Debunking Abduction Debunkers

a reply to: grainofsand

I'm not sure what you are referring to either.

the testimonies is all we have to go on, so what tools are the scientific institutions or the psychiatric institutions employing to gather information on this phenomena ?

they're not are they,.. the truth is the aforementioned institutions actively dismiss them on mass , bar the odd brave soul who takes the plunge and gets ostracised

no development of methodology/toolset = stagnation in understanding

far crazier things have been studied by these institutions , why the aversion?

I figure if the blind eye is set in place there's a reason for it

funbox

originally posted by: mirageman
a reply to: PlanetXisHERE

Oh I know and you're right.

I am probably not in the right frame of mind to be discussing things of this nature today. I thought it might be a getaway from a very trying week for a few hours. But I think it might be better to take a chill pill and do something else.

Let me clarify that I actually think there is something at the bottom of all this. Although I am yet to find out what the hell it's all about. AndI am not expressing myself very well in this thread.

So if I have offended anyone I do apologise.

You didn't offend me at all friend, you just didn't seem quite "yourself". I think our thoughts on this are not that out of alignment, that there is something to all of this, I probably lean a little more to one side of the equation.

I have little doubt that some UFO sightings are non-human in nature, it is just a matter of which ones (just my opinion folks).

As for abductions, I'm not as certain, and would like to investigate it more.

Hope all is well with your family and health......

a reply to: funbox
It is the believers of the testimonies who are the only ones asserting that alien abduction is real.
I do not state that alien abduction is not real just that I do not blindly believe the testimony of others who state it is.
Perhaps you accept the testimony of others as sole evidence for claims? I presume you believe in ghosts and gods as well then? There are plenty of people who state they 'know' such entities exist.
Again, I believe in neither.

originally posted by: grainofsand

originally posted by: Scdfa
We get it, you're unconvinced. That's fine, then why hound us to convince you? It's a little crazy.

How crazy? It could be argued that making assertions and refusing to provide any supporting evidence is a little crazy don't you think?
I shall continue to ask for substance to support your assertions that alien abductions are a factual reality for as long as you refuse to provide it. You make the claims, I do not.
I suggest that you have nothing other than the testimony of people who claim to have been abducted, but of course you can easily refute me by sharing your overwhelming evidence to the membership of ATS.
Until you do your claims remain just that, claims.

One definition of insanity is to do something again and again and expect a different outcome. To go around in circles with you is just that sort of madness.

I am simply beyond this level of debate, You want to go around and around again and again, it is simply a poor use of my time to waltz with a petulant denier. Grow up. Do your own research. If you're still unconvinced, that's your choice. And none of it is my problem.

On the positive side, I AM here to share what I know with those interested. I don't have all the answers, but I can perhaps add a tiny pice to the puzzle.

But people like you are not interested in what I know, sadly. All you want is proof, not knowledge. And how's that working out for you?

originally posted by: mirageman

originally posted by: Scdfa

originally posted by: mirageman
a reply to: game over man

I was minding my own business in my backyard late at night when I felt the presence of something, like an animal crossing through the yard. So I get up to look around the yard and thats when a sudden change happened. I started receiving telepathic communications from Grey Aliens whom I could see were in my backyard, but they were covered by black shadows. There were some against the fence and some by the tree, and they were sending me mental images of what they looked like and they were just saying, "Hi we're here, there is 12 of us. We are 3 foot tall Grey Aliens with smooth skin." I would describe their skin color to look like moon-light, and that above message is all they said. I just stood there shocked. Having had ghostly encounters in my past, I knew for a fact this was not ghostly.

Do you not find it odd that a bunch of aliens would say this to you telepathically? Now of course we cannot predict the behaviour of an alien species. But if they really exist and travelled to our own planet from somewhere else. Why do you think they would be in your backyard saying that?

If we had the technology to visit other planets and materialize in someone's backyard then it's sort of the equivalent of saying "Hi we're here. We are 6 foot (choose colour of skin) aliens with neatly styled hair on our heads".

I'd imagine it rather foolish to assume you know how an alien race thinks, wouldn't you agree?

Not as foolish as insinuating you can tell whether people are lying or not on the internet, and claiming aliens not only exist, but abduct people without being able to offer hard proof of it.

Nah. It's more foolish to presume you know how an alien race thinks, by far.

originally posted by: Scdfa
I AM here to share what I know with those interested.

I am interested so how about sharing it now?

But people like you are not interested in what I know, sadly. All you want is proof, not knowledge.

