Loss of Christianity induced morality is destroying America

originally posted by: Tangerine

I suppose it's entirely possible, even likely, that the Abrahamic religions will end the reign of humans on earth by destroying most of us. That will certainly be the end of religion.

And the end of man as well.
As it once was, so it always shall be :/

originally posted by: Tangerine

Religion certainly can't provide that, either.

On the contrary, religion is the only thing that has consistently fulfilled humanity's desire for transcendent truth.
Philosophy and religion are the only two disciplines that search for such truths, and philosophy today seems too abstract for most individuals to be interested in.

originally posted by: StalkerSolent

originally posted by: Tangerine

Religion certainly can't provide that, either.

On the contrary, religion is the only thing that has consistently fulfilled humanity's desire for transcendent truth.
Philosophy and religion are the only two disciplines that search for such truths, and philosophy today seems too abstract for most individuals to be interested in.

I think you mean spirituality. Religion is the performance of rituals on behalf of or in obeyance to a supernatural deity.

I think you mean spirituality. Religion is the performance of rituals on behalf of or in obeyance to a supernatural deity.

Split the hairs however you like. (My dictionary thinks spirituality pertains to religious belief, for what it's worth.) Nor is religion defined so narrowly, (religion true and undefiled is this: taking care of widows and orphans in their distress) but even in your conception, spirituality invariably gives way to religion because of mankind's primal delusion or wisdom of guilt. People condemn religions because they require ritual, but the heart of man desires ritual because he feels the need to assuage his guilty conscience. The question is not whether religious beliefs are shackles that govern people, but why people continually shackle themselves.

a reply to: nwtrucker

I've been to three churches- methodist- protestant- and baptist
they have all taught that the man should have the final say in all things
the doctrine has been watered down in the past few decades but it is still taught
men are supposed to love their wives as themselves (never mind that many men don't really love themselves that much!!)
and women are to obey their husbands IN ALL THINGS. and never is much spoken about what should be down when the husband is in far left field and demanding something that is harmful to himself or her..
and well I've read the bible through many times and got to tell ya something I found myself wondering if salvation was even really open to women unless of course their husbands allow them to accept it!

you do realized that birth control is used by married women also I am sure you do! And well some married women also chose to have abortions for various reasons. And I really don't believe that birth control is available to anyone who desires it free of charge! Yes their are state run programs that attempts to ensure that it is but well there not one state program out there that doesn't leave people out in the cold when they fall through the cracks.

I just find it perplexing when people come out with this idea that if women don't want kids they should abstain from sex while also trying to promote the christian beliefs. Since those beliefs kind of attempt to remove any real power for her to say no to her husband ON ANYTHING including sex.

may I suggest that you actually read the bible so you know more about the beliefs you are claiming we should all jump on board hoping to save a country that has been unredeamable since bush 2 left office!

a reply to: StalkerSolent

Our governments may not be perfect, and may never be perfect. But at the very least, government, in its highest function, purports to be "by the people and for the people" and represent their best interests. We have never truly achieved such a government, but at least we have hope in ourselves.

Religions have also let us down. At least with human based governing, no one can assume some kind of divine supremacy and wrap their ideology in other worldly authority that no one can question.

The only constant we have is change. Yes, humanity is on the brink of massive change. We have all the tools to feed the world and NOT exploit the planet. We could thrive, if our priorities weren't out of whack. We just don't have the agreement and/or the permission from the Powers That Be, who are holding onto a broken system with everything they've got.

This too shall end. That doesn't mean the world will end, Just change, one way or the other, for good or for bad. I have hope in mankind. You have hope in an unseen celestial influence and intervention.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: StalkerSolent

Our governments may not be perfect, and may never be perfect. But at the very least, government, in its highest function, purports to be "by the people and for the people" and represent their best interests. We have never truly achieved such a government, but at least we have hope in ourselves.

