Eating Meat is Unethical

a reply to: Xtrozero

My point was that since farming our brain has been shrinking period.

What I'm saying is that since we relied less on hunter gathering and developed farming water irrigation and animal husbandry and the technology that went with it, we concurrently learned systems of accounting record keeping transportation storage of surplus produce. Trading surplus with adjoining communities encouraged trading in art, exchange of scientific data. The 10% loss of brain mass is nothing. As you saw from the quote intelligence is made up from far more than gms/ozs.

a reply to: NewzNose

Bacon and sausage are the only meats I suddenly caanot stand

I stopped pork many years ago,I have a little bacon now and again. I think there may be some wisdom as to why Muslims and Jews dont eat pork.

a reply to: Son of Will

) And of course, you can't claim to be respectful of another creature and then slaughter it. Since it was unnecessary, that makes it a choice - you CHOOSE to steal another sentient creature's life. You may think they are inferior, but does that make them less worthy of life?

Do you wipe your arse on paper made from murdered trees or use rewashable linen napkins? Thought not

a reply to: Son of Will

starve and have not enough water.

I thought the earth was a closed system...water doesn't just disappear. Lets also ban water use that goes into making aluminium or textiles , then you can round around naked and hand generate electricity with a dynamo so you can keep typing up these fun threads.

Every year the world produces more than enough food to feed everyone, the problem lies in hoarding and speculation in the future markets. Food price gouging is done by the large supermarket chains, the farmer seems to make less and less every year. Australia produces some of the best crayfish in the world, but it ends overseas as it can command a better price.

a reply to: saadad

Someone need to consume crap, so we can eat real food.

So you call meat crap? Sounds like you're an angry recovering meataholic, dont worry you'll be sane again sometime soon.

a reply to: Son of Will

we were primates for tens of millions of years,

Says you. We started walking more upright and yet we are herbivores. How does that work? Why are you in denial?
From a physiological point of view we dont live long in a vacuum...Using your logic we shouldnt even be flying let alone exploring space hurtling through a vacuum. What other straws are you gonna keep clutching at.

too late.

even Venus flytraps eat meat.

a reply to: Son of Will

Humans are adapted to be omnivores. Full stop.

I just enjoyed Turkey and Venison.....yum.....love abit of bambi!

Just sat down to Turkey, Beef and Ham. And not forgetting the Pigs in Blankets.

a reply to: Son of Will
Arguing with Pink Floyd is unethical

Why do you hate pudding? Your argument is invalid.

originally posted by: TheConstruKctionofLight

What I'm saying is that since we relied less on hunter gathering and developed farming water irrigation and animal husbandry and the technology that went with it, we concurrently learned systems of accounting record keeping transportation storage of surplus produce. Trading surplus with adjoining communities encouraged trading in art, exchange of scientific data. The 10% loss of brain mass is nothing. As you saw from the quote intelligence is made up from far more than gms/ozs.

I guess we are looking at this from two different perspectives. I agree 100% that farming has been one of the most important events to push mankind forward, but since this is about meat I wanted to add that man has relied a very long time on the hunter gatherer model that enabled for a continued brain/body growth to where about 20,000 - 30,000 years ago we were actually at our largest size in both body and brain. Farming came along and did supper great things like stabilizing our food sources that allowed for a much larger population, but it was at a cost in energy. This reduced energy lead to shrinkage in both body and brain. You ever see true armor from the like the 1500 century, like 5 foot nothing.

My point is meat has always been a very important part in our diet and though we can substitute it today it doesn't take away that fact, or deny that we been meat eaters for a very very long time.

originally posted by: andy06shake
Just sat down to Turkey, Beef and Ham. And not forgetting the Pigs in Blankets.

I think you are missing a few meat food groups there, shameful...

originally posted by: TheConstruKctionofLight
I stopped pork many years ago,I have a little bacon now and again. I think there may be some wisdom as to why Muslims and Jews dont eat pork.

Pigs are very close to humans, maybe not in looks but their meat is very close to us, so I wonder if it isn't like cannibalism in eat them...

I don't think the Jew/Muslims cared about hardening of the arteries...hehe But there was a lot of sickness associated with pork that led to why they do not eat it, just like they can not put fish and meat on the same plate.

originally posted by: Son of Will

originally posted by: Vroomfondel
You can categorize life on earth with dentistry. There are creatures with sharp teeth. There are creatures with flat teeth. There are creatures with no teeth. There are creatures with both sharp and flat teeth. There is also a hierarchy referred to as the food chain.

Creatures with no teeth absorb nutrients. These creatures are food for the higher levels of no teeth creatures. Think worms and birds. Natural.

There are creatures with flat teeth. Flat teeth eat grass and leaves. Flat teeth creatures aren't particularly smart creatures. You don't have to be smart to hunt grass.

There are creatures with sharp teeth. Sharp teeth creatures eat flat teeth creatures. Sharp teeth creatures are generally smarter than flat teeth creatures because they must hunt the flat teeth creatures.

