Debunking Abduction Debunkers

originally posted by: mirageman
a reply to: noeltrotsky
So you don't consider the near 4m America abductees (clearly quoted in my post and clearly omitted in your answer), in the Roper Poll significant?
I could go through a list of all the most famous abduction stories and how most of them come from the United States.
But what's the point?

You claimed the phenomenon is happening more in America...yet provided no proof. The Roper study doesn't prove abductions are happening more in America, just what is happening in America.

a reply to: noeltrotsky

No I asked if it was not odd that someone thought they heard aliens in their mind. Aliens who described themselves with smooth skin as "grey aliens" standing in someone's backyard. Intergalactic speed dating hey?

Now that might seem quite normal to someone who is convinced aliens exist, who abduct people and is desperately trying to prove it.

But there could well be another explanation for all of this couldn't there?

a reply to: noeltrotsky
Thanks for the article.

But Psychology isn't really a Science is what I'm sure you'll say!

well, I have a degree in psychology and my ex is a psychologist so I understand what it is and what it isnt. Its a science....sort of. I wasn't good at doing at doing math and all the things real science required, so I did the easiest thing, psychology. I was taught that "psychology today" is "pop" psychology and not to trust it as a source. all myths have to start and be perpetuated someplace.

www.scientificamerican.com...

How about research papers showing the Hypnosis impacts areas of the brain involved with memory? That study 'scientific' enough for you?

that's better. I haven't read this yet but I came across an article a while ago about false memories and real memories and how brain scans couldn't show any difference. Of course that could be a false recollection so I will try and dig that up.

a reply to: noeltrotsky
Why? Because I am unconvinced by your assertions?
As I said, the thread is about debunking the debunkers, that would presumably require a believer to present some evidence to support their assertions. So far in the thread there has been no such supporting evidence presented just personal opinion presented as fact.
I paraphrase, but you effectively state "aliens exist and abduct people", I ask what evidence you have to support such a claim, then you reply "read Dr Jacobs work". I have read about it and I fail to see how his work can be taken as overwhelming evidence to support your claims.
Now, if being a troll is being one who does not blindly believe your assertions then so be it, but you have had many chances to present your evidence and curiously refuse to do so.
In fact, both your good self and Scdfa have failed repeatedly in this thread to present anything substantial to support your assertions, and instead revert to cries of 'troll' or even funnier "do your own research" when asked perfectly valid and on-topic questions.

If your 'research' or evidence was so overwhelming I would expect you to share it with the good members of ATS. The fact that you both continuously refrain from doing so speaks volumes to me and anyone else who reads this thread.

*Edit*
How about instead of whining that I'm a troll, how about sharing this paradigm shifting evidence you speak of, or report me to the mods for refusing to blindly believe your claims - I'm assuming that's your definition of a troll who needs chastising by the mods?

As some are clearly not worth the effort in this thread I'll focus my efforts on people that are seriously interested in Jacobs work and the abduction issue.

I wanted to thank the poster who shared his/her experience. It is appreciated and it makes a difference. It takes courage to do so in circumstances where people behind a keyboard can insinuate nasty things about you without violating T&C's.

a reply to: mirageman

was there any mention of the abductee being Blind ? , odd it is , but then what isn't about abduction scenarios , certainly odd by human standards and perspectives, but without any tools to properly analyse , how is any headway to be made ?,

what do the three main branches of science have to offer as is apparatus to obtain data ?
seems like psychologists have the only tool *hypnotic regression*, even though its disembodied thought construct see's it as lacking

bit of an impossible loop

circularbox

a reply to: noeltrotsky
You didnt acknowledge my extremely relevant post. You should consider it.

Also, you completely ignored this line from your own source:

This has actually led to the thorny issue of false memories and many states have even created laws regarding how hypnosis is used in legal matters. It is possible for an unethical hypnotist to insert fabricated memories into an unsuspecting person, however this does not happen spontaneously.

It happens when biased psychologists want to exact a certain outcome from their patients. There was a whole uproar years ago in the APA when it came to light that the vast majority of DID patients were centred around a couple unscrupulous psychologists.

a reply to: noeltrotsky
So you have nothing except the claims made by Dr Jacobs then?
Urm, ok, I'm sure you can understand why I and others remain unconvinced by your assertions. Your standard of evidence is clearly rather low, but I'm more than happy for you to believe provided you do not present said beliefs as fact.
That is a reasonable position to hold.

a reply to: funbox
I cant stress this enough. Hypnotic regression is not a legitimate source of data from biased researchers. They have complete control over the suggestible patient.

