Eating Meat is Unethical

a reply to: NewzNose

I cannot eat bacon. Can't stand the taste or the smell. Sausage also. Happened overnite, several months ago, and no clue as to why. I love pork chops,

Sulphites ( preservatives ) used in processed meat

fedup.com.au...

a reply to: NautPsycho

Eat meat with no spices and tell me if it's still yummy

Of course its still yummy! All you've shown is that you dont know how to cook OR your palate is jaded with overuse of spice or herbs

a reply to: Xtrozero

The good side is it established a controllable and regulated food source, but in the last 20,000 years, about the time farming started, we have lost about a tennis ball size of brain, in another 20,000 years our brains will be smaller than Homo Erectus,

You have something other than your opinion to back that up?


www.khanacademy.org...

.0—The Rise of Agriculture
All living things need energy to survive. For a long time, humans met their energy needs almost exclusively by eating the food they foraged in their local environment. In other words, humans were completely dependent on the plants and animals that nature provided. The invention of farming about 12,000 years ago gave humans access to vast new food and energy resources, which helped to dramatically transform the way humans lived. Among other things, farming made possible dramatic population growth, and it allowed humans to settle in larger, denser communities than a foraging lifestyle could support. These larger and denser communities eventually led to the development of cities and civilizations, which accelerated collective learning and innovation

neuroscience.stanford.edu...

Furthermore, a closer look at the results of the gene-association study reveal that most of the relationship the authors found between HMGA2 gene variations and cranial size could be accounted for by the fact that the gene is also correlated with human height. Correlational studies have only established a weak to moderate linear relationship between brain size an intelligence, which is enough fuel to ensure that the brain size and intelligence hypothesis doesn’t burn out, but does little to explain the true basis of human cognitive capacity.

Luckily, there is much more to a brain when you look at it under a microscope, and most neuroscientists now believe that the complexity of cellular and molecular organization of neural connections, or synapses, is what truly determines a brain’s computational capacity.

originally posted by: TheConstruKctionofLight
a reply to: NautPsycho

Eat meat with no spices and tell me if it's still yummy

Of course its still yummy! All you've shown is that you dont know how to cook OR your palate is jaded with overuse of spice or herbs

Vegans always use that one, they think it's an instant win, and I have no idea why? I rarely if ever spice the meat I cook, because I like the taste of meat as it is, and it never disappoints!

The skin of a roasted chicken? bloody divine!!! no spice needed

originally posted by: TheConstruKctionofLight

You have something other than your opinion to back that up?

Ya I kind of quoted a Dr. Marta Lahr from Cambridge University article about it in a few posts later, BTW you saying it is wrong... pretty damn common info if you look. My point was that since farming our brain has been shrinking period. I'm not sure your point in your quotes about how great farming has been to man though. The second one suggests that as our fuel intact was reduced to farming the body compensated for a reduction in brain size to reduce the needed energy for a larger brain.

a reply to: Xtrozero

But wait!

Just as I begin to absorb these varying interpretations, I am hit with the next surprise in our human evolutionary narrative: After a long, slow retrenchment, human brain size appears to be rising again. When anthropologist Richard Jantz of the University of Tennessee measured the craniums of Americans of European and African descent from colonial times up to the late 20th century, he found that brain volume was once again moving upward.

discovermagazine.com...

a reply to: Teikiatsu

Well I don't know about my shrinking brain...

Tonight for our Christmas eve meal we had Smoked Walleye. Which I caught and learned how to smoke. Did alot of reading on smoking and I think I found just the right recipe to make it great.

We also had Venison sausage, which a friend of ours killed and processed. He too did alot of reading on the right way to process the meat into a wonderful tasting niblet.

As a whole we don't really eat alot of meat. But tonight I feel very smart. My brain is working at full strength. Add alittle holiday Nog with that and I feel like the smartest person ever. LOL!!!!