Government in its highest function is still the use of coercive force to impose its will on other people. And "at least we have hope in ourselves" sounds pretty lame compared to "at least we have hope in an immortal being(s) possessed of great power and wisdom." Is it really so absurd, even in your view, to reject the impossible in favor of the improbable?

Religions have also let us down. At least with human based governing, no one can assume some kind of divine supremacy and wrap their ideology in other worldly authority that no one can question.

Gee, those religions! Too bad no one has ever questioned their authority over the years.
I'm really glad civil governments have never tried to punish those who questioned their authority. That would be terrible.

The only constant we have is change. Yes, humanity is on the brink of massive change. We have all the tools to feed the world and NOT exploit the planet. We could thrive, if our priorities weren't out of whack. We just don't have the agreement and/or the permission from the Powers That Be, who are holding onto a broken system with everything they've got.

If the only constant humanity has is change, then nothing changes.

This too shall end. That doesn't mean the world will end, Just change, one way or the other, for good or for bad. I have hope in mankind. You have hope in an unseen celestial influence and intervention.

I don't recall saying I had such a hope. I've merely been describing the reality, not proscribing morality.

But I will say this: if the only hope you have to offer people is faith in humanity, it's no wonder people hope in an unseen celestial intervention.

a reply to: StalkerSolent

We KNOW what human's are capable of, both good and bad. We KNOW nothing of any celestial being, other than the hallucinations, musings and rantings of primitive people trying to explain what they didn't understand.

At least we know that if we place our faith in people, that they EXIST and can be called out on a secular and human level if their egos get out of hand. There will be no excuse of "God said so" accepted.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: StalkerSolent

We KNOW what human's are capable of, both good and bad. We KNOW nothing of any celestial being, other than the hallucinations, musings and rantings of primitive people trying to explain what they didn't understand.

If human beings are celestial beings of some sort, as most religions indicate, than we know quite a bit about celestial beings.

At least we know that if we place our faith in people, that they EXIST and can be called out on a secular and human level if their egos get out of hand. There will be no excuse of "God said so" accepted.

We have no such assurances. People get "called out" every day, and nothing changes. Indeed, today if someone calls me out, I can look at them and say "who are you, to judge me in my path?" There will be no consequences for my actions. Even moreso if I work for a government agency or a private corporation that is willing to shield me from my just dues. And this is in the liberal West. The East placed its faith in people as well, and it has truly yielded great fruit in places like Russia, China, and North Korea.

a reply to: StalkerSolent

If human beings are celestial beings of some sort, as most religions indicate, than we know quite a bit about celestial beings.

I believe "those" other celestial beings are none other than our own higher selves. But again, those who are truly ardent seekers of transcendence, and are sincere in their quest, will find it, with or without government and/or religion.

I think our destiny is to rise above both.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: StalkerSolent

If human beings are celestial beings of some sort, as most religions indicate, than we know quite a bit about celestial beings.

I believe "those" other celestial beings are none other than our own higher selves. But again, those who are truly ardent seekers of transcendence, and are sincere in their quest, will find it, with or without government and/or religion.

I think our destiny is to rise above both.

I'm not certain as to how belief in our transcendent selves is in any way superior to belief in a transcendent deity(s).

It certainly sounds like it would lack the social benefits provided by religion.

a reply to: StalkerSolent

Well, if the Kingdom of God is within, which I believe it is, then it's easier to understand. The only separation that lies between "us" and the "kingdom" are the walls that we ourselves have built between what's inside and what's outside.

As above so below, what's inside is also outside, the threshing floor and Jacob's Ladder......it's all metaphor for US being the architects molding our own destiny, in my opinion.

I think looking to outside forces for salvation and shunning the potential for good inside of mankind is a futile path. In my opinion, Christianity has given up on mankind, and condemned it by enforcing it's own self fulfilling prophecies.

originally posted by: StalkerSolent

I think you mean spirituality. Religion is the performance of rituals on behalf of or in obeyance to a supernatural deity.

