Loss of Christianity induced morality is destroying America

originally posted by: nwtrucker
a reply to: dawnstar

You can take that point, stick it under an electron microscope and magnify it to your hearts content.

In my 65 years, I have never seen a family in North America operate like that. EVER.

I guess modern Christians cherry pick their beliefs as much as I do.

There was a time when that basis probably made sense. Not now, that's for sure.

If you want to condemn Christianity on that basis. Go for it....

If you've never known a family in which the husband is a dictator who justifies that by citing Christianity/the Bible and a woman who is her husband's subservient doormat who justifies that by citing Christianity/the Bible, you really haven't been paying attention. Hang out with fundamentalists for awhile. You'll see plenty.

a reply to: Tangerine

I flat out don't believe you. I'm sure you've never hung out with fundamentalists in your life. I have a daughter and a grand daughter. I assure you, if anyone tried to oppress those two, they'd be dealing with me.

I'd suggest you and dawnstar spend some time addressing Honor killings amongst the Sikhs-in B.C.- and the Muslims, elsewhere with their oppression of women AND honor killings.

Rather than some archaic interpretation of Christianity.

It's pretty obvious that you look for anything possible to magnify and vent hyperbolic in your anti-religious views.

It gets no traction with me.

How about 50 shades of Grey?..... There's your modern and hugely popular degradation, for you...LOL

originally posted by: nwtrucker
a reply to: Tangerine

I flat out don't believe you. I'm sure you've never hung out with fundamentalists in your life. I have a daughter and a grand daughter. I assure you, if anyone tried to oppress those two, they'd be dealing with me.

I'd suggest you and dawnstar spend some time addressing Honor killings amongst the Sikhs-in B.C.- and the Muslims, elsewhere with their oppression of women AND honor killings.

Rather than some archaic interpretation of Christianity.

It's pretty obvious that you look for anything possible to magnify and vent hyperbolic in your anti-religious views.

It gets no traction with me.

How about 50 shades of Grey?..... There's your modern and hugely popular degradation, for you...LOL

I was raised southern baptist and what tangerine posted is absolutely preached and from my understanding is the correct interpretation of the meaning (anchient and otherwise) of the text. I spent last summer working on a political radio show ran by a black semi-conservative paster and he quoted that many times. Even saying that only the missionary sexual position is the only way thats "godly". ( I hope you kept reading because I'm about to flip the script :p)


All that said. ( growing up in central MS and everything) I have rarely if ever seen anything like that practiced. Mam'maw (grand mother) runs things down here in every house I grew up around. Including my own bible thumping kin. My mom ran things in my house, tho my parents were religious but nothing like fundies.



So I think your both strangely right on the issue of women in Christianity. Yes, it is cannon (I've heard a dozen passages that say that, thanks to my short lives radio career.) but very few people actually run their family that way.


The truth is never quite as sexy for either side as we would like lol. No, Christianity isn't still in the dark ages with women's rights......and no it's not the perfect example of human morality either.


Far earlier you pointed at the abot ion rate as proof of the moral collapse of America. I disagree because abortion isn't at all a new thing. Now we just know how. Women have been drinking random herbs to stop unwanted pregnancies since long before there were Jews. Now the stats are just tracked and most attempts are safe and sucessful. So I don't think failing to kill your kid because your shaman didn't know their stuff doesn't give you the moral high ground lol.

originally posted by: nwtrucker
a reply to: Tangerine

I flat out don't believe you. I'm sure you've never hung out with fundamentalists in your life. I have a daughter and a grand daughter. I assure you, if anyone tried to oppress those two, they'd be dealing with me.

I'd suggest you and dawnstar spend some time addressing Honor killings amongst the Sikhs-in B.C.- and the Muslims, elsewhere with their oppression of women AND honor killings.

Rather than some archaic interpretation of Christianity.

It's pretty obvious that you look for anything possible to magnify and vent hyperbolic in your anti-religious views.

It gets no traction with me.

How about 50 shades of Grey?..... There's your modern and hugely popular degradation, for you...LOL

I've known quite a few fundamentalists, male and female. I've heard the males say straight-out that God made them the head of their household and they are supposed to make all the decisions. I've heard females say straight-out that their husbands were the head of the household because God said they were and they obeyed their husbands. I suggest you read some Promise Keeper's materials.

That's not to say that the women didn't do most of the work in their homes; after all, a good God-fearing woman understands that it's her role to be a breeder and a drudge.

a reply to: nwtrucker

I flat out don't believe you. I'm sure you've never hung out with fundamentalists in your life. I have a daughter and a grand daughter. I assure you, if anyone tried to oppress those two, they'd be dealing with me.

