Debunking Abduction Debunkers

originally posted by: ZetaRediculian
a reply to: Scdfa

So the Air Force has been promoting UFOs for decades? With what? Project Bluebook? Project Sign? Project Grudge? How about the Condon Report, where half the scientists quit in protest when they were told the finding would be there are no UFOs? Denial after denial after denial.

But you would have us believe that when they say "no", they really mean "yes". Hope you never make that mistake on a date.

Up front the deny but behind the scenes they plant the seeds. The believers do the rest. Did you watch Mirage Men yet?

Mirage men? Mirage men was the disinformation, not information about their previous disinformation.
"We are telling the truth! No wait, we admit we were lying for half a century. But now we're telling the truth! Whatever position makes you think UFOs aren't real"

let's be clear about Mirage men, which a lot of deniers rely upon heavily.

1. At the time of these sightings, they denied them, trying to get the public to believe UFOs are not real.

2. Now, with Mirage men, they claim to be responsible for the UFO interest, still trying to get people to believe that UFOs are not real.

There goal remains consistent, and is no more true now than it was then.
This should be obvious, but you chose to "believe".

a reply to: Ridhya

Why on earth do you think Blue Book would leave ANYTHING unidentified? If it was pure disinformation, by your logic, they would have said 100% of sightings were explainable. Your lack of knowledge on this is pathetic.

So you are saying that despite the fact that the chief investigator of Project Bluebook, J. Allen Hyneck, stated publicly and repeatedly that their mission was to cover-up the truth and suppress information about UFOs from the public, that Project Bluebook was not disinformation?

Is that your position? And you feel my lack of knowledge on this is pathetic? Hmm.

originally posted by: ZetaRediculian
a reply to: noeltrotsky

Here is another good article:

Afraid for his life, Jacobs panics. To throw the wily hybrid off his trail, the good
researcher deliberately instills into the hypnotized Emma’s mind the information that
he is now an expert on this “public epidemic,” that she suffers from Multiple Personality
Disorder—not alien abductions—and she “needs to take medication for the disorder.”
www.ufoalienabductee.com...
(Note to Jacobs: Multiple psychiatric journals state that medication is not recommended
for someone with this disorder and that Multiple Personality Disorder, now known as Disassociative Identity
Disorder, is serious, chronic and the sufferer is at risk for suicidal attempts, self-injury,
violence, substance abuse, and repeated victimization by others. Good call, Doctor Practicing-Medicine-Without-a-License. Save your own skin and the patient bedamned.)

This is from Carol Rainey who was married to Budd Hopkins and was involved with a number of abduction cases.

She also makes a good point that you really don't need someone's ejaculate to test for DNA.

An object that is even touched by one of these alleged creatures
could readily be analyzed with current DNA technology. The experiencer could discreetly
pick up a glass, a hair, a spoon, anything the being contacted and bag it, then contact
a lab or their local MUFON representative. If the claim of “hybrids among us” is indeed
“a falsifiable hypothesis,” as Jacobs often states, there must be a reason it remains
simply all hot air.

www.carolrainey.com...

edit on 11-1-2015 by Scdfa because: (no reason given)

originally posted by: ZetaRediculian
a reply to: Scdfa

UFO denier rule 1. Don't like the message? Ignore it, and attack the messenger.

Isn't that exactly what you are doing with your post?

Jacobs' work is extremely important and needs to be taken very seriously.

I completely, 100%, with every fiber in my being, completely disagree with you. I would say Stanton Friedman is way above Jacobs in all matters of importance and I don't like him very much either. Jacobs is a disaster.

You'll forgive me if I don't take anything you say seriously, Your opinions consistently run contrary to what I know.

a reply to: Scdfa
You accused Zeta of ad hominems and ignoring messages, when YOU did both those things to me. You keep calling everyone else closed-minded while denying the alternative theories. You keep ignoring the fact that mainstream news channels aired all the footage and even had alien specials on CNN and Fox. Every bloody cartoon had aliens in it. Movies, books, the media pushes belief in aliens. You're a believer, accept it.

There was never any doubt that Blue Book was a cover campaign, the CIA freaking admitted it. Back before everyone believed that experimental craft were flown by aliens, people suspected Soviets. Then suddenly comes out this promotion that they are extraterrestrial.

Your lack of knowledge on this is pathetic. You believe that saying 98% of cases were explainable would dissuade people? What a joke. So why on earth didnt they say 100%? They clearly left room for speculation. Yet you dont find that suspicious.

originally posted by: Scdfa
It's hard to take seriously people who take an adversarial position while demanding we take the time and energy to educate them

Nope, asking for some supporting evidence/sources for what appears to be mere personal assertion based on belief is hardly adversarial. One should not make claims on an internet forum if unwilling to be questioned.

or petulantly demand "irrefutable proof or I'll never believe!"