Merry Christmas everyone.

a reply to: TheConstruKctionofLight

Bacon and sausage are the only meats I suddenly caanot stand. I doubt they are the only 2 processed meats in existance.

originally posted by: Son of Will

originally posted by: namelesss

originally posted by: Son of Will
You have completely confused yourself with that hodgepodge of thoughts.

Well, gee, you have my attention.
Please, go ahead and educate me about 'my' thoughts, that have 'me' so confused! *__-

You make so many mistakes,

Great! Bring 'em on!

but let me address one glaring one:

Is it not a bit premature to cry 'mistakes' without the gab to validate your aspersions?
Or is your unsupported claims merely meant to 'poison the water'?

You can't respect an animal by killing and eating it.

That is called a strawman fallacy. You are manufacturing an argument over something that I never said!
I do not even use the term 'respect', nor did I, and you are attempting to use your strawman to somehow prove my error in your manufactured 'target/strawman'?
I am beginning to smell the symptoms of a 'belief infection'; first, out come the 'straw-men', irrational, fallacious, then the ad-hominem (against the person rather than the topic) attacks...

That's psychopathic.

... And BOOM goes the 'ad-hom' dynamite! *__-

Try pulling that ridiculous logic with a sentient creature who can speak for itself, like a slave in the 1700s.

The only 'ridiculous/fallacious attempt at logic' seems to be yours.
Typical symptomatic response when egoic imaginary 'beliefs' feel threatened.

Anyway, when you have something of value to offer in a valid and rational refutation of what I offer, please feel free and I will respond.
If not, perhaps asking for elucidation, and attempting to understand, might be the wiser path, before a reactive emotional response.
Perhaps it was not 'I' who was confused after all?

"We do not see the world as it is, we see it as we are!" *__-

Here's the problem that you apparently don't see.

Gee, I'm all ears...

Animals are sentient creatures. Humans are animals too.

ALL animals? Hardly.

In my OP I made the statement:

"... because you don't need meat for survival,

As true as that is, we are here to make such delicate unnatural 'choices' BECAUSE we are omnivorous!
It is our wide and varied diet that has been quite instrumental in getting Here!
You can just eat figs for all I care, we are still omnivorous creatures.


and because you know that causing suffering to others is wrong
No, sorry, I do no Know any such thing!
First, I do not judge Right and Wrong/Evil!
I certainly 'caused' suffering to my children when I had them vaccinated!
Would emotional judgmental you call that 'wrong'?

(it is literally hardwired into your brain in a form you call Empathy),

And again you are just making vain assertions and assumptions with no evidence or logic.
I say that you have no clue what 'Empathy' is!

True, unconditional Love is ALWAYS recognized by It's unconditional Virtues; Compassion, Empathy, Sympathy, Gratitude, Humility, Charity (charity is never taking more than your share of anything, ever!), Honesty, Happiness, Faith...
ALWAYS!

then it naturally follows that killing a sentient creature for its flesh is wrong,

It 'naturally follows' your judgmental vain and emotional groundless assertions, perhaps...
Obviously, you cannot be a Xtian!

because it clearly constitutes unnecessary aggression. It is fundamentally unethical. Since eating meat directly endorses this unnecessary aggression, that is also unethical. "

Such spurious and irrational judgments and assumptions are just flowing like water, with no direction or boundary.
And no real logic or understanding!
This seem to be ALL a desperate attempt to validate your bias/beliefs!

So I ask again: how exactly can you consider it ethical to kill another creature -

And once again, I will offer you an example of 'ethics', just so you can ignore it again (yes, I can be a fool);

"Do NOT do to 'others' what you don't want done to you!"
(EVERYTHING in the Universe (and everyone), is 'others', and 'others' Is Self!)!

which is robbing it of life -

More emotional claptrap! An appeal to emotion, which you seem to use quite often, is considered a logical fallacy!

try to comprehend this, please -for no reason except the two caveats in my OP?

Sorry, but as I seem to have the ability for original critical thought (philosophy) I do not need to just "for no reason except the two caveats in (your) OP"!

"The great snare of thought is the uncritical acceptance of irrational assumptions!" - Will Durant

And please don't get so emotional. I didn't call you a psychopath.