The only possible way it could be legitimate, would be if the patient didnt believe in aliens, the psychologist didnt, and they didnt actually impose suggestions, yet their memory depicted something they didnt understand [which outsiders would interpret as aliens].

But the reality is, they specifically go to an abduction specialist (showing that they both have a preconceived notion), and that sullies the results. This is not a controlled experiment [case].

a reply to: Ridhya

Sorry I didn't mean to ignore your post. False memories, or as Jacobs likes to term 'confabulations' is probably the CRITICAL issue in his body of work. You are right that it happens and can happen a lot. The Hypnosis session is important to document. My understanding is that Jacobs records all his hypnosis sessions for this exact reason. Of course they are confidential for the vast majority who refuse to release them publicly.

I don't discount Jacobs work simply because of false memories or fakers try to get famous. I said previously in the thread that the evidence value in Jacobs work doesn't come from one case and simply can not due to the issue with the evidence he collects. The value of Jacobs work comes in the thousands of cases he's investigated and the circumstantial evidence that research raises.

originally posted by: Ridhya
But the reality is, they specifically go to an abduction specialist (showing that they both have a preconceived notion), and that sullies the results. This is not a controlled experiment [case].

I don't accept that a researcher in a field of study can be classified as biased simply because he focuses on one subject. You need to review his research methods and listen to his hypnosis sessions to make that determination. The book Taken is where Jacobs outlines his research methods very fully.

originally posted by: Ridhya
But the reality is, they specifically go to an abduction specialist (showing that they both have a preconceived notion), and that sullies the results.

The idea of 'preconceived notion' is important because of the hypnosis process and problems with memory being real or false. Jacobs actually points out many things he's heard over and over from hypnosis that are NOT well versed in popular culture. This is one of the ways he uses to separate people who fake it or are making up memories from their TV or reading experiences.

If you read Jacobs work carefully you'll get very specific examples of this. Avoiding 'confabulation' or false memories is difficult in today's society. It is a really important aspect to his work.

a reply to: Ridhya

indeed , but that is dependant upon the individuals involved , does this completely discount regression as a tool if the variables are neutral?

then again we don't even know how hypnosis works , or really anything about it, an unknown tool used by no experts or those that comprehend it completely.. interesting


funbox

a reply to: noeltrotsky

If you read Jacobs work carefully you'll get very specific examples of this. Avoiding 'confabulation' or false memories is difficult in today's society. It is a really important aspect to his work.

Jacobs really does know how to talk about this stuff and make it seem like he is legit. Unfortunately the evidence against him is overwhelming. What he has accomplished is beyond confabulation. I am certain that if you took his work and the tapes to ANY legitimate psychology department or psychologist, they will tell you that his work is 100% confabulation. There is absolutely no question about it. Of course Jacobs will tell you differently.

originally posted by: noeltrotsky

originally posted by: Ridhya
But the reality is, they specifically go to an abduction specialist (showing that they both have a preconceived notion), and that sullies the results. This is not a controlled experiment [case].

I don't accept that a researcher in a field of study can be classified as biased simply because he focuses on one subject. You need to review his research methods and listen to his hypnosis sessions to make that determination. The book Taken is where Jacobs outlines his research methods very fully.

It is obvious from the number of responses on this thread there is very strong interest in this subject (why are so many people interested in a subject they consider "delusional"?); yet most of the arguments against the phenomenon use circular reasoning and boil down to "I don't think aliens exist; therefore abductions can't be happening". Well, that is the height of ignorance and such a fallacious argument would not be accepted for a second on any other topic, I don't know why this topic is the exception.

Very few here refuse to discuss the points outlined in the OP or any of the information in Dr. Jacobs books.

One poster brought up the controversy surrounding one of Dr. Jacobs subjects, a valid point, she asserted he used bad judgement in one case, but I have yet to examine those claims and will do so.

Anyway, against this assertion I brought up the examples of singers who have lip-synched at public performances and disappointed their fans, examples of bad judgement and possibly unethical, but these few examples do not take away from their talent or body of work, all it shows is that few humans are perfect.

Dr. Jacobs has worked with well over 100 subjects involving over 1000 cases, across all walks of life on almost every continent, one case of bad judgement does not invalidate decades of research, as much as debunkers would like.