I asked for supporting evidence, not proof, there is a difference or perhaps you are unaware of that? As far as "petulantly demand" and "I'll never believe!" goes that is your invention alone.

A word to the wise, there is reason people keep telling you to do your own research.

Yes of course, would that be because those who make bold factual assertions about aliens/UFO's do not have the confidence to share their own tenuous supporting 'evidence' when questioned?

UFO denier rule 1. Don't like the message? Ignore it, and attack the messenger.

UFO believer rule 1. Don't like the question? Make wild assertions, then refuse to provide any supportive evidence while stating "do your own research".

You are of course free to continue presenting your assertions about aliens/UFO's while keeping your 'research' secret if you wish, but if your evidence is so overwhelming I struggle to imagine why you would wish to keep it so secret from the good people of ATS.
Or perhaps it is simply the case that you've got nothing and just can't admit it. Lol.

originally posted by: ZetaRediculian
My understanding is that hypnosis doesn't actually work for "recovering" memories, though it can be helpful for losing weight. What does happen is a false memory is formed with the aid of the person leading the session. Its called "confabulation" and Jacob's did not invent any "technique" to safeguard against this because you cant recover memories that you cant remember, you can only create new ones. And you don't even have to be under hypnosis.

So hypnosis only creates new memories, 'confabulation'? Well, I disagree completely. I've seen people remember better under hypnosis. It seems to especially help when the 'events' were surrounded by trauma, fear, or complete unknown. The subjects mind in those situations doesn't seem to form memories normally with the standard ability to remember. Before you quote studies on hypnosis understand that the extreme conditions I'm talking about are not part of the experiments.

Of course people can confabulate under hypnosis, but claiming everything remembered under hypnosis is fake, to be honest, shows you've never been involved in the process. Reading about something and doing it are very different. You should try the latter a bit more.

a reply to: noeltrotsky

originally posted by: mirageman I have always had a real problem believing in alien abduction stories.It's also something Americans seem prone to more than any other nation on earth for some reason. Perhaps there's a clue there?

any proof of that? I've read lots of reports from the UK as well as Canada myself.

Well of course not. There's no proof of any alien abductions happening in reality.

But the Roper Poll commissioned by Hopkins, Jacobs and Dr. Ron Westrum concluded that nearly 4m Americans may have been abducted.

Abductee's are about as secretive as people with top security clearances. You find that odd and evidence it's fake while I see as perfectly rationale because of the reaction they get whenever someone finds out about the experience. The vast majority know there is nothing they can do to stop it and don't want to know when it happens...thus not wanting to video tape the event. Further motion sensitive camera's and recording equipment aren't exactly in every home...and many are not familiar with setting up something like that. More evidence it's fake for you however because people don't react like you think they should. If you had talked to even ONE PERSON who claims abduction you wouldn't have wrote such a silly statement.

It's not silly. Because you are the one who says right after this paragraph

Well, you start by asking questions, then you....you know...investigate. There are people that are already investigating the few reports that are made. If you want to debunk it then you have to check how they investigate it

So why has no one ever made an attempt to at least try to record this phenomenon taking place. Sounds to me like it's a poor method of investigation if you just let it go like that. Hey people accept it will just happen. But then if you believe something and you don't want to challenge your own belief then leave that vital piece of possible evidence alone.

So my conclusion has to be that we won't try and prove something at the risk it could be inadvertently de-bunked and destroy millions of people's belief systems.

Absence of evidence is not evidence in of itself...but I'm sure you know that and just momentarily forgot.

Indeed but neither is it proof of anything.

Without any hard evidence, after nearly 70 years, it's somewhat difficult to conclude that aliens have been visiting us so frequently. The massive number of UFO and abduction reports only make it worse not better. Because there is nothing tangible to show from any of them.

I'm also wondering why these people have concluded that their experience has to have been alien abduction and not something else?

a reply to: grainofsand

At least Zeta contributes to the thread topic by asking questions and posting information on his understanding. I don't agree but do appreciate his efforts and learned more about the Woods case which is nice.

You, grainofsand, simply sit back and post repetitively the same 'NO PROOF' while adding absolutely nothing to the topic. People who read the thread can easily see the Troll. They read posts, they pull up links and read more about subjects that interest them. When page after page you have provided nothing yet still demand proof on a topic it's glaringly obvious who the Troll is.

It's funny to run into the stubborn Troll that keeps at it no matter what. The longer it goes on the funnier they look!

originally posted by: noeltrotsky
a reply to: grainofsand

At least Zeta contributes to the thread topic by asking questions and posting information on his understanding. I don't agree but do appreciate his efforts and learned more about the Woods case which is nice.

