Debunking Abduction Debunkers

a reply to: Blue Shift

The problem is what type of evidence, if it does exist, would you accept? You see the problem, most skeptics say they want to personally meet an alien and see the craft and possibility ride in the craft. Yet, this is nearly impossible, so we have to consider the best indirect evidence.

The abduction phenomena is testable, most abductees report that they are abducted repeatedly. Hence, if you monitor a sufficiently large number of well-vetted potential abductees, then eventually you will be able to detect when and where they are abducted. With sufficient well-calibrated and well-functioning equipment monitoring the abductees eventually one day you will get some good repeatable data of possible ET abductions.

The basis of science is both analytical and synthetic, with priority given to well designed and interpreted empirical data.

a reply to: Scdfa

I would say that the secret government is working hard to harass and intimidate anyone who even dares to question the status quo with regard to ETs.

originally posted by: deloprator20000
a reply to: Scdfa

I would say that the secret government is working hard to harass and intimidate anyone who even dares to question the status quo with regard to ETs.

Thank you for your post. star.

originally posted by: Scdfa

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: funbox
a reply to: Tangerine

same question to you too , show me the tools tangerine

funbox

I'm not the one claiming that extraterrestrials visit earth and abduct people. If one wishes to claim that is fact, one looks to science and the scientific method. Fact is the purview of science. If one prefers to call it belief, then one looks to philosophy or religion or metaphysics. I have no problem discussing the topic in any of those contexts. But the context is determined by the person positing the context. In my experience, it's a rare UFO/ET enthusiast who is willing or able to distinguish between belief and fact. They approach the subject like religious fundamentalists who expect everyone to accept their personal beliefs as fact. Not going to happen on my watch.

Science has failed you. Your faith is endearing, but unfounded.

Science hasn't touched the issue for fear of losing funding, academic status, grant money, and losing their government contracts. Is that not the case? Science has given you seventy years of not investigating.

If you're waiting for science to inform you about the reality of UFOs, you will wait a long, long time. Oh, wait, you already have!

You should be nicer to us, pardner. We're all you got.

All that UFO means is unidentified flying object. It doesn't mean a craft piloted by extraterrestrials or reptoids from Area 51. Of course there are unidentified flying objects.

Find a crashed "saucer" and the body of an extraterrestrial or reptoid from Area 51 and the scientists will flock to it.

But don't expect a scientist whose career depends on grants to jump at the chance to hang out with and be associated with a bunch of con artists, delusional people, and crackpots of assorted types who drown out the relatively few rational people with a serious interest in the subject. Don't expect a reputable scientist to be willing to ignore the scientific method and declare Jimmy's videotape of his hypnosis session to be testable evidence of extraterrestrials visiting earth and stealing sperm from members of bowling teams. Don't expect a reputable scientist to stake her career on Martha's channeled communications from Zorkon that's she's written in code on 4.786 pages. Don't expect a reputable scientist to stake his career on a blob of light in a photograph that Ralph and Sheena swear is spacecraft from Orion that buzzed their house. Don't expect a reputable scientist to risk being called a government disinformation agent for not coming to the same conclusion you want him/her to reach.

originally posted by: Scdfa

originally posted by: deloprator20000
a reply to: Scdfa

I would say that the secret government is working hard to harass and intimidate anyone who even dares to question the status quo with regard to ETs.

Thank you for your post. star.

Gee, I would have thought the major complaint would be about those aliens abducting people.

originally posted by: deloprator20000
a reply to: Blue Shift

The problem is what type of evidence, if it does exist, would you accept? You see the problem, most skeptics say they want to personally meet an alien and see the craft and possibility ride in the craft. Yet, this is nearly impossible, so we have to consider the best indirect evidence.

The abduction phenomena is testable, most abductees report that they are abducted repeatedly. Hence, if you monitor a sufficiently large number of well-vetted potential abductees, then eventually you will be able to detect when and where they are abducted. With sufficient well-calibrated and well-functioning equipment monitoring the abductees eventually one day you will get some good repeatable data of possible ET abductions.

The basis of science is both analytical and synthetic, with priority given to well designed and interpreted empirical data.

No, most skeptics, at least those of my acquaintance, do not want to personally meet an alien and ride in the craft. We want testable evidence of the nature of UFOs. We want testable evidence proving claims of fact. That's really not an outrageous request.

What will you conclude if a random selection of 100 or 1,000 self-described abductees who claim they have been repeatedly abducted from their bedrooms are videotaped and attached to scientific instruments every night for a year without any evidence of abduction? That's a serious question.

originally posted by: deloprator20000
a reply to: Scdfa

I would say that the secret government is working hard to harass and intimidate anyone who even dares to question the status quo with regard to ETs.

