Debunking Abduction Debunkers

a reply to: JadeStar

Millions of people in America also believe in Angels and Zombies.

You're saying there is no more evidence for alien visitation than a zombie invasion?

Is that a serious proposition? I thought you were approaching this topic from an intellectual perspective. How can you equate the evidence to support your claim?

a reply to: JackHill

Great post, well said. Star.

You're just posting the Woods side of the story...of course. Amazingly enough there is another side!

www.lindacortilecase.com...

Woods refused to provide the entire, uncut recording to help investigate her claims. Jacobs did provide the full uncut tape. The context of many things she claimed are taken way out of context. The underwear issue is exactly as I presumed because Jacobs morality has never been questioned.

Read the other side before dismissing Jacobs as a crackpot investigator leading everyone in his hypnosis.

originally posted by: noeltrotsky

originally posted by: grainofsand
I would be interested in reading any published study you are aware of, or perhaps a report by a veterinary surgeon, which supports your assertion that the mutilations are unlikely to have been carried out by humans.
Until or unless you are able to provide such a source I shall remain unconvinced.
Oh and if you come out with the tired old lines "do your own research" or "I'm not doing your research for you", as I expect you to, I shall assume you have nothing more than access to the same internet search engines as myself, but you are a believer while I remain unconvinced.

Oh you mean this exhaustive study by the National Institute for Discovery Science?
rense.com...
Found that unknown actors were conducting sampling.

Or the multiple vets in several of the following investigations...
'http://www.mufon.com/animal-mutilations/missouri-farmer-finds-third-cow-with-bizarrely-mutilated-genitals-and-missing-organsand-she-wont-rule-out-al iens-as-the-culprit'


Sorry for the long reading material...I know it's hard for people that need information served up on a plate and spoon fed to them. One day you'll stumble on this magical site called Google...

Excellent post. It's hard to take seriously people who take an adversarial position while demanding we take the time and energy to educate them, or petulantly demand "irrefutable proof or I'll never believe!"

I say great, don't.

originally posted by: noeltrotsky
a reply to: ZetaRediculian

I don't know anything more about the Woods case that you're linking to.

My understanding of Jacobs techniques in hypnosis is that the process isn't quite like 'normal' hypnosis. Over the years he has learned specific ways to help people past blocks and tricks to get imposters to slip up during examination. The ways past blocks involve skipping short periods of time and questioning resuming where it seemed the topic was headed. That can be somewhat leading however the subject should pick up where they are and deny any leading statement. It's a common method to see a fake 'memory' by sending in some leading statements and watching the hypnotee agree despite a previous contradictory memory.

My understanding is that hypnosis doesn't actually work for "recovering" memories, though it can be helpful for losing weight. What does happen is a false memory is formed with the aid of the person leading the session. Its called "confabulation" and Jacob's did not invent any "technique" to safeguard against this because you cant recover memories that you cant remember, you can only create new ones. And you don't even have to be under hypnosis.
abcnews.go.com...

Contrary to the popular notion of hypnosis as a tool to uncover "hidden" memories locked away within the recesses of the brain, there's no evidence hypnosis improves our ability to remember things that happened to us compared to non-hypnotic or regular recall. Not only is hypnosis no better than regular recall, data suggest that recall during hypnosis can actually result in the creation of more false memories than recall while not under hypnosis. www.mentalhelp.net...

a reply to: noeltrotsky

Read the other side before dismissing Jacobs as a crackpot investigator leading everyone in his hypnosis

Oh I did and his allegations, every one of them, turned out to be false. This is old news.

originally posted by: game over man
Having my own event with supposed 3 foot tall Grey ET's I can say there was absolutely no evidence of it happening unless you witnessed it. I was never taken to their "ship" nor did I ever see it in the night sky.

I was minding my own business in my backyard late at night when I felt the presence of something, like an animal crossing through the yard. So I get up to look around the yard and thats when a sudden change happened. I started receiving telepathic communications from Grey Aliens whom I could see were in my backyard, but they were covered by black shadows. There were some against the fence and some by the tree, and they were sending me mental images of what they looked like and they were just saying, "Hi we're here, there is 12 of us. We are 3 foot tall Grey Aliens with smooth skin." I would describe their skin color to look like moon-light, and that above message is all they said.

I just stood there shocked. Having had ghostly encounters in my past, I knew for a fact this was not ghostly. It absolutely did not feel ghostly at all. It was terrifying but very intriguing at the same time. I kept thinking this is the moment of truth and one of these Greys is going to walk out of their shadows, and into the light were I was standing. I also strongly felt that if I walked towards the shadows I would die of fear. So I stood there, and nothing was happening.