It's ok if you don't believe us and our experiences. I was raised in a strict Christian home and my father was a pastor. And I have been around (visiting other homes). That makes me a good eyewitness.

Here's an example for a good measure (since you wont believe us):

Leadership in the Home - A Godly Man Leads

That's the title of the article.

As we saw yesterday, a husband is called to lead his wife. Though this is an unpopular statement in this day and in this culture, it is one that Christians must affirm.

“For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior” (Ephesians 5:23).

www.challies.com...

Wait a minute I think I hear banshee scream from feminists. I think I'll quit while I'm ahead even if I did nothing wrong. LOL

a reply to: nwtrucker

I attended a nice pentecostal church in texas for over 5 years!!

and I am only mentioning it here because if the dear christians were to believe their own doctrines that is preached from the pulpits of most churches I do believe they would know that preaching to a married about to be abstinant would be encouraging that women to break the commandments of god! They should be preaching the abstinance to the men!!!!

a reply to: Deaf Alien

It's interesting that you managed to turn that around and slam women. Hmmm.

originally posted by: dawnstar
a reply to: nwtrucker

I attended a nice pentecostal church in texas for over 5 years!!

and I am only mentioning it here because if the dear christians were to believe their own doctrines that is preached from the pulpits of most churches I do believe they would know that preaching to a married about to be abstinant would be encouraging that women to break the commandments of god! They should be preaching the abstinance to the men!!!!

I'm not following the point you're trying to make. Preaching abstinence to married women?

a reply to: Tangerine

how many times have you read

"Well if she doesn't want kids she shouldn't be having sex." and see how many of those saying it are promoting the christian beliefs.

there's probably just as many wives and mothers using birth control as they are free spirited young ladies who are out to have a good time!! And there is no birth control method that is 100% effective so I imagine that some of these women do conceive when their methods fail and in some of those cases they opt for abortion for various reasons that might range from they just don't want to be bothered by it to they are afraid that another pregnancy might cause them physical harm.

or "Well she should have planned better."

a baptist minister when asked just what was meant in their doctrine by:
"A wife is to submit herself graciously to the servant leadership of her husband even as the church willingly submits to the headship of Christ. She, being in the image of God as is her husband and thus equal to him, has the God-given responsibility to respect her husband and to serve as his helper in managing the household and nurturing the next generation... Children, from the moment of conception, are a blessing and heritage from the Lord. Parents are to demonstrate to their children God's pattern for marriage."

www.sbc.net...

replied something like:
Well that means that if the husband doesn't want her to hold a job then she shouldn't!"

okay so as they strive to keep her in the home (unless of course her husband wants her to work) and convince her to allow him to have the final say in everything
Just how in heaven's name can she be held responsible when those plans just don't pan out???


of course my favorite story is from yahoo message boards from long ago on one of the threads that concerned domestic violence and christianity. one of the promise keepers came on and was blasting away at the abused wives trying to convince them that if they only work harder at pleasing their husband they wouldn't be getting hit so much. One of the victims was claiming to actually be a minister's wife. I said something like well according to the bible if the husband told to wife to some to him in order for her to be obedient she would have to actually walk to him and when she knew danged well that she was certain to be beaten if she did and that well I doubt that many men would have that kind of faith or obedience themselves. So the conversation continued a few more days and then I caught one of the christian wives who were trying to convince these women that obedience was the answer say something like:
Oh my husband will be home soon!! I need to get off the forum! He doesn't want me on it!!!

This lady was on there trying to convince abused women that they should just trust in god and be obedient to their husbands and god would save their marriage! but then she couldn't even be obedient about not going onto a forum!!

ya I agree most marriages don't follow that part of the doctrine but some sure do preach it to the darnedest people!!

originally posted by: dawnstar
a reply to: Tangerine

how many times have you read

"Well if she doesn't want kids she shouldn't be having sex." and see how many of those saying it are promoting the christian beliefs.

there's probably just as many wives and mothers using birth control as they are free spirited young ladies who are out to have a good time!! And there is no birth control method that is 100% effective so I imagine that some of these women do conceive when their methods fail and in some of those cases they opt for abortion for various reasons that might range from they just don't want to be bothered by it to they are afraid that another pregnancy might cause them physical harm.

or "Well she should have planned better."

a baptist minister when asked just what was meant in their doctrine by:
"A wife is to submit herself graciously to the servant leadership of her husband even as the church willingly submits to the headship of Christ. She, being in the image of God as is her husband and thus equal to him, has the God-given responsibility to respect her husband and to serve as his helper in managing the household and nurturing the next generation... Children, from the moment of conception, are a blessing and heritage from the Lord. Parents are to demonstrate to their children God's pattern for marriage."

