Debunking Abduction Debunkers

originally posted by: grainofsand

originally posted by: Scdfa
It's hard to take seriously people who take an adversarial position while demanding we take the time and energy to educate them

Nope, asking for some supporting evidence/sources for what appears to be mere personal assertion based on belief is hardly adversarial. One should not make claims on an internet forum if unwilling to be questioned.

or petulantly demand "irrefutable proof or I'll never believe!"

I asked for supporting evidence, not proof, there is a difference or perhaps you are unaware of that? As far as "petulantly demand" and "I'll never believe!" goes that is your invention alone.

A word to the wise, there is reason people keep telling you to do your own research.

Yes of course, would that be because those who make bold factual assertions about aliens/UFO's do not have the confidence to share their own tenuous supporting 'evidence' when questioned?

UFO denier rule 1. Don't like the message? Ignore it, and attack the messenger.

UFO believer rule 1. Don't like the question? Make wild assertions, then refuse to provide any supportive evidence while stating "do your own research".

You are of course free to continue presenting your assertions about aliens/UFO's while keeping your 'research' secret if you wish, but if your evidence is so overwhelming I struggle to imagine why you would wish to keep it so secret from the good people of ATS.
Or perhaps it is simply the case that you've got nothing and just can't admit it. Lol.

I owe you nothing, first and foremost. There in no burden on me to tutor you, or convince you. I suggest you simply stay unconvinced, that's the conclusion you reached, right? Then what's the problem? Some of us have long since moved past debating whether UFOs are real, why don't you let us engage in a discussion of the important questions that come next? Why hound us for answers when you don't believe what we have to say? It's rather disturbing behavior, if you're content with your explanation, why be so desperate for answers from me.

I'm here for serious discussion with other people about the alien situation, which I know to be real, as do many others. I'm not here to hold the hand of people who want to fight me, then petulantly demand to be convinced.

I'm simply not sure if people who have looked at seventy years of alien contact and remain unconvinced can EVER be convinced.

When did you become my responsibility?

Sorry, I don't want that job, the hours are long and the pay is awful.

Apparently Mod's feel it's ok to insult by mischaracterizing the conversations, so mind as well...

Skeptic: Show me proof!
Believer: Go do your own research!
Skeptic: You See! No proof!
Believer: How does you being lazy prove there is no proof?
Skeptic: Still waiting for proof...
Believer: You'll be waiting a long time for your lazy self to do it.
Skeptic: Believe what you want with no evidence, but I'm still waiting for proof!
Believer: Why are you even here?
Skeptic: Your snid comments don't help people accept the proof I'm still waiting for.
Believer: I really don't care what you think.
Skeptic: Of course you say that because you have no proof.
Believer: Your a Troll!
Skeptic: Your the Troll!

Of course stupid comments like that don't help the thread along...but we face them all the time.

For people interested in abduction beyond Jacobs' work there are other credible sources as well.

www.mufon.com...
My understanding is that Mufon started a group up because the demand was so much.

www.alienresistance.org...
Another respected investigator Joe Jordan

There are lots more, many less experienced investigators but worthy of reading up on.

a reply to: Scdfa
So you have nothing to offer other than unsubstantiated personal assertion. That's cool, I shall bother you no more and dismiss your claims as being without substance as you choose not to present it to the membership of ATS.

a reply to: noeltrotsky
Lol, good for the laugh though, nice one
I actually think your representation is as accurate as mine, certainly regarding the refusal to present a shred of supporting evidence for your assertions that alien abductions are a factual reality.
As I said earlier, if you state "I believe because..." instead of "It is real because..." then I would ignore and dismiss your comments as personal opinion, but I shall continue to question you or anyone else who states their claims as fact.
That is a reasonable and logical course of action. Blind belief is not.

originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: noeltrotsky
So you have nothing except the claims made by Dr Jacobs then?
Urm, ok, I'm sure you can understand why I and others remain unconvinced by your assertions. Your standard of evidence is clearly rather low, but I'm more than happy for you to believe provided you do not present said beliefs as fact.
That is a reasonable position to hold.

