If Being Gay is alright in the eyes of God then.....

Wow..big thread. I wish I had time to read all 36 pages and I may get to it later when I don't have to go to work so for now I'll just put in my 2 pennies worth.

I don't give a frogs flying fat ass who does what with who. Love is love as far as I'm concerned and again it comes down to nunya as far as I'm concerned.

To drive it home, it's nunya #in' business who sleeps with who as long as both are of the age of consent. Live and let live. JMO.

That's the non-religious reply, if you want to bring God into the equation, then I would say that I can't believe any God would have a problem with Love, whatever sex it comes in.

Now the hate. I think God definitely has a problem with THAT.

There is just something about using bible quotes as a crutch against actually thinking for yourself that really turns me off. I'm sorry, but religion does not bring people together as much as it tears them apart. I guess that it is just me.

Here is what God has to say to all those that do not believe in God or the Bible: 2Pet 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in THEM ( the Unbelievers) that perish; because they received not (would not accept the truth of the Bible) the love of the TRUTH, that they might be SAVED.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a LIE:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the TRUTH, but had PLEASURE in unrighteousness.

Originally posted by Lastday Prophet
Here is what God has to say to all those that do not believe in God or the Bible: 2Pet 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in THEM ( the Unbelievers) that perish; because they received not (would not accept the truth of the Bible) the love of the TRUTH, that they might be SAVED.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a LIE:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the TRUTH, but had PLEASURE in unrighteousness.

Hey, do you even read other peoples posts?
I am saying this as a christian, you're not only making a fool out of yourself, but also of christianity in general, by quoting loads of lines out of the bible in every single post you make.
And don't even try to tell me that the bible is the truth, I know it is, but it does not mean you should copy paste it to support your own simplistic views.

I've just about had it with people degrading the bible like that, ripping things out of their context.
What you achieve by this is creating aversion against yourself and christianity in general. (as if there is not enough misunderstanding regarding christianity and the bible allready)
If you have to use the bible in this discussion, maybe you could try to understand what the bible says and use your own words, now you're just the next copy paste christian.
Trust me, there are enough copy paste christians in this world allready.

Jakko, if you had any understanding, you would understand that the reason I post scriptures is to limit my personal interpretation of the Bible. Those words are God Speaking, not me. So the question would be is God a Liar, for those verses are his revelation to us, not mine. Would you dare call God a Liar ?

We don't let the druggies march on washington to be heard.

wanna bet?
www.millionmarijuanamarch.org...

there is no vast gay conspiracy. this is where christianity loses its meaning to me. that physical love and affection can bring the wrath of god.
While i do believe that the nwo do want a morality meltdown and the destruction of society (and maybe they used homosexuality as a tool to do so... probably not) it seems more of a matter of divide and conquer.

Originally posted by Lastday Prophet
Jakko, if you had any understanding, you would understand that the reason I post scriptures is to limit my personal interpretation of the Bible. Those words are God Speaking, not me. So the question would be is God a Liar, for those verses are his revelation to us, not mine. Would you dare call God a Liar ?

You rip parts of Gods personal book to us out of their context to support your narrow opinions.
Once again, the christians have a bible of their own, they don't need you to copy paste half a bible, and the non-christians are not interested in your copy-paste abilities.

[Edited on 29-4-2004 by Jakko]

IMO not being able to accept other people loving one another is your problem an not theirs, go talk to your Shrink or your god an work it out with them but to the other people they havent talked to you or even thought about your very exsistence so why go fret'in an hate'in? Just keep with your love an your ideas an maybe learn to see that "Its a thing called Love" Worry about the people who have hatred in their hearts their the ones who will carjack you at gun point an/or rob you on the streets afterwards give you a nice jab in the spleen. their the ones you should be paranoid about.

let freedom ring for crying out loud!

Did Anyone read my post???????????????

