
But just as some people are healed and others are not, some may be changed and some may not.
Gods reasons and plans usually remain unseen, and it's not for anyone else then the person in question to try to understand what plans He has regarding this problem.

I do think that giving in to this nature is a sin, however it's not any bigger sin than being jealous or giving in to greed. (for example)
And since noone is without sin, homosexual people are not set apart because of what they do.

What I noticed around me, is that people giving in to homosexual feelings do not seem to be fullfilled/satisfied by their relationships like they hoped.
Their relationship somehow does not make them whole, like "normal" relationships do.
It's just a superfacial satisfaction to a "primal desire", and often these people feel "weird" right after pleasing this desire, probably because the one motivation that the "love" drives on is gone for a moment.

Anyways, I wish you all the wisdom and strength that you need, and remember that God understands your struggles and pain, and that He has no problem seperating "you" from your nature. He loves you more then you know.

I don't understand how anyone can think that a Man putting his P into someones A is Okay. It is filthy, utterly disgusting and an Abomination in the sight of God. Sexual perversion has been the downfall of some earlier civilizations. Sodom and Gomorrha, The flood of Noah are two, that clearly show us the end of this kind of sin. 2 Peter 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. It says in 2 Pet that they were made examples of the Judgement of God that would come upon them that lived such lifestyles. They were destroyed by Fire, which is a prelude to the Eternal Fire of the Lake which will be their ultimate punishment. For those that believe in the Bible and God, the message is crystal clear. These verse's show their Spiritual condition: Romans 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto " VILE" affections: for even their WOMEN did change the NATURALl use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the MEN, leaving the NATURALl use of the woman, "BURNED" in their lust one toward another; MEN WITH MEN working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; [to retain: or, to acknowledge] [a reprobate�: or, a mind void of judgment or, an unapproving mind]
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: [without natural�: or unsociable]
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that " THEY WHICH COMMIT SUCH THINGS ARE WORTHY OF DEATH" not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. [have�: or, consent with]
1 � Therefore thou art INEXCUSABLE, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. For those that laugh and do not believe what the bible has to say, soon you will have your chance to tell God you don't believe.

So how'd the big gay bashing controversy get started anyways is what I'd like to know. Men have been gay for hundreds of years... even the Greeks were quite fond of boys and didn't even make any move to hide it. Was it the onset of the AIDS epidemic?

The bible, (and don't jump down my throat for this, only one girls opinion) to me is like any Roman, Greek, Egyptian, Indian, Hindu, Native American, African myth I've read. Studying it in any comparative study of religion class or mythology class will tell you the same, unless you're at a private religious institution is my wager.

Stories set down to make you learn a thing or two. The problem I find with many Catholics today is that they believe in the bible so much, it seems as though it's not god they believe in, but the book itself. Sure, the authors may have passed it down, as the word of god, but is it really? I suppose faith is an exceedingly strong institution, and I'm envious of the people who've got such strong amounts of it. In a sense though, I'm glad that I don't because I'd hate to push my values on other people, and tell tow people who love each other regardless of sex how to live they're lives because of this 'good book'.

Last time I checked, they were supposed to be preaching love and brotherhood in church, not hate and intolerence.

[Edited on 29-4-2004 by DamnableSara]

If there was a GOD, then it would be ok to be GAY.

If god created he would know of the need for somepeople to be loved, by someone. Not be hated.

True Christians do not bash or hate Gay's, we love all mankind, but we do hate the sin's that men commit by choice just as God hates these abominable acts. I have no problem and help people that struggle with this sin and desire deliverance, but I avoid those that are content in this lifestyle and try to make it right and acceptable in our society.

[Edited on 29-4-2004 by Lastday Prophet]

Its not so much as being gay that is the "evil" that the church is/should be against, it is the sexual addiction that should be looked down on. Gays throughout history have had many partners and spread STDs like no other because of their swinger lifestyle. Now that swinger lifestyle is becoming very popular among the hetero world and you know what STDs will get transmitted and condoms are not 100% effective. Humans loose so much of their potential when they are running around trying to hook up with every other person they meet.

I believe in monogamy and that condoms are unnatural way more unnatual than being gay but that is my opinion and you dont have to agree.

The message in the bible is that sexual practices spread disease and constantly looking for sex lowers a humans thinking potential. This is why so much is put on love and marriage between a man and women.

Also someone who has like 100 partners is going to get bored of sex and if they choose to get married that bond is not as strong as the couple who waited for their "soulmate." Sex is sharing yourself with someone else and the more you share the less you have to give.

I'm heterosexual... I'm still just as at risk of getting some nasty little STD than any gay friend I have. I'd say the big qualm there is promiscuity, not sexuality.

Being gay isn't necessarily a sexual addiction either... I'm somewhat surprised that this is a belief. I have a lot of gay friends that are IN LOVE with their boyfriends or girlfriends. Even though my circle of friends has a few people that don't agree with it, they can accept it as something somebody else chooses to do, and they do not. I don't understand where you get that. People 'lusting' can be any sexuality, any gender, any race or religion in the world.

I think that actually performing gay sex is a sin , but there is no definition between sins, a sin is a sin. More people engage in sodomy and pre maratial sex amongst straight people. What about drunkards? And liars? They dont inherit the kingdom of god either, like perverts and fornicators.