You, grainofsand, simply sit back and post repetitively the same 'NO PROOF' while adding absolutely nothing to the topic. People who read the thread can easily see the Troll. They read posts, they pull up links and read more about subjects that interest them. When page after page you have provided nothing yet still demand proof on a topic it's glaringly obvious who the Troll is.

It's funny to run into the stubborn Troll that keeps at it no matter what. The longer it goes on the funnier they look!

Oh dear, yet again cries of troll when I ask for supporting evidence when believers present assertions as fact.
I do not blindly believe the claims of anonymous ATS members, perhaps that causes you distress or something?
If a claim is made I shall ask questions, that is a logical course of action instead of just taking assertions as fact.
Now, if your evidence (or anyone else's) is so overwhelming then share it with ATS, otherwise I can only assume the evidence either does not exist or it is so tenuous that the person making the claims does not have the confidence to share it here.

*Edit*
Oh, and again, I asked for supporting evidence not proof there is a difference you may wish to educate yourself.
I have used the words "proof" and "prove" nowhere in this thread, that is your invention alone.

a reply to: noeltrotsky

So hypnosis only creates new memories, 'confabulation'? Well, I disagree completely. I've seen people remember better under hypnosis. It seems to especially help when the 'events' were surrounded by trauma, fear, or complete unknown. The subjects mind in those situations doesn't seem to form memories normally with the standard ability to remember. Before you quote studies on hypnosis understand that the extreme conditions I'm talking about are not part of the experiments.

There is absolutely nothing to support that hypnosis helps recover memories. There is only evidence that hypnosis can create false memories. This has been known for some time now.

Of course people can confabulate under hypnosis, but claiming everything remembered under hypnosis is fake, to be honest, shows you've never been involved in the process. Reading about something and doing it are very different. You should try the latter a bit more.

There is no way to determine "recovered" memories under hypnosis are real. If someone is claiming this, they are wrong or lying. And before you make claims, you should provide some support for them.

a reply to: game over man

I was minding my own business in my backyard late at night when I felt the presence of something, like an animal crossing through the yard. So I get up to look around the yard and thats when a sudden change happened. I started receiving telepathic communications from Grey Aliens whom I could see were in my backyard, but they were covered by black shadows. There were some against the fence and some by the tree, and they were sending me mental images of what they looked like and they were just saying, "Hi we're here, there is 12 of us. We are 3 foot tall Grey Aliens with smooth skin." I would describe their skin color to look like moon-light, and that above message is all they said. I just stood there shocked. Having had ghostly encounters in my past, I knew for a fact this was not ghostly.

Do you not find it odd that a bunch of aliens would say this to you telepathically? Now of course we cannot predict the behaviour of an alien species. But if they really exist and travelled to our own planet from somewhere else. Why do you think they would be in your backyard saying that?

If we had the technology to visit other planets and materialize in someone's backyard then it's sort of the equivalent of saying "Hi we're here. We are 6 foot (choose colour of skin) aliens with neatly styled hair on our heads".

originally posted by: mirageman
a reply to: noeltrotsky

originally posted by: mirageman I have always had a real problem believing in alien abduction stories.It's also something Americans seem prone to more than any other nation on earth for some reason. Perhaps there's a clue there?
any proof of that? I've read lots of reports from the UK as well as Canada myself.

Well of course not. There's no proof of any alien abductions happening in reality.

I meant proof that the phenomenon is happening in America more than elsewhere, not proof of abductions being real. Of course you don't have any proof of your statement, much easier to sit back and demand proof than provide it.

So why has no one ever made an attempt to at least try to record this phenomenon taking place. Sounds to me like it's a poor method of investigation if you just let it go like that. Hey people accept it will just happen. But then if you believe something and you don't want to challenge your own belief then leave that vital piece of possible evidence alone.
So my conclusion has to be that we won't try and prove something at the risk it could be inadvertently de-bunked and destroy millions of people's belief systems.

The fact that investigators are not implementing YOUR favorite method of investigation doesn't mean they are not investigating. As I said, there are many reasons why video surveillance of abductees isn't appropriate. You can't judge an investigation method properly from a computer monitor. When you get involved with the real people then you understand the limits of the investigation tools and methods you can reasonably use.

Did you even know that many abduction cases involved years between abduction events? I guess not as you suggest video surveillance MUST be done for credible research to be accepted.

Without any hard evidence, after nearly 70 years, it's somewhat difficult to conclude that aliens have been visiting us so frequently. The massive number of UFO and abduction reports only make it worse not better. Because there is nothing tangible to show from any of them.