Gay sex is a sin like any other. If a gay person chooses Christ and becomes a christian then their gay live is over and they inherit a new life. Same as with a drunk or a drug addict or a promiscuious person gay or straight, or those who play with witch craft, socery etc.

The only problem with this is what i mentioned in the last post. When people mix sin with God. Like saying its ok to be a practising gay and still be Christian. The whole point is that Jesus came into the world to defeat the devil and GAY SEX is just another pervertion of satan.

As far as the hate and judgement from the Christians thats fine. As they judge so they themselves will be judged. Jesus said FEW find the way to life. Few of the Christians today will find life, only a remnant will make it.
Thats right...FEW of those today who profess to be Christians will find the kingdom of heaven. Just wait and see as time marches on. Wait and see those who will leave and those who will stay. The real church at the end of this age will not even be in public view, it will be underground, OUTLAWED. Today its Islamic fundementalists, tommorow Christian fudementalists (who are in fact the REAL Christians, as they live their lives according to the word of God and understand true salvation)

As far as those who reject the gospel and live their lives as they want to then let them, its their free will to do what they want.
There are more people in the world who reject Jesus and live other faiths and lifestyles than gay ppl!!!!!

The whole gay thing is overblown. Less than 4 % are really gay. Of course the more we put it into the public mind the more people will experiment.

But my point of this post is simple. Everyone is arguing about this and getting into it, but the post is about God and gay people. Its SIMPLE. If someone doesnt want to know God and repent then they can carry on their lifestyle like all the other ANTIGOD lifestyles ie drugs, fornication, idol worship, drinking, murder etc. If someone does repent and choose God then God will remove the sin from them. God will start a work in them and he will finish it. He created heaven and earth he can finish a work of salvation in anyone. Many people are called by God. They either answer or they dont. Few people are chosen by God..those who are chosen its a different situation because God hasnt just called them to see what they will decide but he has chosen them from their womb, even before they were born. Like the scripture says "Many are called FEW are chosen"

Any gay people reading this know this: God loves you even now as you are in your sin, but for you to live forever with God (which is so much better and greater than any sexual experience or same sex love) he will change you from what you are into a sin less person. This process can take a long time, and even after death it is not finished untill the final resurection. But those who become the children of God will inherit PLANETS, SOLAR SYSTEMS...entire UNIVERSES...God will bless them above all creation....no eye has seen , ear heard that which waits for them that LOVE God


So its better to remove the gay thing entirely and ask this question..... Who do you choose Sin/ Satan or God?
Satan brought sin into the world, Jesus came to destroy it. ANd in the end ONLY the meek and those who choose God will inherit the Earth. God is love, those who love are of God. Satan has no love. yet he has deceived this earth for thousands of years!

Finally whether its gay sex (i say gay sex because this is what god objects to, any other form of love between same sex is fine its the ACTUAL FORNICATION the actual SEX itself that is disgusting to God) or any other sin the simple truth is this, everything done in earth bares fruit or earns something. Like we are all planting seeds everyday of different things...the "wages" are the reward of that which we have planted because EVERYTHING you do comes back to you. The wages or reward of sin is DEATH. Gay sex is just one form of SIN.

Jakko, Firstly, I don't really care what "NON CHRISTIANS" think. They are the ones deceived by the devil and walk in error. Second, those verses are totally in context, I did not pull out a peticular verse to make any claim, all the verses are as they are written so that any person with average intelligence can form their own conclusion. I wonder why the scriptures seem to bother you ? conviction maybe ?

[Edited on 29-4-2004 by Lastday Prophet]

"Finally whether its gay sex (i say gay sex because this is what god objects to, any other form of love between same sex is fine its the ACTUAL FORNICATION the actual SEX itself that is disgusting to God)"

is it a sin for a married hetero "christian" couple to engage in sodomy? or are they participating in gay sex? ? ? ? ?

truthstrangerthanfiction; have fun in heaven without us. you're right there will be few of you there, say hi to my granma.
i personally don't think god is so insecure that he needs his beloved children to worship and follow rules or he'll banish them to hell forever.. not my god.