So I ran inside and went into my room. I hid under the covers for about 10 minutes and then built up the courage and confidence to go back outside and inspect the scene as an adult, you know not to believe in such things. So I grab a flashlight and go back outside. Lo and behold, there was nothing out there and the strange feeling was gone.

The next morning I looked around outside where the shadows were, and there was no foot prints or anything of physical evidence.

So I either had an actual encounter with Grey Aliens or I had a once in my lifetime brief moment of these serious medical conditions that debunkers claim abductees have.

I never had the experience of being onboard a ship, medical exams, scars, markings, loss of time, nightmares, etc...Or multiple encounters. IMO, these are factors that I consider for the validity of my encounter, or maybe claims that I have heard over the years.

Receiving telepathic communication was mind blowing. For a few days after I had the pleasant experience of being able to relive and feel that part of my brain that was channeling the telepathy. It's really a remarkable feeling, and it was pretty cool to feel it in your head, but 3 days after the feeling of the memory was gone. I would describe it like a muscle that you loose the feeling to, like you're paralyzed. Basically our telepathy muscle is paralyzed, and the Greys somehow are able to heal this muscle and they can un-paralyze it. Then they start communicating with you. I woke up the next day and could still feel that part of my brain, it was still active, and I could relive the memory of telepathy really well. However it slowly depleted. After 3 days I could not feel that part of my brain anymore.

I don't know why they never returned or maybe if they do abduct me or have in the past, I was heavily subdued, and have no memory whatsoever. I also feel maybe the Greys don't like bravery or anticipation. However in conclusion I have no idea what I experienced, or what others have experienced. Can we write it all off as a medical condition? I don't know.

Thank you for this post, it is a compelling account, and your attention to certain details is stunning, your description of your telepathic experience was enlightening. Valuable information, and it may add one more piece of the puzzle.

originally posted by: Scdfa
So the Air Force has been promoting UFOs for decades? With what? Project Bluebook? Project Sign? Project Grudge? How about the Condon Report, where half the scientists quit in protest when they were told the finding would be there are no UFOs? Denial after denial after denial.

But you would have us believe that when they say "no", they really mean "yes". Hope you never make that mistake on a date.

You're insinuating im a rapist now? Your desperation is showing.

It's no secret what false alien info AFOSI fed to Paul Bennewitz, literally to the point they drove him insane. What about Olavo Fontes, being told the president didnt even know this stuff, and yet they told him? Why on earth do you think Blue Book would leave ANYTHING unidentified? If it was pure disinformation, by your logic, they would have said 100% of sightings were explainable. Your lack of knowledge on this is pathetic.

originally posted by: grainofsand

originally posted by: Scdfa
The weight of cattle mutilation investigation falls heavily on an unconventional explanation. But, you may be a true believer.

I would be interested in reading any published study you are aware of, or perhaps a report by a veterinary surgeon, which supports your assertion that the mutilations are unlikely to have been carried out by humans.
Until or unless you are able to provide such a source I shall remain unconvinced.
Oh and if you come out with the tired old lines "do your own research" or "I'm not doing your research for you", as I expect you to, I shall assume you have nothing more than access to the same internet search engines as myself, but you are a believer while I remain unconvinced.

Okay, remain unconvinced. I'm fine with that. This is America, believe whatever you want.

A word to the wise, there is reason people keep telling you to do your own research.

originally posted by: ZetaRediculian
a reply to: game over man
That was a very interesting account.

Can we write it all off as a medical condition? I don't know.

I am certain that everything you described could have been produced by your own mind. I am also certain that the last thing you would want to do is go to an alien researcher and have them "recover" your memories under hypnosis. I wouldn't even consider going to one of them. Its your experience and it is really up to you what to make of it. If you are concerned about medical conditions, talk to your doctor, not the history professor at the local university doing alien research.

You're certain it could just be in his mind, are you? You're qualified to dispense psychiatric advice?

The doctor is in, 5 cents.

originally posted by: noeltrotsky
a reply to: grainofsand

You can't prove aliens by researching cut up animals...what are you expecting? You sure can prove it wasn't a natural death and wasn't a predator either...which is what has been done many times.

No idea why I even bothered with the prove it to me BS postings. I still wonder why these people troll ATS threads begging for proof or insulting people for their beliefs. People can pray every Sunday to a God with no proof whatsoever and they don't get trolled like this. Honestly, why are you wasting your clearly superior mind reading this thread? Why are you insulting people for what they believe? Why are you demanding proof from a stranger in an internet forum?