Actually the UFO phenomenon goes back hundreds and over a thousand years if you study the earlier cases.

BTW, medieval scientists tried to turn lead into gold for hundreds and hundreds of years. All that work and time didn't prove it impossible because it was later done. The length of time involved in an investigation isn't relevant to the conclusion. For someone who is trying to be 'scientific' you're missing some basic fundamentals.

originally posted by: mirageman
Why do you think they would be in your backyard saying that?

Did you really just ask Why someone would say 'Hi' and describe themselves for a first meeting??? It seems incredibly normal for that to happen. That is done on Internet romances sites every minute of everyday when they make plans to meet for the first time. When greeting people for the first time, especially 'unannounced', what has been described sounds perfectly normal and even expected.

People need to be sensitive when talking to others who have had an experience and opened up about it. If you don't believe it that's fine, but I really don't like it when the challenging begins and statements like "Why would they say/do that" start. It is exactly why so few people come forward because of questions that are in fact efforts to debunk.

a reply to: noeltrotsky
Im qualified to field this one. As ive already shown in this thread, it was proven back in the late 1800s that traumatic memories could be imposed into people. A study at my university proved that memories could be faked under hypnotic regression if there was a history of awareness to the topic.

As you've probably seen from entertainment shows, hypnosis creates a state of severe suggestibility. Hence why the hypnotist says "on the count of 3 you will become a chicken" and so on. Now that simple idea, ponder it for a while. You can convince a person that they are a chicken. What else can you convince them of?

In this same example, as in our study, the person required a general understanding of what was asked - they had to know what a chicken was. If people have a strange experience, go to an abduction specialist for hypnosis, then they clearly have a preconceived notion, and likely to have related beliefs imposed on them.

originally posted by: ZetaRediculian
There is absolutely nothing to support that hypnosis helps recover memories. There is only evidence that hypnosis can create false memories. This has been known for some time now.

Of course there is...

Quote:
There is no question that hypnosis has the power to enhance memories by improving the mechanisms by which we create and retrieve them. This is partly based on the subject's suggestibility or persuasiveness which can be used to encourage deeper probing until recall is successful. If you forgot something, first try to reconstruct the memory best you can. If you really cannot recall the information, give a call to a qualified hypnotherapist and they should be able to help you remember.

www.psychologytoday.com...

But Psychology isn't really a Science is what I'm sure you'll say!

www.scientificamerican.com...

How about research papers showing the Hypnosis impacts areas of the brain involved with memory? That study 'scientific' enough for you?

originally posted by: grainofsand
Oh dear, yet again cries of troll when I ask for supporting evidence when believers present assertions as fact.

Still nothing to contribute? No information about Jacobs...no information about abductions....no information about hypnosis....

What a lovely member of the community you are! It takes all types to make the world go round!

a reply to: noeltrotsky


So you don't consider the near 4m America abductees (clearly quoted in my post and clearly omitted in your answer), in the Roper Poll significant?

I could go through a list of all the most famous abduction stories and how most of them come from the United States.

But what's the point?

You don't have any proof that people are being abducted by aliens. Now it may well turn out to be true. But at the moment you are believing it. Just like people believe in religions. But what if you believe in the wrong one? None of them may be right, and at best only one of them can be absolutely right.

So until you have real proof it's a futile exercise trying to argue your point that they are happening.

a reply to: noeltrotsky
I'm still waiting for anything to support assertions that aliens/abductions/UFO's are factual.
I have made no assertions, the burden of proof is on those who have...that would of course be your good self and Scdfa.
Now if all you have is unsubstantiated claims, while stating that you are not prepared to share any of your 'research' to ATS I can only assume that the evidence does not exist or is tenuous at best.
Remember I do not say "there are no aliens", just that I will not blindly believe your claims while you refrain from providing any supporting evidence to this forum.
Oh, and may I ask why you continue to make personal references to my intentions or how 'nice' or not you may think I am. It adds nothing to the debate and certainly does not support your unsubstantiated assertions that aliens are a factual reality.
Again, if you make the assertions then expect questions asking for the evidence which convinced you, but as long as you refuse to provide a shred of evidence aside from the questionable work of Dr Jacobs I shall assume you have nothing.

*Edit*
Oh, and this thread is about debunking debunkers, and so far all you've contributed is your personal assertion without anything to back it up. I am unconvinced by your argument, and it is up to those who make claims to provide supporting evidence, not those who doubt personal testimony.

a reply to: grainofsand

There is no debate with you, Troll! Sit back and wait for proof as you've said over and over.

Since you have nothing to add can you wait quietly and not disturb the rest who are discussing an interesting topic?