Debunking Abduction Debunkers

originally posted by: funbox
a reply to: Tangerine

same question to you too , show me the tools tangerine

funbox

I'm not the one claiming that extraterrestrials visit earth and abduct people. If one wishes to claim that is fact, one looks to science and the scientific method. Fact is the purview of science. If one prefers to call it belief, then one looks to philosophy or religion or metaphysics. I have no problem discussing the topic in any of those contexts. But the context is determined by the person positing the context. In my experience, it's a rare UFO/ET enthusiast who is willing or able to distinguish between belief and fact. They approach the subject like religious fundamentalists who expect everyone to accept their personal beliefs as fact. Not going to happen on my watch.

originally posted by: noeltrotsky
Unlike the trolls following this thread and contributing nothing of value, some of us like to contribute information and help people consider the topic of abduction.

www.kathleen-marden.com...

An interesting read from probably one of the best organizations in gathering information in this type of field. Lots of interesting points made in the report.

Perhaps you would like to summarize those points.

originally posted by: PlanetXisHERE

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: Ridhya

...
He's biased because he believes it to have one underlying cause and as Ive already shown, if a patient specifically seeks out an 'abduction specialist' that indicates that they have already made up their mind. They have the choice to go a standard psychologist. They will not ridicule the belief, because what matters in psychology, is that the patient believes it. Note - a psychiatrist may ridicule them, but that is apples and oranges.

Jacobs actually points out many things he's heard over and over from hypnosis that are NOT well versed in popular culture

This is a fallacious argument, because you are assuming that it's on the patient to know these things. They have to have a general understanding of it, but that's it. The imposition comes from the hypnotist. Jacobs clearly demonstrates a bias, considering that this is his only practice. Anything in his mind or imagination can be transferred onto the patient.

Bottom line, he is not acting professionally.

You're right, a patient who seeks out an abduction specialist has already decided that she/he has been abducted and is looking for confirmation. The so-called abduction specialist is looking for a patient to confirm his theories. That's a bad mix.

Yet that happens all the time with psychologists, psychiatrists, doctors and even lawyers with regard to other topics and seems to be acceptable, why the double standard?

Psychiatrists/psychologists are notorious for being conned by patients and for pushing their own personal theories. Medicine is also conducted by fashion in that diagnoses follow trends. However, there is hard evidence backing some medical diagnoses. Diseases exit. Legal problems exist. When you can prove that abducting extraterrestrials exist let me know. The point was simply that anyone seeking out an abduction therapist obviously believes they've been abducted. I don't understand how that's difficult to accept.

originally posted by: PlanetXisHERE
...

No, why not? As I have said, this topic would be of utmost important to mankind if true, thousands of more trivial topics have been researched, if there is an even 0.01% chance this is true, it should be investigated.

....

I absolutely agree that it should be researched, starting with the existence of extraterrestrials who may be visiting earth. But most UFO/ET/Abduction enthusiasts don't want it researched scientifically. They treat it as a freaking religion and simply want people to believe it without question and, even more dangerously, to accept belief as fact.

originally posted by: Scdfa

originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: funbox
I'm not the one claiming that alien abductions are a factual reality. Those who do can reasonably expect questions asking for details of the evidence they considered before drawing their conclusions.
We can evaluate the method of gathering evidence, or the tools used, after the details are provided by those who make the claims. So far in this thread the people making assertions have refrained from providing any supportive evidence or any details of their method used to reach their conclusions.
I on the other hand have made no assertions in this thread, so there is no requirement for me to provide any verification or supporting evidence.

You are biting off your nose to spite your face. You would have benefitted a great deal more by asking intelligent questions about what I know rather than trying to demand I prove what I know.

But you have your agenda, which is fine, just don't expect me to care. Peace.

OK, I'll ask: what do you know?

originally posted by: noeltrotsky
Too bad nobody seems to have read the Mufon study link I posted. Interesting stuff in there, for example...

'* 88% stated that their abduction memories were consciously recalled; 56% through dreams; 36% through hypnosis; 16% through other means such as flashbacks."

This shows that the bulk of memories are NOT obtained through hypnosis, thus reducing the problems that form of evidence causes for the Abduction research field.

The study link again is...
www.kathleen-marden.com...

OK, let's examine that. Ninety-two percent claim that their abduction "memories" were recalled through dreams or hypnosis. How is that "conscious" recall? Please explain.

originally posted by: Tangerine
OK, let's examine that. Ninety-two percent claim that their abduction "memories" were recalled through dreams or hypnosis. How is that "conscious" recall? Please explain.