Noeltrotsky, I suggest we engage with those who would like to discuss Dr. Jacobs findings as outlined in the OP or his books, the latter which I'm not familiar, maybe you can help me out there.

However, those that cling to their sacred cow of "abductions can't be happening because aliens don't exist", leave them to their circular reasoning, they obviously have a comfort zone and are not brave enough to leave it.

a reply to: ZetaRediculian

I don't agree...but that's ok and even healthy for society!

originally posted by: ZetaRediculian
a reply to: noeltrotsky

If you read Jacobs work carefully you'll get very specific examples of this. Avoiding 'confabulation' or false memories is difficult in today's society. It is a really important aspect to his work.

Jacobs really does know how to talk about this stuff and make it seem like he is legit. Unfortunately the evidence against him is overwhelming. What he has accomplished is beyond confabulation. I am certain that if you took his work and the tapes to ANY legitimate psychology department or psychologist, they will tell you that his work is 100% confabulation. There is absolutely no question about it. Of course Jacobs will tell you differently.

You are just spouting an opinion, your right of course, with zero evidence to back it up.



Psychology Today: Hypnosis, An underused technique

It is pretty clear that like most treatments and medicines, hypnosis works for some people and some cases and not others.

It works for some and not others, like other treatments and medicines, yet because it does not work for some people and some cases, some would like to negate it completely, yet I do not see that happening for other treatments and medicines that do not work for all people and cases, can someone please explain to me the double standard? Big pharma doesn't profit from hypnotherapy? I'm sure that has nothing to do with it.......

a reply to: PlanetXisHERE

You are right, focusing on his work and the phenomenon is more important. The people that demand proof should be looking for it themselves.

Jacobs books are some of the most shocking material that people may ever read in their life! That is no understatement! Even people who discredit him will find the material upsetting I believe. There is a reason this side of the alien phenomenon is shunned. For those that don't know his website is:
www.ufoabduction.com...
On the website he doesn't shy away from many of the more controversial findings!!! Fetal implantation, incubation chambers, meeting children you never knew about, meeting hybrids with alien eyes, training to do tasks in some unknown future....it's all there!

It takes a lot of effort to get comfortable with Jacobs research methods...let alone his findings. Hypnosis to most people is 'magical' still. I love the hypnotist shows where people are falling all over the stage under suggestion. That's the fun side of it all!

originally posted by: PlanetXisHERE
However, those that cling to their sacred cow of "abductions can't be happening because aliens don't exist", leave them to their circular reasoning, they obviously have a comfort zone and are not brave enough to leave it.

I'm happy to note that I am not one of those as described in your above quoted statement.
No circular reasoning from my perspective either. I make no claims that abductions/aliens "don't exist", just that as long as the only 'evidence' presented in the thread remains to be solely the work of Dr Jacobs and his questionable hypnosis methods I remain unconvinced.
I have read enough of Jacobs work and don't buy into it. A simple Google search will produce many academics in the field of psychology who hold the same position as myself. But of course if you wish to believe the work of one man (a professor of history) then of course that is your choice, but no reason to be anguished when others do not see it the way you do.

originally posted by: noeltrotsky
a reply to: PlanetXisHERE

You are right, focusing on his work and the phenomenon is more important. The people that demand proof should be looking for it themselves.

Jacobs books are some of the most shocking material that people may ever read in their life! That is no understatement! Even people who discredit him will find the material upsetting I believe. There is a reason this side of the alien phenomenon is shunned. For those that don't know his website is:
www.ufoabduction.com...
On the website he doesn't shy away from many of the more controversial findings!!! Fetal implantation, incubation chambers, meeting children you never knew about, meeting hybrids with alien eyes, training to do tasks in some unknown future....it's all there!

It takes a lot of effort to get comfortable with Jacobs research methods...let alone his findings. Hypnosis to most people is 'magical' still. I love the hypnotist shows where people are falling all over the stage under suggestion. That's the fun side of it all!

Thanks for the website link, I hadn't even visited it yet, the Youtube videos contain much info and are quite interesting.

Yes, the info is quite uncomfortable to contemplate, yet should we shy away from uncomfortable topics, is that healthy for society? Should we have ignored the Holocaust? Should we ignore child abuse and molestation? For you and I this is a rhetorical question, for others I'm not sure.....they would love to shut us up on this topic. Some only seem to like freedom of speech when it agrees with them.