If Being Gay is alright in the eyes of God then.....

Jesus also forgave and loved everyone, regardless of who they were. Even his enemies.

A common misconception, this belief leads to an undesirable life. Because Jesus forgives everybody doesn't grant you the right to live a life of folly and vulgarity - you must understand that, and I think you'd need to spend some time with the scriptures if you don't.

Garon,
Christ led by example and through instruction. Declaring homosexuality as a sin was one such example. When I say strive to be him, for he is our one true example of a perfect being, I certainly don't inqure of you to cut your hair a certain way, etc.

Fortinbras,
I do indeed believe 100% in the bible, and I question the authenticiy of any 'Christian' who does not. The Bible is God-inspired and true...the game of 'telephone' doesn't apply here. And in your definition of what kind of Christian you were, you didn't once mention that you were the kind of Christian that believes in Jesus Christ, and belives that he did indeed die on a cross for our sins...your characteristics of compassion and respect, although noteworthy and sincere, definately do not qualify for Christianship, and I pray that you seek guidance as to the true meaning of Christianity.

"A common misconception, this belief leads to an undesirable life. Because Jesus forgives everybody doesn't grant you the right to live a life of folly and vulgarity ..."

So it looks like there are two choices. Either one is a fundamentalist Christian, or one lives a life of folly and vulgarity. Very interesting.

"...Christ led by example and through instruction. Declaring homosexuality as a sin was one such example..."

So this means you were there with him watching every day of Jesus' life? This means you know for a fact that Jesus never had sex, with a woman, a man, or himself? You don't know that. Nobody knows that.


"I do indeed believe 100% in the bible, and I question the authenticiy of any 'Christian' who does not..."

I, in turn, question the authenticity of your narrow definition of 'Christian.' I know dozens of Christians who question the Bible. I question anybody who DOESN'T question. When I am constantly questioning: "Am I doing the right thing here?" that leads me to the possibility that I may be in error. If I were to go about my life every day convinced I were always doing the right thing then I would be a sorry human being indeed.

"The Bible is God-inspired and true...the game of 'telephone' doesn't apply here. .."

The Bible is the biggest example of the game of telephone that we have ever seen. Open your eyes.

"And in your definition of what kind of Christian you were, you didn't once mention that you were the kind of Christian that believes in Jesus Christ, and belives that he did indeed die on a cross for our sins..."

I don't believe for an instant that Jesus came to earth to provide a sacrifice for our sins. I believe Jesus came to show us by example. The gospels show a very different picture than the post-death Jesus as painted by Paul and his ilk. I prefer to focus on the living Jesus, rather than the dead and glorified Jesus.

I can not convince any fundamentalist Christian of anything that s/he doesn't want to be convinced of. So I will not try. All I will say is: I know God. I am closer to God living my life today than I was back in the fundamentalist Christian church.

I recommend:

A History of God by Karen Armstrong
The Gnostic Gospels by Elaine Pagels
The Gospel According to Jesus by Stephen Mitchell

I have read much on all sides of the fence. The more I read the more I am convinced there is no One Way. There never could be. We as humans are far too diverse.

Originally posted by Cenarius

Jesus also forgave and loved everyone, regardless of who they were. Even his enemies.

A common misconception, this belief leads to an undesirable life. Because Jesus forgives everybody doesn't grant you the right to live a life of folly and vulgarity - you must understand that, and I think you'd need to spend some time with the scriptures if you don't.

I never used Jesus's life to condone anything other than to be kind and understanding to people. Even my "enemies." Spend some time with the "scriptures?" Jesus never said anything about homosexuals in the bible as far as I can recall....... What Jesus said and taught seems to be a whole lot different than the rest of the bible in my eyes. But that is my percpetion, not my judgement. Only someone with true arrogance would think themselves right to judge.

How do you know that Jesus would have thought my life or other's was of "folly and vulgarity?"

YOU DON'T.

Let me state for the record, I am not a homosexual. That being said, I NEVER question how others want to lead their lives as long as it does not hurt anyone.