We get it, you're unconvinced. That's fine, then why hound us to convince you? It's a little crazy.

a reply to: Scdfa

originally posted by: mirageman

No I asked if it was not odd that someone thought they heard aliens in their mind. Aliens who described themselves with smooth skin as "grey aliens" standing in someone's backyard. Intergalactic speed dating hey?

Now that might seem quite normal to someone who is convinced aliens exist, who abduct people and is desperately trying to prove it.

But there could well be another explanation for all of this couldn't there?

Nope. The only explanation that makes sense is that people are telling the truth.

How does one sense when a person is telling the truth on the internet?

How do we know that the whole phenomenon is not something entirely terrestrial and the 'experiencer' is not part of a strange experiment? Or perhaps they were being subjected to stimuli by nefarious means? Or of course it could be the experience is not real at all? Are you saying that any one who claims they are victims of 'alien abduction' you automatically take it as a fact?

If that's the case then I think we'll have to respectfully disagree and leave it there.

originally posted by: Ridhya

...
He's biased because he believes it to have one underlying cause and as Ive already shown, if a patient specifically seeks out an 'abduction specialist' that indicates that they have already made up their mind. They have the choice to go a standard psychologist. They will not ridicule the belief, because what matters in psychology, is that the patient believes it. Note - a psychiatrist may ridicule them, but that is apples and oranges.

Jacobs actually points out many things he's heard over and over from hypnosis that are NOT well versed in popular culture

This is a fallacious argument, because you are assuming that it's on the patient to know these things. They have to have a general understanding of it, but that's it. The imposition comes from the hypnotist. Jacobs clearly demonstrates a bias, considering that this is his only practice. Anything in his mind or imagination can be transferred onto the patient.

Bottom line, he is not acting professionally.

You're right, a patient who seeks out an abduction specialist has already decided that she/he has been abducted and is looking for confirmation. The so-called abduction specialist is looking for a patient to confirm his theories. That's a bad mix.

originally posted by: mirageman
a reply to: game over man

I was minding my own business in my backyard late at night when I felt the presence of something, like an animal crossing through the yard. So I get up to look around the yard and thats when a sudden change happened. I started receiving telepathic communications from Grey Aliens whom I could see were in my backyard, but they were covered by black shadows. There were some against the fence and some by the tree, and they were sending me mental images of what they looked like and they were just saying, "Hi we're here, there is 12 of us. We are 3 foot tall Grey Aliens with smooth skin." I would describe their skin color to look like moon-light, and that above message is all they said. I just stood there shocked. Having had ghostly encounters in my past, I knew for a fact this was not ghostly.

Do you not find it odd that a bunch of aliens would say this to you telepathically? Now of course we cannot predict the behaviour of an alien species. But if they really exist and travelled to our own planet from somewhere else. Why do you think they would be in your backyard saying that?

If we had the technology to visit other planets and materialize in someone's backyard then it's sort of the equivalent of saying "Hi we're here. We are 6 foot (choose colour of skin) aliens with neatly styled hair on our heads".

Do you know of some other aliens or something? I find it odd that you find it odd. How do you know they "travel" how do you know anything, actually?

originally posted by: mirageman
a reply to: game over man

I was minding my own business in my backyard late at night when I felt the presence of something, like an animal crossing through the yard. So I get up to look around the yard and thats when a sudden change happened. I started receiving telepathic communications from Grey Aliens whom I could see were in my backyard, but they were covered by black shadows. There were some against the fence and some by the tree, and they were sending me mental images of what they looked like and they were just saying, "Hi we're here, there is 12 of us. We are 3 foot tall Grey Aliens with smooth skin." I would describe their skin color to look like moon-light, and that above message is all they said. I just stood there shocked. Having had ghostly encounters in my past, I knew for a fact this was not ghostly.