Right on the money. lol star

a reply to: noeltrotsky

Here is another good article:

Afraid for his life, Jacobs panics. To throw the wily hybrid off his trail, the good
researcher deliberately instills into the hypnotized Emma’s mind the information that
he is now an expert on this “public epidemic,” that she suffers from Multiple Personality
Disorder—not alien abductions—and she “needs to take medication for the disorder.”
www.ufoalienabductee.com...
(Note to Jacobs: Multiple psychiatric journals state that medication is not recommended
for someone with this disorder and that Multiple Personality Disorder, now known as Disassociative Identity
Disorder, is serious, chronic and the sufferer is at risk for suicidal attempts, self-injury,
violence, substance abuse, and repeated victimization by others. Good call, Doctor Practicing-Medicine-Without-a-License. Save your own skin and the patient bedamned.)

This is from Carol Rainey who was married to Budd Hopkins and was involved with a number of abduction cases.

She also makes a good point that you really don't need someone's ejaculate to test for DNA.

An object that is even touched by one of these alleged creatures
could readily be analyzed with current DNA technology. The experiencer could discreetly
pick up a glass, a hair, a spoon, anything the being contacted and bag it, then contact
a lab or their local MUFON representative. If the claim of “hybrids among us” is indeed
“a falsifiable hypothesis,” as Jacobs often states, there must be a reason it remains
simply all hot air.

www.carolrainey.com...

originally posted by: ZetaRediculian
a reply to: PlanetXisHERE

The Emma Woods story is the first relevant issue you have brought up connected to the OP. On the surface it seems like a case of bad judgement, but I would like to investigate it further.

Real researchers doing real research adhere to a code of conduct. Research is performed under supervision and standards are in place. The point is that had this been actual research, he would have been discredited. That is the standard that the real world goes by. For the totality of his work, he answered to nobody and set his own standards.

Even if it is true,

Oh, its true. I heard all the recordings and how abduction research is performed....hypnosis, over the phone.

Dr. Jacobs has a huge body of work spanning decades, have any other of his cases had this type of questionable judgement associated with it?

yes

I don't think one bad situation negates the totality of his work.

Ok. After listening to the Emma Woods recordings, ask Jacobs to provide the recordings or transcripts of all the other folks he hypnotized. He also conducted hypnosis over instant messenger.

Thing is we don't get to see his work. none of it. We have to take his word for it. I don't and the other people don't have every right not to.

UFO denier rule 1. Don't like the message? Ignore it, and attack the messenger.

Jacobs' work is extremely important and needs to be taken very seriously.

a reply to: Scdfa

You're certain it could just be in his mind, are you? You're qualified to dispense psychiatric advice?

I didn't dispense psychiatric advice. I gave him my opinion based on my own experiences and knowledge. Are you are suggesting this couldn't possibly be in his mind? Are you qualified to tell people that?

originally posted by: grainofsand

originally posted by: noeltrotsky
a reply to: grainofsand

You can't prove aliens by researching cut up animals...what are you expecting? You sure can prove it wasn't a natural death and wasn't a predator either...which is what has been done many times.

No idea why I even bothered with the prove it to me BS postings. I still wonder why these people troll ATS threads begging for proof or insulting people for their beliefs. People can pray every Sunday to a God with no proof whatsoever and they don't get trolled like this. Honestly, why are you wasting your clearly superior mind reading this thread? Why are you insulting people for what they believe? Why are you demanding proof from a stranger in an internet forum?

So let's get this straight, I posted a comment in direct reply to 'Scdfa' asking for supporting evidence regarding his/her wild claims regarding mutilations (here)
You then replied to me providing two sources which allegedly supported the mutilation/alien claims (here)
I responded with clear reasons why your links/sources did not support aliens/UFO's in any way whatsover (here)
...and now you're whining that I'm a troll, insulting people for what they believe, blah.
If you want to believe then I'm happy for you, but I remain unconvinced, certainly by the 'evidence' you presented to me which I did not ask from you in any case.

Well, grainofsand, I believe noeltrotsky spoke for me quite well.

And by all means, remain unconvinced. It's okay.

a reply to: Scdfa

UFO denier rule 1. Don't like the message? Ignore it, and attack the messenger.

Isn't that exactly what you are doing with your post?

Jacobs' work is extremely important and needs to be taken very seriously.

I completely, 100%, with every fiber in my being, completely disagree with you. I would say Stanton Friedman is way above Jacobs in all matters of importance and I don't like him very much either. Jacobs is a disaster.

originally posted by: mirageman
I have always had a real problem believing in alien abduction stories.It's also something Americans seem prone to more than any other nation on earth for some reason. Perhaps there's a clue there?