Originally posted by Lastday Prophet
Jakko, Firstly, I don't really care what "NON CHRISTIANS" think. They are the ones deceived by the devil and walk in error. Second, those verses are totally in context, I did not pull out a peticular verse to make any claim, all the verses are as they are written so that any person with average intelligence can form their own conclusion. I wonder why the scriptures seem to bother you ? conviction maybe ?

[Edited on 29-4-2004 by Lastday Prophet]

You do care what non-christians think, or else you would not be on these forums.
You actually do rip texts out of their context, and abuse the bible to "win a discussion" instead of actually trying to help others in the problems they face.
You know what, you just continue with your amazing copy-paste posts, I'll just ignore you and hope others do it too.

Just to lend my fews in here. My religion is my own business first of all, when people start spouting out religious evangelistic crap at eachother or atheistic evangelistic crap we find ourselves in a "my god is better then your god" fight which only leads to, as we see in history, most of the worlds most destructive wars in the timespan of human race.

Anyways, let me just put this simply, if you believe in a god, and you believe he created everything, then you must believe that god created homosexuals too.

Also, As a person whos friends with many different people, about 4 of them I know being openly gay. I can confirm that, by their own statement, it wasnt a choice, its just how they are. Thus they are born gay, its never been a choice.

Let people live, we only have a short time on this earth, and then to maker knows where else. They arent hurting you, and with science today, even gays can have kids or adopt kids. They arent destroying the species when its less then 5% of humans being gay. Just let people live, and stop trying to ruin peoples lives

I think its okay, it has to be. What about the people who are born both sexs. If people think being gay is wrong then who should those people go out with. They have a right to marry too.

Actually a multitude at the end of the tribulation do make it..so there will be many ..although compared to the total number of people who have ever lived there will be hardly any.

Why you so touchy anyway? If you understand Gods plan of salvation then you will understand that it involves repentance and turning away from sin, whether gay or whatever. But you dont even understand salvation. You dont need salvation seeing as you dont think that you have sin, or are inheritly evil.

You dont like a God who gives laws etc? Like 10 Commandments? So you wouldnt mind if I raped your sister? maybe girlfriend? killed your family?

Yeah its cool to follow a god who has no laws, lets you do what you want....but then I guess it isnt a god is it..its just your idol...actually just a delusion.

Whenever I hear a 'christian' talk about how wrong being gay is I think: and when did the sexual orientation fairy appear to you and offer YOU a choice?
Folks like Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell and, God help us all, Fred Phelps, all are completely convinced that being gay is a choice. As if they have ever had to deal with their sexuality in terms of anything other than 'I'm heterosexual so anything else is wrong.'
What I say is: Until you have walked a city block in my gay shoes, don't you be wagging your nasty-ass finger at me telling me where to put my willie!

You see, the problem is that these heterosexuals, with their God-given 'normal' sexual orientations believe that there really isn't such a thing as homosexuality. They seem to believe that the world is made up of heterosexuals. Everyone who doesn't fit into that category is simply a misbehaving heterosexual. The line of reasoning here seems to be: 'The thought of having sex with another man is revolting to me. Therefore, if any man has sex with another man, he enjoys being revolted. That is so sick! It is wrong! It is wrong for me so it is wrong for everyone! And look! I can pull these Bible quotes out of context to prove my point! See? God hates queers, too!'

Um, no.