Do you not find it odd that a bunch of aliens would say this to you telepathically? Now of course we cannot predict the behaviour of an alien species. But if they really exist and travelled to our own planet from somewhere else. Why do you think they would be in your backyard saying that?

If we had the technology to visit other planets and materialize in someone's backyard then it's sort of the equivalent of saying "Hi we're here. We are 6 foot (choose colour of skin) aliens with neatly styled hair on our heads".

I'd imagine it rather foolish to assume you know how an alien race thinks, wouldn't you agree?

originally posted by: Scdfa
We get it, you're unconvinced. That's fine, then why hound us to convince you? It's a little crazy.

How crazy? It could be argued that making assertions and refusing to provide any supporting evidence is a little crazy don't you think?
I shall continue to ask for substance to support your assertions that alien abductions are a factual reality for as long as you refuse to provide it. You make the claims, I do not.
I suggest that you have nothing other than the testimony of people who claim to have been abducted, but of course you can easily refute me by sharing your overwhelming evidence to the membership of ATS.
Until you do your claims remain just that, claims.

originally posted by: mirageman

How does one sense when a person is telling the truth on the internet?

How do we know that the whole phenomenon is not something entirely terrestrial and the 'experiencer' is not part of a strange experiment? Or perhaps they were being subjected to stimuli by nefarious means? Or of course it could be the experience is not real at all? Are you saying that any one who claims they are victims of 'alien abduction' you automatically take it as a fact?

If that's the case then I think we'll have to respectfully disagree and leave it there.

You raise an interesting question. How do we tell when someone is telling the truth? Most of us think we're adept at determining whether or not someone is lying to us, at least IRL. However, studies show that we are no better at it than chance. In other words, we could flip a coin to determine whether someone is lying or we could simply state our opinion and the chances that we would be right are the same.

originally posted by: Scdfa

originally posted by: mirageman
a reply to: game over man

I was minding my own business in my backyard late at night when I felt the presence of something, like an animal crossing through the yard. So I get up to look around the yard and thats when a sudden change happened. I started receiving telepathic communications from Grey Aliens whom I could see were in my backyard, but they were covered by black shadows. There were some against the fence and some by the tree, and they were sending me mental images of what they looked like and they were just saying, "Hi we're here, there is 12 of us. We are 3 foot tall Grey Aliens with smooth skin." I would describe their skin color to look like moon-light, and that above message is all they said. I just stood there shocked. Having had ghostly encounters in my past, I knew for a fact this was not ghostly.

Do you not find it odd that a bunch of aliens would say this to you telepathically? Now of course we cannot predict the behaviour of an alien species. But if they really exist and travelled to our own planet from somewhere else. Why do you think they would be in your backyard saying that?

If we had the technology to visit other planets and materialize in someone's backyard then it's sort of the equivalent of saying "Hi we're here. We are 6 foot (choose colour of skin) aliens with neatly styled hair on our heads".

I'd imagine it rather foolish to assume you know how an alien race thinks, wouldn't you agree?

Yes, and, minus any testable evidence, equally naive to assume that one has visited here and is abducting people.

originally posted by: Scdfa

originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: noeltrotsky
So you have nothing except the claims made by Dr Jacobs then?
Urm, ok, I'm sure you can understand why I and others remain unconvinced by your assertions. Your standard of evidence is clearly rather low, but I'm more than happy for you to believe provided you do not present said beliefs as fact.
That is a reasonable position to hold.

We get it, you're unconvinced. That's fine, then why hound us to convince you? It's a little crazy.