www.sbc.net...

replied something like:
Well that means that if the husband doesn't want her to hold a job then she shouldn't!"

okay so as they strive to keep her in the home (unless of course her husband wants her to work) and convince her to allow him to have the final say in everything
Just how in heaven's name can she be held responsible when those plans just don't pan out???


of course my favorite story is from yahoo message boards from long ago on one of the threads that concerned domestic violence and christianity. one of the promise keepers came on and was blasting away at the abused wives trying to convince them that if they only work harder at pleasing their husband they wouldn't be getting hit so much. One of the victims was claiming to actually be a minister's wife. I said something like well according to the bible if the husband told to wife to some to him in order for her to be obedient she would have to actually walk to him and when she knew danged well that she was certain to be beaten if she did and that well I doubt that many men would have that kind of faith or obedience themselves. So the conversation continued a few more days and then I caught one of the christian wives who were trying to convince these women that obedience was the answer say something like:
Oh my husband will be home soon!! I need to get off the forum! He doesn't want me on it!!!

This lady was on there trying to convince abused women that they should just trust in god and be obedient to their husbands and god would save their marriage! but then she couldn't even be obedient about not going onto a forum!!

ya I agree most marriages don't follow that part of the doctrine but some sure do preach it to the darnedest people!!

I'm as hard core of an athiest as possible, but there is some inconsistency here. You just admitted that the vast majority of Christians don't actually prActice what they preach when concerning the role of women in a family. So how can you pin thAt on the Christian community as a whole.

I argue the same point constantly with Christians over Muslim extremists.

There is no box you can put all of any group in. There is no black or white. It's all just different shades of grey...... But the kind of grey that makes a good book and movie lol! Jk.

That's like blaming the entire human race for rapists because we are genetically geared to rape, even tho only a extremely small percent of the total population would ever rape some one.



Added in edit: there are just as many women who freak out over there men being on face book or whatever site they think might lead their spouse to cheat.

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: nwtrucker
a reply to: dawnstar

You can take that point, stick it under an electron microscope and magnify it to your hearts content.

In my 65 years, I have never seen a family in North America operate like that. EVER.

I guess modern Christians cherry pick their beliefs as much as I do.

There was a time when that basis probably made sense. Not now, that's for sure.

If you want to condemn Christianity on that basis. Go for it....

If you've never known a family in which the husband is a dictator who justifies that by citing Christianity/the Bible and a woman who is her husband's subservient doormat who justifies that by citing Christianity/the Bible, you really haven't been paying attention. Hang out with fundamentalists for awhile. You'll see plenty.

Again I'm a liberal atheist who greatly enjoys pointing out the moral fallacies and contradictions of the bible, but is this actually a problem with modern practicing Christians?

Sure you can point out this or that example of a battered/dominated wife staying with her husband. However I grew up in the middle of MIssissippi (aka the most backward evangelical state in the union) and tho I agree it is cannon to dominate your wife. I have almost never seen a household where the wife wasn't the dominate person. In fact i have seen far more wives abuse there husbands (both verbally and physically) . Then husbands abuse there wives.

In modern society (espeacially the south and other red states) your a garbage human being if you strike a woman for any reason. Even if she strikes you repeatedly first. Also our society babies the woman who stays with an abuser as if it's not really her fault (she stays, not is hit). While a male in an abusive relationship is a sissy if he stays or goes.... And is abandoning his family if he leaves if there are children involved.

Almost no Christians actually practice the garbage they preach. I don't think it has much if anything to do with domestic violence. We are violent animals by nature. That's not an excuse for violence. The whole point of human civilization is denying our animal urges and doing what's best for society.

The real problem in my opinion is the fact that people stay in abusive relationships. If both sexes left a relationship the first time some one crossed the line. Evolution would breed that trait out of us within a couple generations. It's the fact people stay that's the problem. Which, I think, is worsened by the what we treat abused women.

The first time she is abused, she should be pampered and given all the help to leave the relationship we can muster. However it's the babying and extra attention we give those that stay that continues feeding into the cycle of violence. Some people only get that kind of attention by playing the DV game. Normally no one cares, but whenever they are abused they become the center of attention and people treat them like a pretty pretty princess.