I look up to Jesus because he could reach out and forgive even the people who murdered him... who were Roman soldiers..... and who by the way, commonly practiced homosexuality.

.

[Edited on 6-5-2004 by Facefirst]

Perhaps God is using homosexuality to cut down on the out-of-control population growth since war, disease, and poverty don't seem to be getting it done.

Originally posted by Ambient Sound
Perhaps God is using homosexuality to cut down on the out-of-control population growth since war, disease, and poverty don't seem to be getting it done.

I thought the NWO was is charge of that!

Live and let live people........ just take people one person at a time.

How about looking at people based on the merits of their character, not their sexual preference.......

If I was drowning in the ocean, I would not care if the hand that reached out to save me was gay or straight......



[Edited on 6-5-2004 by Facefirst]

yeah gods not in charge of the nwo. but the antichrist is. seeing in as everyone believes in him why cant they just allow that something is wrong. unatural.

just because its in text taht homosexuality is wrong and the nwo is coming doesnt mean that hes making it happen. but just preparing us for whats at stake. look at events.

i would think deseases are spreading through homosexuality. which is why this next election is gonnab e a big one.

Originally posted by topsecretombomb
yeah gods not in charge of the nwo. but the antichrist is. seeing in as everyone believes in him why cant they just allow that something is wrong. unatural.

just because its in text taht homosexuality is wrong and the nwo is coming doesnt mean that hes making it happen. but just preparing us for whats at stake. look at events.

i would think deseases are spreading through homosexuality. which is why this next election is gonnab e a big one.

Don't quite get you there.....

What were you trying to say?

Originally posted by Cenarius
Christ led by example and through instruction. Declaring homosexuality as a sin was one such example. When I say strive to be him, for he is our one true example of a perfect being, I certainly don't inqure of you to cut your hair a certain way, etc.

1. When did JESUS (not Paul) declare homosexuality a sin? I don't believe he mentioned anything about it, one way or another.

2. Why don't you think it matters how one cuts their hair?
After all, in 1 Corinthians 11 it says,
14. Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?
15. But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for [her] hair is given her for a covering.

So are my father and my boyfriend shameful, since they both have long hair?

I do indeed believe 100% in the bible, and I question the authenticiy of any 'Christian' who does not. The Bible is God-inspired and true...the game of 'telephone' doesn't apply here...your characteristics of compassion and respect, although noteworthy and sincere, definately do not qualify for Christianship, and I pray that you seek guidance as to the true meaning of Christianity.

You may believe in the Bible 100% but do you follow every single rule and/or commandment in it 100%? How do you decide which parts are still valid and which parts are not?
What exactly is the "true meaning" of Christianity in your book?
Do you consider the following passage to be relevant to the Christian lifestyle:

Romans 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in [his] brother's way.
Romans 14:14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that [there is] nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him [it is] unclean...
Romans 14:19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
Romans 14:20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed [are] pure; but [it is] evil for that man who eateth with offence...
Romans 14:22 Hast thou faith? have [it] to thyself before God. Happy [is] he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
Romans 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because [he eateth] not of faith: for whatsoever [is] not of faith is sin.

Originally posted by jezebel
What exactly is the "true meaning" of Christianity in your book?
Do you consider the following passage to be relevant to the Christian lifestyle:

Many good points presented there. Well put.

My own interpretation of Christianity is based on Christ himself and what he taught: That lesson being one of uncondtional love and forgiveness. It seems to me what Christ taught is the real core of Christian beliefs, not the filler stuff that comprises the rest of the Bible.

MLK seems to be one of the few who actually understood and practiced Christ's message. He loved everyone, he even loved his enemies as much as he loved his own children. We could all learn a little tolerance and respect from that example.

Blessed be the people like MLK who actually lived what they preached.
.



[Edited on 7-5-2004 by Facefirst]

Originally posted by Facefirst
Many good points presented there. Well put.

My own interpretation of Christianity is based on Christ himself and what he taught: That lesson being one of uncondtional love and forgiveness. It seems to me what Christ taught is the real core of his beliefs, not the filler stuff that comprises the rest of the Bible.