1) The whole story of Sodom and Gomorrah has much less to do with sexuality than with hospitality. If you take the idea that every man in Sodom and/or Gomorrah was homosexual, then how do you explain the fact that there are daughters present? Um, hello! If an entire city has gay sex, I don't think there would be much progeny.
2) Jesus didn't say a single word about homosexuality. And don't tell me it was too disgusting for him to notice or mention. Homosexuality was a widely accepted practice among much of the ancient world. The fact that he never said anything about it - or that he did and it was edited out - says to me that he just isn't that worried about it.
3) There is the argument "Homosexuality is a crime against nature. Animals don't do it." I have two responses to that. The first is: animals don't read the Bible, either. Since when are animals representative of The Pure State of Holiness? My second response is: you idiot, animals practice homosexuality MORE than humans do. Chimpanzees in the wild experience an astonishing array of sexual practices. We all know that Canadian geese tend to couple for life. How romantic. Well, there are plenty of documented cases of male geese coupling for life. There is also the case of the penguins in the Central Park zoo raising a baby chick. Two male penguins. Is this evil? Or just part of the exuberance of nature? In fact, why not check out the book 'Biological Exuberance' by Bruce Bagemihl? It is chock-full of documented cases of homosexuality in the animal kingdom. So far, animals have yet to pass laws against same sex unions. Neither do they tend to make signs saying 'God Hates Fags' and parade around in front of homosexual animals. Animals simply don't care if other animals are drawn to members of the same sex. Hmmm. Maybe animals are a bit more morally superior to us after all.
4) When in doubt, trot out tired old Leviticus and make signs saying God Hates Fags. You can even put a Bible verse underneath to 'prove' that God agrees with you. Problem with this is, if you're going to follow that one line in Leviticus, you kinda have to follow them all. So you can't work on the sabbath, or you get stoned to death. You can't wear clothes woven with two kinds of thread. Oh, and lobster is also an abomination. What makes you think God 'hates' homos any more than he 'hates' lobster, or shrimp, or crab? Do you offer doves as a burnt sacrifice on the altar of the Lord? Do you sequester your wife for seven days when she has her period? No? Then shut the hell up with this Leviticus crap and stop selectively choosing verses that merely reflect your own twisted bias.
5) I think it is worth mentioning here that not only did Jesus not say a word about homosexuality, but Peter had a vision in Acts 10:9-16. He was on the top of a building, feeling very hungry, when God showed him a vision. Peter saw a cloth full of all kinds of unclean animals lowered from heaven. The voice of God said, "Kill and eat!" Peter said, 'no, Lord, those are unclean, I can't eat them!' Three times God lowers this cloth and tells Peter to kill and eat. Now, why would God show Peter unclean animals and tell him to eat? Perhaps the idea here is that the old laws of the Old Testament were replaced by a new law, the law of the New Covenant. In this paradigm, the Spirit of God enters us and tells us by daily revelation how to live. Does this mean we go out and break commandments and riot in the streets and carouse and drink because the old law has been taken away? No. Because the law is now written on our hearts. God leads us into holy behavior. And since I have prayed daily since I was a little kid for God's guidance, I can not see that I have been led into evil ways by the mere fact that I am gay.
6) If the above makes you sick, then ask yourself: how do you know your version of the Bible is the correct one? When was the Bible created? Did it fall out of the sky - ZAP! - fully formed, in English? Or was it created by numerous committees, numerous hands writing numerous words/chapters/books, translated, re-translated, edited, watered-down, politicized by the various religious leaders over the past 2,000 years? What are you going to believe more? A book with an extremely dubious history, or the leadings of your own gentle heart?
7) Let us not forget the story of Jonathan and David. That story is an embarrssing mystery to many a biblical 'scholar.' The dances and bending-over-backwards I've seen preachers do in order to assure us that Jonathan and David were 'just friends' makes me laugh. Just read the story. It's in Samuel 1 and 2. The guys were totally in love. It's the most romantic story in the whole Bible.
8) Folks who rail against the evils of the modern world will blow blue in the face against books, movies, songs and all manner of art that they see as threatening their fragile view of reality. "But have you actually SEEN The Last Temptation of Christ/Will and Grace/Jesus Christ Superstar/Corpus Christi?" Almost invariably, the response is: "No! I will not tolerate such filth!" Well, dude, I have read the Bible for years. I have read C.S. Lewis, Hal Lindsey, Meister Eckhardt, Bruce Wilkinson, Corrie ten Boom, Tertullian. I have listened to Keith Green, Honeytree, Second Chapter of Acts. I have gazed upon murals by Michelangelo and frescoes by Da Vinci. I believe that any faith worth defending is faith worth examining. When I began to examine the basis of the pentecostal faith that I'd believed for so many years I was astonished to see how quickly it crumbled away under intelligent scrutiny. But I wanted to know more. So I read. I continue to read. If you're going to blast me for watching Queer Eye for the Straight Guy (as one pastor in Alabama has done) then at least do us the favor of watching an episode so you know what the heck you're talking about.
And, by the way, Da Vinci and Michelangelo were homosexuals.
9) Why is it that the 'pro life' contingent rails against the 'American holocaust' of abortion but seems equally adamant to rail FOR the death penalty? Why is life MORE precious in the womb than out of it? Why?
10) Even if none of the above does anything to move anyone to anything other than 'righteous anger' (which is nothing more than disgust bolstered by a sense of moral superiority) then at least consider this: in Matthew, someone asks Jesus what is the greatest commandment. He replies (I am paraphrasing here) You must love God with all your heart and all your mind and all your strength. The second greatest commandment is pretty much the same: love your neighbor as yourself. If you do these two things, you will see the Kingdom of Heaven.