What status quo? As far as I can tell, the government wants us to believe that extraterrestrials are visiting earth. Otherwise, the percentage of people who do believe it would be much smaller. After all, governments routinely manage to get the majority of the public to believe all sorts of rubbish including fabrications to justify war.

originally posted by: Scdfa
I never said any such thing, and for the life of me I can't understand what you are trying to say about Project Bluebook. Do you? What is it about Bluebook that "suspicious"' and what does that suspicion point to in your opinion? You insult my intelligence, but you can't even communicate your point effectively. Pathetic, you say?

Yes, it is pathetic that you think the CIA would try to cover up aliens by saying that 2% of sightings were unexplainable. Any reasonable person trying to dissuade belief would have said all cases were natural phenomena or misidentifications. Leaving room for paranoia wouldnt have been smart - unless it was deliberate, to make people believe.

If you have trouble understanding logic that's on you.

Fair call but still, where is the ashtray? I wouldn't even mind if they have the wrong spelling for APEX ash tray on the side. And I really don't care if you think one has to spell gooder than uthers to not be primitive. reply to: Scdfa

originally posted by: noeltrotsky
Too bad nobody seems to have read the Mufon study link I posted. Interesting stuff in there, for example...

'* 88% stated that their abduction memories were consciously recalled; 56% through dreams; 36% through hypnosis; 16% through other means such as flashbacks."

This shows that the bulk of memories are NOT obtained through hypnosis, thus reducing the problems that form of evidence causes for the Abduction research field.

The study link again is...
www.kathleen-marden.com...

These numbers are INCREDIBLY deceptive, as the study was only of 50 people! That's neither an appropriate population sample nor enough claims to justify believing it to be true! And they only got 24 people as a control group?! Are you freaking serious! Its not even equal.

The "study" is incredibly biased and has its conclusion set in the group headings: "Abduction Experiencer" and "Non-Abduction Experiencer". It has already determined that the events certainly happened. You can see their pre-determined conclusions:


The questions are suggestive and they require tacit acceptance of conditions:

And questions 1 and 29 are the same!!
Questions within the study were not controlled! They asked the control group different questions!!

(These questions were not on the NAE questionnaire.)

They lied about their positive percentages! They deliberately left the "no answer" category out of their calculation to skew it in their favour:


They dont consider the ALL-important aspect of correlational factors:

The fact that so many experiencers reported being abused as children should call into question the causation of their psychological trauma. See this movie for a disturbing depiction.

NONE of this is even taking into account the fact that self-reporting is so unreliable to begin with, see here for a long list of factors that skew results of self-report tests.

Scientific method is IMPERATIVE and they have thrown that out the door. This is not a valid study as it is not a controlled experiment. Not to mention, all those people that claimed to be psychic and able to control lights, should have been able to demonstrate it.

By the way, all this effort is for myself, because I assume most of you will still ignore it.

originally posted by: deloprator20000
a reply to: Blue Shift

The problem is what type of evidence, if it does exist, would you accept? You see the problem, most skeptics say they want to personally meet an alien and see the craft and possibility ride in the craft. Yet, this is nearly impossible, so we have to consider the best indirect evidence.

The abduction phenomena is testable, most abductees report that they are abducted repeatedly. Hence, if you monitor a sufficiently large number of well-vetted potential abductees, then eventually you will be able to detect when and where they are abducted. With sufficient well-calibrated and well-functioning equipment monitoring the abductees eventually one day you will get some good repeatable data of possible ET abductions.

The basis of science is both analytical and synthetic, with priority given to well designed and interpreted empirical data.

Great points. It sounds like this is being done covertly at times, but the results are not made public.

So, are they performing these in other countries as well? Because these mutilations are happening all around the world.

a reply to: Ridhya
This is why you should never click those links. I have lost hours of my life in a state of bewilderment looking at those "studies". Yes, mainstream science thinks this is a joke for a reason. And those questions look like they are ripped off from the sleep disorder survey.

originally posted by: deloprator20000
a reply to: Blue Shift


The abduction phenomena is testable, most abductees report that they are abducted repeatedly. Hence, if you monitor a sufficiently large number of well-vetted potential abductees, then eventually you will be able to detect when and where they are abducted. With sufficient well-calibrated and well-functioning equipment monitoring the abductees eventually one day you will get some good repeatable data of possible ET abductions.

The basis of science is both analytical and synthetic, with priority given to well designed and interpreted empirical data.

But there already should be enough testable data now in the form of genetic material obtained by the "breeder".
jayvay.wordpress.com...