I, too, share the belief that the actual teachings of Jesus are the key to being a "Christian". Personally, I feel that the book of John is the only part we need to find the Truth. I know that is not going to go over well with the "Christian" population here, but that doesn't really matter. The other NT books are good, because they help to clarify things (for the most part), but they also are responsible for the vast amount of un-Truth that is so prevalent. Fortunately, Truth is Truth and cannot be changed, so the message remains, even with the mistakes and mistranstlations the Bible contains.

The coolest thing is that when you look at the CORE teachings of Jesus, Buddha, Krishna, Muhhamad, etc. they are all the same. That is what shows me that they are indeed the Truth.

The Truth is that all we need to do, is love each other as ourselves. If we could all at least understand that one principle, everything would have a chance to right itself and life could again be as it was intended.

When interpreting the bible, it's important to keep using your brains.
Gods word is indeed holy and pure, but truth is that it is translated and slightly editted quite a lot, and that some words were translated in a rather subjective way.

"Would God allow his holy word to become corrupted?"

Well would God allow humans to become corrupted?
We still have a thing called freedom of choice, and God will not break into our lives, unasked to set things straight. He is not rude like that.
Same goes for those that translated the bible, unlike the original authors they were not directly connected to God and could have translated stuff in a wrong way.
The real bible manuscripts are closest to what God wanted to say to us, and that's why when dealing with important and crucial matters like homosexuality, investigating the ground-texts is required to form a right opinion.
The best example of this, is the "fear God" fairytale.
God never wanted anyone to be afraid of Him, in fact when one of Gods angels appears to humans in the bible, the first words spoken are always "have no fear".
The words "have no fear" are in the bible 365 times, and no this is not coincidence.
Have no fear, not even one day of the year.
"fear God" has to do with respect, and with understanding that you can never comprehend the size of God relative to you.
Regardless of that, God wants to communicate and have a relationship with you, now that's grace.

Being born as someone who's attracted to your own gender is not easy, is not your fault, is not sinfull and is not something to be ashamed of either.
Putting it in practise is your own business, and people who are revolted by that are hypocrits and not aware of the most important message in the bible.
Not putting it in practise means a life without sex. It seems strange to me that God only made sex for those lucky enough to be born straight, allthough I can't base my opinion on anything in the bible.
In the end it's between you and God.

It seems this thread has run out of steam.

I remember what a minister told me years ago. I had come to him in anguish, telling him that I wanted to be right in the eyes of the Lord but didn't want to be gay. He said, 'It sounds like you think God hates you.' I was surprised at his directness, and admitted that he was right. He put his arms around me and hugged me and said, 'God doesn't hate you. I don't hate you. You are a child of God.' It was the first time I had thought that God could love me in spite of being gay. This wonderful soul then went on to tell me that he pictured himself being questioned by Jesus. He would rather Jesus say, 'Why were you too generous with my love?' rather than 'Why were you too stingy with my love?' I decided to adopt his attitude. It sounded much more Christlike than hurling threats around.

When I think of the times Jesus is depicted as angry in the Bible I think of the objects of his anger. His anger seems to be directed towards the buyers and sellers in the temple, and the religious hypocrites of the day. I also think of the powerful advice to take care of the plank in one's own eye before helping someone else with the dust mote in his eye.

A story: my good friend Russell is one of the most Christian men I've ever met. His family's church has built a school and church in Uganda with their own hands. He has adopted several of the kids over there both financially and spiritually/emotionally. He goes to Uganda as often as he can. Russell is making a huge difference in the quality of life to this community. One day last year a member of Rusell's parents' church informed the pastor in Uganda - the head of the church they had built - that Russell is gay and presented a grave danger to the integrity of the mission. This church member got a small group to rally in support of banning Russell from participating in the mission, and barring him from the church. The Ugandan minister's response: "Russell is one of the best Christians I have ever met. Not only is he a father to many of these children, we consider him to be our own son." Russell is continuing to be a full supporter of the mission. Even though he is 20 years younger than me, I think I want to be just like him when I grow up.

I know that God loves me - not in spite of being gay, but simply because God loves me.