A pause to reflect.

I would rather focus on what Jesus said was the most important commandment and let the rest fall as it may. If we all truly love God, we will be peaceful, generous, loving, gentle people. Sounds like the Kingdom of Heaven to me.

Or, we can rip the law out of God's hands and wreak havoc on everyone who doesn't seem to fit our vision of holiness.

-5/5/04

Brilliant.

What a great way to start off. Welcome to the boards.

A pause to reflect.

I would rather focus on what Jesus said was the most important commandment and let the rest fall as it may. If we all truly love God, we will be peaceful, generous, loving, gentle people. Sounds like the Kingdom of Heaven to me.

Or, we can rip the law out of God's hands and wreak havoc on everyone who doesn't seem to fit our vision of holiness.

-5/5/04

Fortinbras, well put.

Take people one person at a time. Live and let live folks.

I believe homosexuality is a sin," usually means, "I believe homosexual behavior is sinful." The Church has traditionally held that homosexual behavior is wrong while homosexual attraction is a temptation. (I'm not saying whether this position is right or wrong, but it is the traditional Christian position.) Merely "being gay," then, would not be a sin unless the individual engages in some sort of sexual behavior.

Is it reasonable to assume that some people might be born with certain temptations and that other people would be born with different temptations? It seems reasonable to me. We have evidence to indicate that certain people may be born with a predisposition towards alcoholism or with a "shorter fuse" making them more likely to become violent when angry. This does not make such people engage in these behaviors, nor does it excuse them from the sinfulness of their actions. But a person with a genetic predisposition towards alcoholism (if it indeed exists) would have to fight harder to stay sober than a person without that predisposition.

We all have an inborn tendency to sin, according to Christian thought. Ever since Adam and Eve, every human being is born with a sinful nature. However, we each have free will, and we make the decisions to fight our temptations or to give in to them. A heterosexual male has a biological drive to desire sexual relations with more than one woman; however, Christianity says that he must control that desire and remain faithful to his wife. Similarly, it is possible that a homosexual male would have a biological drive to desire sexual relations with men, but if such behavior is sinful then he would have to control himself.

Originally posted by BlackJackal
We all have an inborn tendency to sin, according to Christian thought. Ever since Adam and Eve, every human being is born with a sinful nature.

No disrespect to anyone's beliefs here, but that is one of my reasons for not agreeing with my Christian upbringing anymore.

I don't not believe in the concept of original sin.

Certain biological pre-dispositions aside, we are born with a clean slate.

It does not make sense to me for a person to be born a sinner automaticaly based on things that they had no control over.


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[Edited on 5-5-2004 by Facefirst]