Cut the crap, son! There was nothing emotional in my response!
I simply called your fallacy what it was.
"We don't see the world as it is, we see it as we are!"
Deal with the truth for a change!

I said the reasoning you used was psychopathic, and I meant that in a clinical, dictionary fashion. I.e. lacking the capacity for empathy.

And again your ignorance speaks loudly!

And besides, what hypocrite will draw some arbitrary line between the killing and consumption of an animal and the killing and consumption of a carrot?
Other than your personal comfort zone, and biased irrational beliefs?
Only if it looks like you it lives??

I do apologize for coming off harsh. I haven't slept much lately.

Let it out, baby, I'll play by your rules...
I see no difference (nor does scripture or intellect) between consuming a carrot or a cow.
But I have no unnatural personal 'agenda/beliefs' to support!

originally posted by: NautPsycho
Eat meat with no spices and tell me if it's still yummy. In its natural state it's foul # to the tongue.

I guess there's something wrong with my taste buds then, because I have enjoyed a huge variety of animal muscles with no seasonings. I also like many of them with seasonings, but there are several i wouldn't dare taint with other flavors.

a reply to: artistpoet

So what are people eating for XMAS ?

Roasted whole filet mignon coated by a ton of bacon.
Mushroom cream sauce.
Red wine.

I Just ate a whitetail deer venison roast for Christmas eve.
It cooked all day in a crock pot with garlic, onions,carrots and red potatoes.

Best roast ever.
Not bad for a first time attempt.

Eating meat is unethical?

Well, welcome to the wonderful world of omnivorous .
It is what nature intended you to do.

If you wish to change that,
more power to ya,
but that roast was awesome!

a reply to: Son of Will

So, if I just eat Kobe beef which has been raised "ethically", whatever that means, and just dies of old age and being over massaged, then I'm OK?

What if I only eat salmon once they spawn and die, is that OK or do I just have to let them rot?

originally posted by: Teikiatsu
a reply to: Xtrozero

But wait!

Just as I begin to absorb these varying interpretations, I am hit with the next surprise in our human evolutionary narrative: After a long, slow retrenchment, human brain size appears to be rising again. When anthropologist Richard Jantz of the University of Tennessee measured the craniums of Americans of European and African descent from colonial times up to the late 20th century, he found that brain volume was once again moving upward.

We are back to the 16oz steaks, protein shakes and 10,000 other calories per day. Maybe we are good now...lol

If you drop a Lobster in boiling water then go take a piss and it screams is there sound?

originally posted by: Blaine91555

originally posted by: Asktheanimals
I think hunters have more respect and empathy for animals than your average vegan.
They participate in the circle of life and are grateful for the animal that gives them sustenance.
They intimately know how animals live, what they eat, where they sleep and where they fit in the grand scheme of life.
I despise factory farming for it's cruelty make no mistake.
We take supermarket meat for granted and care nothing for the life it was taken from.
Every disconnect from nature that becomes routine distances us further from the source of life and the creator.
Same goes for farmed vegetables really - those you grown at home keep us connected to our Earth.

You should include most ranchers and farmers in with the hunters. Having been raised around farms and ranches, I know for a fact that livestock is treated like pampered pets by nearly all of them. Of course there are bad people in any group, but livestock is not abused in any way in nearly all cases. They are so valuable, they get great medical care, the best food and treated well to guarantee a great product.

You make a great point about most hunters, the trophy hunters excluded. Since in my younger days, the meat I took hunting was an important part of my income, I was disgusted with the trophy hunting by people who did not need the meat and hunted only for the mount on the wall. I've ran across carcasses discarded by those people while hunting and it pissed me off to no end, knowing most of us needed the meat.

This in no way even begins to address the point I made in the OP.

1) Subjugating an animal is also equally unethical. Since it is not necessary to do so, and you're basically stealing the life of another creature, that is simply wrong. It doesn't matter if you pamper the animals - you shouldn't have them in the first place. (Pets are an interesting concept here, since it is similar - but I would argue that dogs and cats evolved with humans for at least the last 12,000 years, and so have developed a symbiotic relationship with us.)