There are creatures with both sharp and flat teeth, omnivores. Omnivores eat both the sharp teeth and the flat teeth creatures as well as the plants and no teeth creatures they feed on. Omnivores are the smartest of all and reside at the top of the food chain.

Nature and evolution do not equip us with features we do not need, nor does it allow us to maintain them. We have sharp teeth. We are intended to eat the flat teeth creatures. It is natures way.

ps - because bacon

Counter argument here: www.scribd.com...

And that is all beside the point of the OP. Because you can easily thrive on an exclusively plant-based diet, this is about choice. Ethics.

Animals can suffer. Unnecessary aggression is unethical. Enslaving/slaughtering another sentient creature is unnecessary aggression. Therefore unethical. (Or just re-read the OP, it's properly elaborated there)

Your turn.

The article raises some interesting points but I think it was written with a purpose rather than observation.

The comparisons of anatomy between herbivores and omnivores/carnivores is valid, however, it does not take in to consideration that humans do not gorge themselves on chunks of raw meat as other carnivores do. We prepare our meals, cooking meats which break down complex enzymes, makes them tender and more digestible, and cut to portions easily consumed. When those characteristics are taken into consideration, the differences between carnivore anatomy and herbivore anatomy start to fall apart, with special respect to human beings.

I think there are numerous articles available, many already cited on this thread, that would argue the fact that humans "...can easily thrive on an exclusively plant-based diet."

Evolution works. It is easier, cheaper and safer to grow plants than it is to hunt/ranch meat. If meat was unnecessary after the entire duration of human life on this earth, I think we would have already phased meat out in favor of easier and, after the advent of mass agriculture, more plentiful plant life. But, we have not.

When an eagle snatches up a squirrel and starts eating it while it is still alive, there is suffering. When a wolf kills a rabbit and eats it there is suffering. One fish can swallow another fish whole and start digesting it while it is still alive. Larger plants can block the sunlight from smaller plants and larger root systems can take up all the nutrients in the soil effectively strangling the smaller plants to death. Insects constantly feed on each other.

Humans have developed a higher sense of ethics. We are not alone however when it comes to compassion. You can search any popular video posting site and see videos of predator animals catching the young of what would normally be prey and instead of killing it, they protect it and in some cases raise it as their own. Dogs have found human babies abandoned by their parents to die and cared for them until help arrived. A young child falls into a gorilla enclosure at a zoo and the adult gorillas pull the child from the moat and protect him until he can be safely removed from the enclosure. The list of such incidents is lengthy and compelling.

Aside from the basic idea of right and wrong, ethics are the result of the influence of society. There are two kinds of people. One is the kind who says, "I don't want to do this, so I wont." The other is the kind who says, "I don't want to do this, so I wont, and neither can you." Only one of them is ethical - in its purest sense.

originally posted by: Vroomfondel

And that is all beside the point of the OP. Because you can easily thrive on an exclusively plant-based diet, this is about choice. Ethics.

I'm not sure thrive is the right word, I would say more a long the lines of survive. Even today a plant-based diet takes a good amount of work, and to be honest most people I know that are on a strict no meat diet are not the healthiest looking people around and many I find to be somewhat bitter people. The ones that do it well are the ones that still eat fish, shrimp etc but man that that type of diet gets kind of old for me.

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: Vroomfondel

And that is all beside the point of the OP. Because you can easily thrive on an exclusively plant-based diet, this is about choice. Ethics.

I'm not sure thrive is the right word, I would say more a long the lines of survive. Even today a plant-based diet takes a good amount of work, and to be honest most people I know that are on a strict no meat diet are not the healthiest looking people around and many I find to be somewhat bitter people. The ones that do it well are the ones that still eat fish, shrimp etc but man that that type of diet gets kind of old for me.

Agreed. I know vegetarians and of course dedicated carnivores. The ones who seem happiest to me lately, and I did find this a bit of a surprise, are the back to basics paleo diet people. Skip all the gmo's, heavily processed meats, sugar substitutes, and just eat real food. Makes sense to me...

originally posted by: Vroomfondel
The ones who seem happiest to me lately, and I did find this a bit of a surprise, are the back to basics paleo diet people. Skip all the gmo's, heavily processed meats, sugar substitutes, and just eat real food. Makes sense to me...

I agree 100%, I truly think there are some brain chemistry affected by diet that is going on here too. We are not on an extreme end but my family puts a lot of effort into all round healthy type diet without process foods and a well mix of meats like pasture grazed beef, chicken, pork and salmon/steelhead here in the North West. The thing that I find is I can only eat so much fish or chicken or beef etc. Just as I love salads, but I do not want to eat it 3 times a day...hehe

originally posted by: SeaWorthy
Animals get B12 by eating food and soil contaminated with these microorganisms.

Herbivorous animals have a symbiotic relationship with the bacteria living in their rumens or have to eat feces that has the bacteria.

a reply to: SeaWorthy

Sorry, that has nothing to do with your dopey claim that humans once got B12 from 'soil and water'.