The person making the claim of fact (ie. alien abductions happen) has the duty of proving the positive claim. It is not the duty of the person challenging the claim to disprove it.

a reply to: grainofsand

can you supply the evidence of the tools that are used to measure and quantify this phenomena? , something substantial mind, a camera isn't cutting any mustard with me

if you can show me some, then you'll be halfway house in not needing evidence from the other person you keep asking of, who of which I cant be arsed to scroll up and see the name of ...

funbox

originally posted by: noeltrotsky

originally posted by: ZetaRediculian
...
It is true that Jacobs isn't the beginning and end of abduction research! He gets a lot of attention now because of the volume of his work and the results he is finding and putting out there. There is a good UK researcher on abduction...can't remember the name off hand thou. Saw him on Ytube awhile ago.

There are others working in altered states and making contact and such. Personally I don't see that as 'abduction' so didn't think to discuss it here.
...

Making contact with what/whom?

a reply to: game over man


If they don't travel from somewhere else they can't be aliens by definition.

I was wondering why you are convinced they are aliens, for some reason would be in your backyard and would mention the complexion of their skin and describe themselves as "grey aliens" to you?

The fact that you don't consider that situation odd says a lot. Not many people have seen little grey aliens, telepathically conveying themselves exactly as we would describe them (ie. Grey aliens) and discussing the quality of their skin.

Have you not considered any other possibility than you saw aliens?

a reply to: Tangerine

same question to you too , show me the tools tangerine

funbox

originally posted by: noeltrotsky

originally posted by: mirageman
Why do you think they would be in your backyard saying that?

Did you really just ask Why someone would say 'Hi' and describe themselves for a first meeting??? It seems incredibly normal for that to happen. That is done on Internet romances sites every minute of everyday when they make plans to meet for the first time. When greeting people for the first time, especially 'unannounced', what has been described sounds perfectly normal and even expected.

People need to be sensitive when talking to others who have had an experience and opened up about it. If you don't believe it that's fine, but I really don't like it when the challenging begins and statements like "Why would they say/do that" start. It is exactly why so few people come forward because of questions that are in fact efforts to debunk.

Thank you. I am pretty shocked at the poster's comment. Now that we're looking at my post, I remember the part of "Hi we are here" was said because the Grey Aliens know, they are some conspiracy theory, that science refuses to believe in! In addition, it actually falls in line with the whole "doctor" approach as Grey's are typically described. It's the same kind of talking that a paramedic or medical person would say to someone they are taking care of. Now the smooth skin part, I don't know why they said that, but they were saying that.

a reply to: noeltrotsky

There are others working in altered states and making contact and such. Personally I don't see that as 'abduction' so didn't think to discuss it here.

People see all types of entities after taking Dimethyltryptamine which is closely related to a variety of other neurochemicals.

It is a structural analog of serotonin and melatonin

Melatonin is sold over the counter as a sleep aid. Most abduction cases that I have looked at occur at night and usually while sleeping. Even while we are awake, Melatonin is released. it usually starts around 9 PM and increases steadily throughout the night. Interestingly most UFO sightings are around 11 pm. The chemical that causes people to see entities occurs naturally in our bodies and has been found in small amounts.

Rick Strassman did a study on the effects of this and discovered that the people who saw these entities believed them to be real in exactly the same way people that experience abductions consider their experiences to be real.

With the absence of physical evidence, the times of occurrences, the similarities of experiences and the insistence that the entities are real by experiencers, you have to consider that these are either very closely related phenomenon or the same thing. If you think that these are just hallucinations being experienced then that would be hypocritical since there is the same amount of evidence that these are real beings.

I don't see any way around the discussion. However, I am limited by the T&Cs and cant really do the discussion justice in this forum. People are free to talk about their abductions but nobody is allowed to discuss their drug experiences. I totally get that and respect that rule so its not really a complaint but it is a limitation.

I'm not so sure how dismissive Jacobs is of other areas being researched. He does seem to be highly focused, but he has stated that happened because he was hearing the same story from victims. If others say aliens are friendly and helpful that's what they are findings...Jacobs is pretty clear he doesn't see that.

Jacobs contends that John Mack was wrong and what I just described is not related to abductions. What I see is Jacobs scripting out his own scenario of abduction encounters either consciously or unconsciously.