I never said conscious recall, I said hypnosis wasn't used as often as even I thought in these cases.

originally posted by: noeltrotsky

originally posted by: Tangerine
OK, let's examine that. Ninety-two percent claim that their abduction "memories" were recalled through dreams or hypnosis. How is that "conscious" recall? Please explain.

I never said conscious recall, I said hypnosis wasn't used as often as even I thought in these cases.

Uh..this is what you posted, "'* 88% stated that their abduction memories were CONSCIOUSLY (my caps) recalled; 56% through dreams; 36% through hypnosis; 16% through other means such as flashbacks."

People can scroll back two posts and see that that's exactly what you posted.

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: funbox
a reply to: Tangerine

same question to you too , show me the tools tangerine

funbox

I'm not the one claiming that extraterrestrials visit earth and abduct people. If one wishes to claim that is fact, one looks to science and the scientific method. Fact is the purview of science. If one prefers to call it belief, then one looks to philosophy or religion or metaphysics. I have no problem discussing the topic in any of those contexts. But the context is determined by the person positing the context. In my experience, it's a rare UFO/ET enthusiast who is willing or able to distinguish between belief and fact. They approach the subject like religious fundamentalists who expect everyone to accept their personal beliefs as fact. Not going to happen on my watch.

just this bit , is the bit im interested in, see below, get me ? elaborate please , or someone

one looks to science and the scientific method

and..ide hate to turn up at some abductees doorstep with a shed load of kit and no instruction manual

*funbox engages the long listed fisherprice compendium ,and seeks out the sub section marked 'ET, box 'A' .grimacing, he looks down at the empty box and closes the compendium with a snap*

funbox

originally posted by: funbox

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: funbox
a reply to: Tangerine

same question to you too , show me the tools tangerine

funbox

I'm not the one claiming that extraterrestrials visit earth and abduct people. If one wishes to claim that is fact, one looks to science and the scientific method. Fact is the purview of science. If one prefers to call it belief, then one looks to philosophy or religion or metaphysics. I have no problem discussing the topic in any of those contexts. But the context is determined by the person positing the context. In my experience, it's a rare UFO/ET enthusiast who is willing or able to distinguish between belief and fact. They approach the subject like religious fundamentalists who expect everyone to accept their personal beliefs as fact. Not going to happen on my watch.

just this bit , is the bit im interested in, see below, get me ? elaborate please , or someone

one looks to science and the scientific method

and..ide hate to turn up at some abductees doorstep with a shed load of kit and no instruction manual

*funbox engages the long listed fisherprice compendium ,and seeks out the sub section marked 'ET, box 'A' .grimacing, he looks down at the empty box and closes the compendium with a snap*

funbox

I'm sorry but your post makes no sense.

a reply to: Tangerine

how could I obtain evidence , using the scientific method ,or psychiatric based method to prove one way or another the truth behind abduction phenomena ?

I don't think I can put it any other way

scrub it the solution was a click away
bonifide proof of alien abduction tools

funbox

originally posted by: funbox
a reply to: Tangerine

how could I obtain evidence , using the scientific method ,or psychiatric based method to prove one way or another the truth behind abduction phenomena ?

I don't think I can put it any other way

funbox

physical events require physical evidence. I am pretty sure that beings that physically abduct 10% of the population would leave physical evidence.

a reply to: ZetaRediculian

see my added link above

you was a great help though ,albeit your sweeping technique left so much to be desired

funbox

originally posted by: ZetaRediculian

originally posted by: funbox
a reply to: Tangerine

how could I obtain evidence , using the scientific method ,or psychiatric based method to prove one way or another the truth behind abduction phenomena ?

I don't think I can put it any other way

funbox

physical events require physical evidence. I am pretty sure that beings that physically abduct 10% of the population would leave physical evidence.

but joking aside and to give you a fair answer, that is the case, there has been no evidence, and non that could be suitably presented in this medium, also given the subject matter, it would be hard to formulate an approach using traditional scientific/ psychiatric techniques,to obtain evidence, mostly because of the very nature in which these abductions happen or are reported to have happened

also the abductors, if real, could be very good with the broom

funbox

a reply to: funbox

here is another article. (it is pretty much endless)
jayvay.wordpress.com...

Perhaps stunning genetic evidence confirming aliens have adulterated human heredity will be forthcoming soon. Dr. David Jacobs revealed in an interview with Jack Brewer (The UFO Trail ufotrail.blogspot.com...) he has collected and analyzed samples for such purposes. Given the potential extreme significance of such work and the premium placed on priority in awarding credit for new scientific discoveries, he should be anxious to publish detailed descriptions of each effort undertaken to acquire genetic samples, the specific analytic methods he employed and a complete accounting of all results and data. The information should also include full explanations of chain-of-custody procedures and sample integrity safeguards, quality assessments, all process controls and the precise standards employed for sample inclusion/rejection. Complete procedural details are critical because they will enable reviewers to determine which, if any, conclusions are rigorously grounded, must be considered tentative or challenged as invalid. If alien or hybrid DNA cannot be revealed despite repeated attempts, carefully documented and controlled experiments will enable scientists to confidently decide whether his ideas are or are not supported by genetic evidence.