Split the hairs however you like. (My dictionary thinks spirituality pertains to religious belief, for what it's worth.) Nor is religion defined so narrowly, (religion true and undefiled is this: taking care of widows and orphans in their distress) but even in your conception, spirituality invariably gives way to religion because of mankind's primal delusion or wisdom of guilt. People condemn religions because they require ritual, but the heart of man desires ritual because he feels the need to assuage his guilty conscience. The question is not whether religious beliefs are shackles that govern people, but why people continually shackle themselves.

No, people do not require ritual to assuage a guilty conscience. What a load of bollocks. YOUR religion focuses on condemnation and guilt. Not all religions do. You make the common mistake of thinking that the Abrahamic religions are the only ones on earth and seeing all others through that viewfinder.

People shackle themselves to religion because most people are sheep. Some of those who aren't use religion to control those who are.

originally posted by: dawnstar
a reply to: nwtrucker

I've been to three churches- methodist- protestant- and baptist
they have all taught that the man should have the final say in all things

Methodists and Baptists are protestants. Any Christian church that is not Catholic is protestant. The rest I agree with.

originally posted by: Tangerine

No, people do not require ritual to assuage a guilty conscience. What a load of bollocks. YOUR religion focuses on condemnation and guilt. Not all religions do. You make the common mistake of thinking that the Abrahamic religions are the only ones on earth and seeing all others through that viewfinder.

Which religions do not focus on cleansing one of sin or imperfection, or the bettering of oneself? None that I know of, although I am no expert. Only imperfect people want to better themselves. Without the understanding that we are imperfect, religion holds little meaning. And that understanding is tied up in guilt: the understanding that in some level we have done something immoral, the need to better ourselves. Perhaps you have a different definition of guilt, and that is fair. But humanity, as a whole, seems to have a driving need to deal with the problem of imperfection. Whether you reach it through following church dogma or of reaching an ascended state, imperfection haunts the human psyche. And any process that one undergoes to deal with this imperfection is ritual, as I'm using the word. But perhaps you define it differently.

Note well here: when I say "people" I do not mean "each individual." There will always be exceptions. People walk on two legs...unless they are crippled. People love others...unless they are psychopaths. Likewise, the great mass of people have the sense of having committed a moral offense or having made mistakes.

People shackle themselves to religion because most people are sheep. Some of those who aren't use religion to control those who are.

All men are sheep. Some think they are wise because they graze outside the fences.

originally posted by: Tangerine
Any Christian church that is not Catholic is protestant.

Unless they are Anabaptists, Eastern/Greek/Coptic/etc. Orthodox, Ethiopian Orthodox, etc...

originally posted by: StalkerSolent

originally posted by: Tangerine
Any Christian church that is not Catholic is protestant.

Unless they are Anabaptists, Eastern/Greek/Coptic/etc. Orthodox, Ethiopian Orthodox, etc...

How are Anabaptists not protestant? I'm not sure about the others but into which category do you think they fall?

a reply to: lambs to lions

I agree with you BTW.

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: StalkerSolent

originally posted by: Tangerine
Any Christian church that is not Catholic is protestant.

Unless they are Anabaptists, Eastern/Greek/Coptic/etc. Orthodox, Ethiopian Orthodox, etc...

How are Anabaptists not protestant? I'm not sure about the others but into which category do you think they fall?

Some types of Baptists claim they aren't Protestants. Something about "never under the Catholic church."
I think the others are Christians but neither Protestants nor Catholics.

a reply to: dawnstar

You can take that point, stick it under an electron microscope and magnify it to your hearts content.

In my 65 years, I have never seen a family in North America operate like that. EVER.

I guess modern Christians cherry pick their beliefs as much as I do.

There was a time when that basis probably made sense. Not now, that's for sure.

If you want to condemn Christianity on that basis. Go for it....