Leviticus 20:13
" 'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

Where is the free will in that? Apparantly you have no right to live if you choose the gay way of living.

"They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

Why? Because .. God says so!!
and it seems like God also want humanity to do the dirty work for him.

A tiny point of correction: I did not choose to be gay. Being gay chose me. I have been gay as long as I've had any thoughts of orientation. It's not like I was heterosexual all my life and one day said, "Hey, those guys are having sex with each other. I think I'll do that, too!"

The thought that gay people choose to be gay is a grand misconception. True, we can choose to act on our desires or not. We can choose to be out of the closet or not. But I don't know any gay man who 'chose' to be gay.

Food for thought...

Fort

the thing that gets me about the quote: 'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman,..."
is the sexism of it all. its not so much the sex that they're participating in as much as its that the "righteous" MAN is lowering himself to the position of woman and the other man (the top i guess) is disrespecting the manlyness of the the other man.
thats some OLD gender valuation.

All of the quotes that say a man need be put to death for being homosexual, or for having long hair, etc. - these quotes are found in the old testament. After JC died, he filled that covenent and the New Covenent came into existence.

This is the easiest way to explain this, and this is what helped me to understand it. In the old testement there are numerous laws that state what sort of meat is to be eaten and on certain days, some meats are to be used to sacrifice. Alright, saying today that christians aren't obeying god by having long hair is the same thing as saying they aren't christians because they don't sacrifice lambs. The reason we don't is because the ultimate lamb has been sacrificed, Jesus Christ. Therefore, sacrifices are no longer necessary. This same concept applies to "Thou shall kill a man if he have long hair" or whatnot nearly everybody and their mother is quoting in this passage. These were a set of laws that a different people lived by, before they had Jesus Christ to look upon as we do.

Greetings ALL,

I have a web page with articles on homosexuality from those who use the Name Yahweh and believe that we are to obey His Law. In the near future, I will be adding links with other diverse views on homosexuality to this page.

Articles On Homosexuality

I myself can not see homosexual acts as natural. It is obvious to me that the sexual act is for procreation between male and female.

Re: "What the Bible says..." The Bible is a complete document. It is a full guide to all aspects of life. This is what the Bible says about homosexual behavior.

All of the twelve or so biblical passages about homosexual behavior are negative. One even calls for the death penalty for homosexual offenders. One says that homosexuals cannot go to heaven. The passages about Sodom in Genesis clearly refer to sodomy; that is how we got the term. Leviticus clearly refers to all forms of gay and lesbian behavior. The condemnations of Romans and 1 Corinthians clearly refer to homosexual behavior.

Moses wrote the first five books of the Bible; the Bible itself says so repeatedly. God dictated the words, word for word, at Mount Sinai, a dramatic event witnessed by thousands 3.200 years ago.

God created the institution of heterosexual marriage in Genesis 2. The concept of homosexual marriage is nowhere mentioned in the Bible.

There is no biblical passage in which God directly states his approval of any of the other seven forms of marriage.

Celibacy, or conversion to heterosexuality are the only moral choices for homosexuals.

If homosexual behavior is sufficient to call for the death penalty and to prevent a person from going to Heaven, then it is inconceivable that God would approve of same-sex marriage.

Colossians 3:5 states that neither adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites (another term for homosexuals, an abuser of one's self with mankind (one who lies with a male as with a female), nor thieves (including false teachers, who abuse their confidence for their own gain), nor covetous (people eager to have more especially what belongs to others, greedy of gain), nor drunkards, nor revilers (people who use abusive language in speaking to or about others), nor extortioners (swindlers, cheaters) will inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Cor. 6:9,10)

Of course, anyone who simply rejects the Biblical words based upon unbelief, disagreement or other reasons can say they are not bound by these pronouncements. That is true, at least in this life.

I can only suggest that is is possible that ours is the Final Generation. Details are published in the Torah Code and End of Days pages at a website, www.onealclan.com if anyone would like to check that out.

Do not take any of this as gay bashing. We all have choices but anyone who disagrees with either position has an obligation to look at both sides.