Perhaps stunning genetic evidence confirming aliens have adulterated human heredity will be forthcoming soon. Dr. David Jacobs revealed in an interview with Jack Brewer (The UFO Trail ufotrail.blogspot.com...) he has collected and analyzed samples for such purposes. Given the potential extreme significance of such work and the premium placed on priority in awarding credit for new scientific discoveries, he should be anxious to publish detailed descriptions of each effort undertaken to acquire genetic samples, the specific analytic methods he employed and a complete accounting of all results and data. The information should also include full explanations of chain-of-custody procedures and sample integrity safeguards, quality assessments, all process controls and the precise standards employed for sample inclusion/rejection. Complete procedural details are critical because they will enable reviewers to determine which, if any, conclusions are rigorously grounded, must be considered tentative or challenged as invalid. If alien or hybrid DNA cannot be revealed despite repeated attempts, carefully documented and controlled experiments will enable scientists to confidently decide whether his ideas are or are not supported by genetic evidence.

For Dr. Jacobs, time may be running short. Clearly, since one investigator has claimed she knows some human-alien hybrids personally, he is not the sole investigator with access to potentially critical corroborating genetic samples. In addition, he is not necessarily restricted to collecting the retinue following inconveniently timed alien-perpetrated sexual assaults. He has also described subjects reporting events interpreted as evidence of missing pregnancies that were both initiated and terminated by alien intervention. While human-alien hybrid progeny are said to be spirited away, these missing pregnancy victims are known to him. Because cells from the developing baby may remain alive in the mother for decades (M. Barinaga, “Cells Exchanged During Pregnancy Live On,’ Science, 21 June 2002 [296:2169-2172]), these persons represent readily localizable subjects potentially harboring the direct genetic evidence of the nefarious alien manipulation of human genetics. But again, Dr. Jacobs faces potential competition when it comes to securing the first genetic proof of alien-induced missing pregnancies. The investigator/subject reporting she was used by aliens as a ‘breeder’ (Future Theater, 18 May 2013, www.futuretheater.com...) would both be rather easy to find and literally full of it.

originally posted by: Ridhya

The questions are suggestive and they require tacit acceptance of conditions:

[/pic]

Yes, and yes.

Does that prove I was abducted by aliens?

a reply to: draknoir2

Yes, and yes.

Does that prove I was abducted by aliens?

Not yet but just a few more follow up questions.

1. After they took you to their space ship, did they perform medical procedures? And where did they put the implants? Would you describe the implants as painful? After your visit with your podiatrist, did he happen to notice the implant behind your ear?
yes
no

a reply to: ZetaRediculian

oo ooo I have one

1. is this thread becoming circular to the point of self cannibalism yes/no

2. does this thread and its content of people need first hand experience of the abduction phenomena yes/no

3.if this thread was suddenly abducted to room 404 would anyone care? yes/no

4. would the scientific community outside of this thread create a new methodology to find out what happened to it and its occupants? yes/no

5. if that scientific community happened upon an answer would it immediately be classified? yes/no

6. on finding that answer the scientist all suddenly disappeared. would the search for them, last longer than some recent missing planes? yes/no/ maybe

funbox

a reply to: funbox

2. does this thread and its content of people need first hand experience of the abduction phenomena yes/no

yes absolutely. I'm not sure if you are implying that once someone has such an experience that they would then suddenly believe? There are quite a few people that have had sleep paralysis and have seen and experienced beings. They also understand that its sleep paralysis! I have many episodes myself but I never have seen an alien. I have seen people. I had one episode where there was a demon thing. Wait, let me regress myself...it WAS an alien and he took me on his ship and raped me. So now I am a full blown experiencer. Done.

here is another thing I notice. Everyone is quick to point out that SP is not an adequate answer to this but then proceed to describe cases that are identical to SP. They aren't all sleeping except in 99% of cases where they are. They don't all remember while under hypnosis 56% recall their abduction from dreams! So I was really abducted then because I can't tell you how many alien dreams I have had. I also fly to because I recall doing so in my dreams but lets not bring up the time I was running through the park in my underwear.

a reply to: draknoir2
My point of singling out that question was to show that the questions are skewed. This one has a conditional aspect, what if the person only has one of these events? I cant believe they didnt separate it.

Another one asks if women have had gynecological issues they believe are related to abduction, how do they know the source? Their own study showed that a third of their 9 "control group" (which it really isnt) women reported gynecological problems.

And to top it off, when you move the mouse over the questionnaire, it gives prompts to the answers! Its a suggestive test in and of itself!

Mufon Abductee Questionnaire

a reply to: Ridhya

So he was abducted?