Its really very simple. Once you become a Christian you are forgiven of your sin and you start a new life. Performing gay sex is a sin that is forgiven like any other sin and you leave your sin behind. Same as stealing or killing or anything else.

PROBLEM is this !!! If you teach that you can still perform gay sex AND be a Christian you are under a MAJOR delusion! !!

Originally posted by DamnableSara
I don't understand where you get that. People 'lusting' can be any sexuality, any gender, any race or religion in the world.

You are right, though it is a fact that gay men in general are very promiscous. That is a major factor in the spread of HIV. Lusting is the problem and anyone regardless of sexuality, gender can be blinded by it.

Originally posted by jrod
it is a fact that gay men in general are very promiscous.

And you get this information from all of the gay men that you are friends with?


Deny ignorance.

Originally posted by Jonna

Originally posted by jrod
it is a fact that gay men in general are very promiscous.

And you get this information from all of the gay men that you are friends with?


Deny ignorance.

EXACTLY Jonna!! Show me proof, then I'll apologize for being ignorant myself.

How can you say it's a sin though? Because the bible says so? According to some people, the bible also is very white supremist... little known fact to these people, Jesus was an arab, and possibly even black as night. It's a good thing so many people are trying to save everybody they can... somebody should =\

The facts are there. When HIV first came out there were many cases of 1 carrier infecting 200+ people. Gay bath houses are still around, many gay men still live that kind of lifestyle.

There are many homosexuals out there who are not like that.

Most I know especially in my age range have issues and hooking up all the time with different partners makes them feel better. That is how I see it.


Gay sex is still the most common way HIV gets spread. Look at the facts then deny ignorance.

Originally posted by Lastday Prophet
I don't understand how anyone can think that a Man putting his P into someones A is Okay. It is filthy, utterly disgusting and an Abomination in the sight of God. Sexual perversion has been the downfall of some earlier civilizations. Sodom and Gomorrha, The flood of Noah are two, that clearly show us the end of this kind of sin. 2 Peter 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. It says in 2 Pet that they were made examples of the Judgement of God that would come upon them that lived such lifestyles. They were destroyed by Fire, which is a prelude to the Eternal Fire of the Lake which will be their ultimate punishment. For those that believe in the Bible and God, the message is crystal clear. These verse's show their Spiritual condition: Romans 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto " VILE" affections: for even their WOMEN did change the NATURALl use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the MEN, leaving the NATURALl use of the woman, "BURNED" in their lust one toward another; MEN WITH MEN working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; [to retain: or, to acknowledge] [a reprobate�: or, a mind void of judgment or, an unapproving mind]
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: [without natural�: or unsociable]
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that " THEY WHICH COMMIT SUCH THINGS ARE WORTHY OF DEATH" not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. [have�: or, consent with]
1 � Therefore thou art INEXCUSABLE, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. For those that laugh and do not believe what the bible has to say, soon you will have your chance to tell God you don't believe.

Throwing around bible lines is really kind of useless, I think every christian allready knows those and the non-christians don't really care.
God did not give us the bible so we can throw it at eachother you know.

A man putting his P into someone's A is not the only way for homosexuals to have sex, neither is it preserved for homosexuals only.
Basing your opinion on that kind of arguments is kind of silly.

I asked for the facts... I asked how gay men tend to be more promiscuous then anybody else out there having sex. You never gave anything more than your general knowledge, which I do not percieve as fact.

As Jakko stated, anal sex is not only reserved for homosexuals, there's a lotta people out there with some weird fetishes.

27 And likewise also the MEN, leaving the NATURALl use of the woman, "BURNED" in their lust one toward another; MEN WITH MEN working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

According to the Bible these people BURN in LUST one toward another. The term BURNED means an elevated level of passion that greatly exceeds that of normal activity. These people are no longer satisfied with normal sexual activity, they must ascend to a higher level which becomes perverted and "UNNATURAL" and then are still not satisfied, never able to quence their BURNING desires. The bible gives a clear example of this : Gen 13:13 But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the LORD exceedingly. Gen 18:20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.
Gen 19:1 � And there came two ANGELS to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;
2 And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant�s house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night.
3 And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat.
4 � But before they lay down, the MEN of the city, even the MEN of Sodom, compassed the house round, BOTH OLD AND YOUNG (GAYS), all the people from every quarter:
5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may "KNOW" them. (have sex with)
6 And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,
7 And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so WICKEDLY.
8 Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.
9 And they said, Stand back. And they said again, This one fellow came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge: now will we deal worse with thee, than with them. And they pressed sore upon the man, even Lot, and came near to break the door.
10 But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door.
11 And they( the Angels) smote the men that were at the door of the house with BLINDNESS, both small and great: so that they wearied themselves to find the door.

Here We See The Level Of Perversion In Which They All Decended To No longer did these men desire women, they became so wicked that they desired to have sex with the Angels, a true Abomination on the highest level. If we allow these people today to go on with their agenda, they too will reach this same Abominable level of Perversion. They asked Lot, Who was he to Judge them, The same they ask us today when we say that they should not commit such acts. We can no longer standby and allow this perversion to continue, It has destroyed our families and is decaying our society. If you look at the act these people perform, it is like unto two dogs stuck together, totally disgusting, they have reverted into being like animals and crude beast which know not the Lord.