Almost every move we make goes back to sex.... Not by choice it's genetic. So if the women of the world found abusive men far too discusting to bang. Men would stop doing it within a generation. But instead abusive men have zero problem getting women... Even when they know he has a history of abuse.

a reply to: Entreri06

there are just as many women who freak out over there men being on face book or whatever site they think might lead their spouse to cheat.

this kind of tells me that you didn't get the main idea that I was trying to convey with the story since the idea that the lady's husband may of not wanted her spending time on forums because he had a problem with jealousy never crossed my mind. to me it was just enough to know he didn't want her on them for whatever reason. And well that someone would be on a domestic abuse/christianity forum trying to convince the abused that god wanted them to be obedient when she couldn't even be obedient over that one simple little issue!!

I don't know maybe the lady went to bed every night and prayed for forgiveness for her transgressions and thought that was good enough. But if she had such a hard time obeying her convictions over that one trivial thing I got a feeling that she will be in bad shape as time goes on and the more important convictions are tested and there's a price to be paid for not following along with the crowd.

originally posted by: Entreri06

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: nwtrucker
a reply to: dawnstar


The real problem in my opinion is the fact that people stay in abusive relationships. If both sexes left a relationship the first time some one crossed the line. Evolution would breed that trait out of us within a couple generations. It's the fact people stay that's the problem. Which, I think, is worsened by the what we treat abused women.

The first time she is abused, she should be pampered and given all the help to leave the relationship we can muster. However it's the babying and extra attention we give those that stay that continues feeding into the cycle of violence. Some people only get that kind of attention by playing the DV game. Normally no one cares, but whenever they are abused they become the center of attention and people treat them like a pretty pretty princess.

Your post suggests some serious misunderstanding and victim blaming. It really doesn't deserve a lengthy response.

a reply to: Entreri06

Actually, I agree with your post.

The 56 million abortions isn't intended as proof of anything except for what I see it as which is a much lower esteem for human life.

I take no personal moral high-ground is agreeing with the OP. Nor do I see him doing so either . He has noted his own flaws and failings as well.

I also point out the near idiotic stance by some posters in stressing some individual point of contention in Christianity and using that point as a 'pulpit' to condemn the whole belief/ moral position or indeed the whole religion itself.

Again, your post reflects my feelings pretty well except I lack your personal experience of living in a family that stressed those morals beliefs.

I think the OP's points are self-evident.

a reply to: Tangerine

It's interesting that you managed to turn that around and slam women. Hmmm.

I think you misread my post. It's THEM slamming women, not me. I was replying to that guy who doesn't believe that there are Christian men who oppress women.

a reply to: Tangerine

Again, seeing you reside in B.C.? Is that correct?

If it is, I'd like to see any Christian fundamentalist community in that province. I'd say around Osoyoss might get close. But nothing compared to U.S. communities.

Now even if what you say is true, regarding meeting Christian Fundamentalist families, which I am skeptical of, how many of those several families actually live following that premise?

When you answer that, then how many families have you met, rough numbers will suffice, where the woman rules the roost. Then please enlighten me on what difference it makes who rules the family?

Considering the Honor killings of women that aren't that infrequent in the Sikh and Muslim communities of B.C. and my daughter and I have personally sheltered a young Sikh woman from her family and their threats why you spend your time on a point that is culturally passé and use it as some condemnation of Christian morals?

The OP didn't say or even imply perfection in those morals, merely a reduced level of personal morals in society overall as a result.

a reply to: nwtrucker

how many families have you met

It seems that you have missed or ignored my post?

I was in such family. I was raised in a strict Christian home. My father was a pastor. I've been around and met many people.

a reply to: Tangerine

Bull. I do not believe you. I believe, rather, that you do nothing but deliberately paint a picture, a legend, if you will, that has nothing to do with the current reality of the North American culture.

I have lived longer than you, Have driven multiple times through 49 states, 7 provinces and 2 territories and have seen not a single family who lives as you describe. EVER.

I have seen many women who work harder than men. My daughter is one of them. They do it out of love of family, their children and a sense of duty.

Your 'slave painting' scenario may exist somewhere out there. Every imaginable scenario does. It does not reflect the vast majority of this culture, Christian or otherwise.

Suggesting otherwise is insult to intelligence.

You wish to dump on Christianity? Do so. Whatever floats your boat....

originally posted by: Deaf Alien
a reply to: Tangerine

It's interesting that you managed to turn that around and slam women. Hmmm.

I think you misread my post. It's THEM slamming women, not me. I was replying to that guy who doesn't believe that there are Christian men who oppress women.

Yes, and you ended the post by slamming feminists. I think that it's significant that you were unaware of it.

a reply to: Tangerine

It was meant to be a joke. I guess it was a bad joke. You know how some feminists go too far? Many on ATS have joked about that. Oh never mind.

Let it be made clear... I AM NOT SLAMMING WOMEN OR FEMINISTS.

In fact I support them!