For Dr. Jacobs, time may be running short. Clearly, since one investigator has claimed she knows some human-alien hybrids personally, he is not the sole investigator with access to potentially critical corroborating genetic samples. In addition, he is not necessarily restricted to collecting the retinue following inconveniently timed alien-perpetrated sexual assaults. He has also described subjects reporting events interpreted as evidence of missing pregnancies that were both initiated and terminated by alien intervention. While human-alien hybrid progeny are said to be spirited away, these missing pregnancy victims are known to him. Because cells from the developing baby may remain alive in the mother for decades (M. Barinaga, “Cells Exchanged During Pregnancy Live On,’ Science, 21 June 2002 [296:2169-2172]), these persons represent readily localizable subjects potentially harboring the direct genetic evidence of the nefarious alien manipulation of human genetics. But again, Dr. Jacobs faces potential competition when it comes to securing the first genetic proof of alien-induced missing pregnancies. The investigator/subject reporting she was used by aliens as a ‘breeder’ (Future Theater, 18 May 2013, www.futuretheater.com...) would both be rather easy to find and literally full of it.

a reply to: ZetaRediculian

and still nothing from him of his harvest time expeditions? a blind alley indeed, irrespective of his attempts at d.n.a harvesting, almost grasping at straws in my eyes, nevertheless an attempt towards,, what else has the scientific community done to help researches, kit themselves in detection and collection?

I had a thought about using the dreaded implant, kitted with g.p.s and a clock which was synchronised with a twin , also both containing tamper devices. then implanted into a small control group .with the rest implanted into the abductees *repeaters*

surely some clever scientist could invent that and see what happens..

hmmm but if Aliens have the ability to control time and physical existence .. maybe all for naught.

funbox

originally posted by: greatfriendbadfoe
As Seth Shostek (oor however it is spelt) says, where's the alien ship ash tray or cigarette lighter? I suppose it would be pretty cool if there were such things but where is the solid evidence. Not just circumstantial guff. Primitives used to need god to explain away amazing scientific stuff and now we have the new age primitives needing UFOs to explain away the scientific stuff that is still to be explained.
a reply to: anarchychaos56

Let's see, you actually misspelled the word "spelled". Spelt, you write.

Which is fine by me, but then you call us "new age primitives" for finding the evidence supports alien contact?

Oh, irony, where is thy sting...

a reply to: funbox

of course it could be proved , it is just unlikely. If alien abduction happened to be cought on security cameras along with enough witness verification... of course they aliens arent incompetent so that makes it harder.

I personally lead towards the abductions as being real, and the main reason we arent sure, like so many of society's problems is apathy. Like the US debt, there is no reason for a country to let that happen, but in the end, the populace doesnt really care, or it wouldnt happen.

I was in another thread about Roswell and was mentioning other cases that are much better to look at even though Roswell is a classic case. I mentioned the Belgium wave as a really good alternative, BUT because some fool out there decided to hoax a picture, most skeptics dismiss the case out of hand. Why? imo, it is apathy, they dont really care, the subject is just mildly interesting and unless there are easy to digest photos, they arent going to look at it any further.

Cattle mutilations are a fact, and have been happening for a long time. Why dont we know for certain what is causing them? Apathy ...

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: funbox
a reply to: Tangerine

same question to you too , show me the tools tangerine

funbox

I'm not the one claiming that extraterrestrials visit earth and abduct people. If one wishes to claim that is fact, one looks to science and the scientific method. Fact is the purview of science. If one prefers to call it belief, then one looks to philosophy or religion or metaphysics. I have no problem discussing the topic in any of those contexts. But the context is determined by the person positing the context. In my experience, it's a rare UFO/ET enthusiast who is willing or able to distinguish between belief and fact. They approach the subject like religious fundamentalists who expect everyone to accept their personal beliefs as fact. Not going to happen on my watch.

Science has failed you. Your faith is endearing, but unfounded.

Science hasn't touched the issue for fear of losing funding, academic status, grant money, and losing their government contracts. Is that not the case? Science has given you seventy years of not investigating.

If you're waiting for science to inform you about the reality of UFOs, you will wait a long, long time. Oh, wait, you already have!

You should be nicer to us, pardner. We're all you got.