Back in the old days we had a few odd cases like the Betty and Barney Hill abduction, Travis Walton, Allagash and a few other cases where the 'victims' were allegedly taken from physical locations. There are corroborating witness statements which at least confirm others 'believed' something strange may have occurred.These cases all happened before those little grey beings had become part of the folklore as well.

Then we had "bedroom abductions" . For some reason people could be beamed aboard a craft, but the aliens often felt the need to beam through the walls of the house and stand around the victims bed before taking them elsewhere. The 'aliens' would then supposedly steal genetic material. They'd obviously also stopped off to steal some medical equipment of the time because our own modern technology now surpasses what the aliens were using back in the day. Except for the 'memory wiper' machine which is actually a bit flawed because people do actually remember stuff and hypnotism completely restores their memory.

Here we are in the 21st century when cheap camera technology is available and the reports of alien abduction are somewhat lower.

It's quite simple to set up the equipment for whilst you sleep if you really believe you are being abducted frequently during the night. But do we see many videos of this experience? Are any craft seen by astronomers, observatories, pilots or even the neighbours hovering over abductee's houses? Surely all those people claiming repeat abductions could tip off the Ufologists to stakeout their homes as well?

So how can we debunk something we can't even establish to be a real phenomenon?

The evidence (or lack of it) suggests that most of these 'alien abduction' claims are made by psychologically disturbed people, those prone to fantasy and irrational thinking, attention seekers, persons who have been led along a path by psychologists and hypnotists, and some are simply seeking to reinforce their own beliefs by convincing themselves they have been abducted.

There may of course be something else going on that isn't necessarily aliens.

Perhaps the most "disturbed people" of all (your term, I don't care for it), far worse than any alien abductee, are those that actually think they know what happened at an event better than the people who were actually present and involved in the event.

What would we call such a psychological disorder?

It's somewhere between extreme narcissism and delusions of grandeur, is it not?

originally posted by: noeltrotsky

originally posted by: ZetaRediculian
Real researchers doing real research adhere to a code of conduct. Research is performed under supervision and standards are in place. The point is that had this been actual research, he would have been discredited. That is the standard that the real world goes by. For the totality of his work, he answered to nobody and set his own standards.

How odd that a person, starting to research a whole new subject in a field shunned by scientists, not have supervision! The truth is that Jacobs has CREATED much of the standards for this research field over his years of conducting it. As there wasn't the class hypnosis 401 - abduction investigating for him to take in university.
How odd he have to resort to unconventional techniques of hypnosis with no funding support and people desperate for answers calling him and begging for anything to help them.

Oh, its true. I heard all the recordings and how abduction research is performed....hypnosis, over the phone.

That isn't the case in every case...not even by a long shot. Jacobs has investigated many cases in person. The guy is one person and can't cover an entire country in person!

Thing is we don't get to see his work. none of it. We have to take his word for it. I don't and the other people don't have every right not to.

You should read his book, 'The Threat', as it very clearly details his investigation methods. The guy is incredibly open about how he is going about investigating this difficult topic. The truth is Jacobs has invited many people to take part in many investigations, to help them conduct investigations in other places as well as to be open about what he is doing.

Well said, no official channels exist to abduction research because o one is willing to risk their funding, academic standing, grant money, let alone lose any chance of government contracts.

That leaves people like David Jacobs. Then the deniers complain he isn't official enough!

Daring to help people in a field that mainstream academic science has turned a blind eye to? Remaining steadfast despite public and professional pressure and ridicule? Those are credentials.

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: Scdfa

originally posted by: PlanetXisHERE
a reply to: anarchychaos56

Great thread, planet X, and great post!

I take offense at the term "believer". It's an inaccurate, heavily biased euphemism used primarily by those that would like to deny the reality of alien contact. They refer to anyone who has weighed the evidence, of which a large part is physical, and come to the conclusion that alien visitation is happening as a "believer"....

Let's stop there and examine the testable evidence. Please name said evidence and how it was independently scientifically tested and conclusively proved that extra-terrestrials exist, have visited earth, and have abducted people.

Science had failed you, my friend. If you're waiting for a mainstream or academic scientific acknowledgement of the alien situation, you'll wait for a long time. In fact, you already have.

Your faith in the altruism of established institutions is touching, but misguided.

a reply to: Scdfa
Unfortunately the mainstream doesn't take Ufology seriously BECAUSE of people like Jacobs and Hopkins.