It's basically slavery. You can raise a slave since birth to "enjoy" his lifestyle, but that doesn't make it any less disgusting and unethical.

2) And of course, you can't claim to be respectful of another creature and then slaughter it. Since it was unnecessary, that makes it a choice - you CHOOSE to steal another sentient creature's life. You may think they are inferior, but does that make them less worthy of life?

Our species is way too creative and versatile to be stuck in such ancient and long-obsolete mindsets. We simply don't need to abuse animals anymore.

originally posted by: Blaine91555
a reply to: NautPsycho

We are in fact omnivores. To say otherwise is very dishonest.

Even a bovine must eat the insects mixed in with their feed to get the B vitamins they need to survive. That is also a fact.

You can make an argument for health reasons and that is reasonable. To say eating our natural diet is unethical though is unethical. Forcing your lifestyle on others or trying to deceive them with false claims is unethical.

There is indeed a lot of disinformation floating around. For example, everything you said is wrong.

1) Livestock get most of their B vitamins from fortified grains.
2) Humans get theirs from HUNDREDS of sources. It's a non-issue.
www.onegreenplanet.org...

And while we are omnivores, you apparently got the basic definition wrong. It doesn't mean that we REQUIRE nutrition from a diverse range of sources, but rather that we CAN obtain nutrition from many diverse sources.

If you have any other dietary concerns I'd gladly address them. But the existence of millions of successful long-term vegans already disproves any notion of nutritional inadequacy.

So, back to the OP. Does it make more sense now?

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: Son of Will
This may sound outrageous, but in reality it is deceptively simple. All I need is one paragraph to make a 100% iron-tight argument.

All I need is one sentence to counter all of that.

Meat is delicious.

Yeah but lots of things taste delicous. I hear humans taste like pork, according to a cannibal in prison who were interviewed on the subject.

And deep-frying? That's just unfair levels of taste. I could take cardboard, deep fry it in batter, and that would probably taste amazing.

originally posted by: SeaWorthy

originally posted by: Blaine91555
a reply to: Son of Will

So you made the choice to stop eating your natural diet and exclude meat. Now you want everyone else to do the same.

OK. Now how do we get other omnivores and carnivores to also stop eating their natural diets?

How do we replace the calories, nutrients and manage to feed the world after removing meat? Let people starve for "ethical" reasons. Have you thought this through?

What is natural for us changes when we EVOLVE.
Any diet that feeds a person and keeps them healthy is natural enough. To top that people live longer healthier lives as vegetarians/vegans. The world its nature, animals, people are more important than our taste buds.

You are not well informed if the world does not stop eating meat people will starve and have not enough water. Please read the science and not the greedy who have a stake in the flesh selling industries.

Is Meat Sustainable?
M E A T
Now, It’s Not Personal!
But like it or not, meat-eating is becoming a problem for everyone on the planet.
www.worldwatch.org...

It is one of the great failings of the environmental movement—and successes of the food lobby—that most people have no idea that bacon cheeseburgers have anything to do with starving babies, or climate change. Meat production is incredibly energy intensive.

science.time.com...

As the world's population balloons to 9 billion by 2050, based on current agricultural practices, the global food system may not be able to meet the demands of an increasingly affluent and urban population.
Yet shifting crops away from animal feed and biofuels to growing food exclusively for human consumption could increase global calorie availability by as much as 70 percent, according to a study from researchers at the University of Minnesota, St. Paul.

www.scientificamerican.com...

106 gallons of water goes into making just one ounce of beef

Producing 1 kg of animal protein requires about 100 times more water than producing 1 kg of grain protein

ajcn.nutrition.org...

That's yet another fantastic reason for going vegan. But it's such a large issue that a separate thread should be devoted to the concept, IMO. It's a strong enough (and well-documented enough) argument that it can stand on its own.

no one in life can be perfect. do right as much as you can but dont stress if you dont stick to something 100%