Again, please read up on the difference between supporting evidence and proof. I have asked for supporting evidence for the knowledge you claim to have. So far in the thread you have made assertions then refuse to discuss what you have based your assertions on.
Now do you really just expect ATS members to blindly accept your assertions while you refuse to add any substance aside from "I have data and I won't share it with anyone', really?
If your 'research' was that impressive I suggest you would shout it from the rooftops and share it proudly with the world. But you consistantly refuse to do so using the excuse "do your own research". I think that is very telling of the strength of your evidence. But go ahead, keep on evangelising, I'm sure there are a few folk who will blindly believe the assertions of an anonymous member on an internet forum.

originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: funbox
I'm not the one claiming that alien abductions are a factual reality. Those who do can reasonably expect questions asking for details of the evidence they considered before drawing their conclusions.
We can evaluate the method of gathering evidence, or the tools used, after the details are provided by those who make the claims. So far in this thread the people making assertions have refrained from providing any supportive evidence or any details of their method used to reach their conclusions.
I on the other hand have made no assertions in this thread, so there is no requirement for me to provide any verification or supporting evidence.

You are biting off your nose to spite your face. You would have benefitted a great deal more by asking intelligent questions about what I know rather than trying to demand I prove what I know.

But you have your agenda, which is fine, just don't expect me to care. Peace.

a reply to: Scdfa
Well hopefully a fellow interested ATS member will ask you how you 'know' alien abductions are real so when you enlighten them with your knowledge I shall read something new at the same time.
Peace.

originally posted by: mirageman
a reply to: PlanetXisHERE

Oh I know and you're right.

I am probably not in the right frame of mind to be discussing things of this nature today. I thought it might be a getaway from a very trying week for a few hours. But I think it might be better to take a chill pill and do something else.

Let me clarify that I actually think there is something at the bottom of all this. Although I am yet to find out what the hell it's all about. AndI am not expressing myself very well in this thread.

So if I have offended anyone I do apologise.

Thank you, I appreciate where you are coming from, sorry you had a stressful week. Your posts are always welcome.

originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: Scdfa
Do you wish to share your overwhelming evidence of alien abduction with the good members of ATS now?
It's strange that one who can so easily make wild assertions is so unwilling to share the details of the evidence they used to reach such a strong conclusion. Curious, peculiar, and quite amusing to be honest.

We are not amused.

originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: funbox
It is the believers of the testimonies who are the only ones asserting that alien abduction is real.
I do not state that alien abduction is not real just that I do not blindly believe the testimony of others who state it is.
Perhaps you accept the testimony of others as sole evidence for claims? I presume you believe in ghosts and gods as well then? There are plenty of people who state they 'know' such entities exist.
Again, I believe in neither.

So how many times are you going to say the same thing? We got it. Stay unconvinced, okay? It's fine with me.

Too bad nobody seems to have read the Mufon study link I posted. Interesting stuff in there, for example...

'* 88% stated that their abduction memories were consciously recalled; 56% through dreams; 36% through hypnosis; 16% through other means such as flashbacks."

This shows that the bulk of memories are NOT obtained through hypnosis, thus reducing the problems that form of evidence causes for the Abduction research field.

The study link again is...
www.kathleen-marden.com...

originally posted by: grainofsand

originally posted by: Scdfa
I AM here to share what I know with those interested.

I am interested so how about sharing it now?

But people like you are not interested in what I know, sadly. All you want is proof, not knowledge.

Again, please read up on the difference between supporting evidence and proof. I have asked for supporting evidence for the knowledge you claim to have. So far in the thread you have made assertions then refuse to discuss what you have based your assertions on.
Now do you really just expect ATS members to blindly accept your assertions while you refuse to add any substance aside from "I have data and I won't share it with anyone', really?
If your 'research' was that impressive I suggest you would shout it from the rooftops and share it proudly with the world. But you consistantly refuse to do so using the excuse "do your own research". I think that is very telling of the strength of your evidence. But go ahead, keep on evangelising, I'm sure there are a few folk who will blindly believe the assertions of an anonymous member on an internet forum.

When did I ever say anything you attribute to me? You seem to be trying your hand at writing fiction.

Either ask me an intelligent question about aliens or abductions and I will answer it if I can. Otherwise, let me off your merry-go-round please, you're wasting my time.

originally posted by: noeltrotsky
Too bad nobody seems to have read the Mufon study link I posted. Interesting stuff in there, for example...

'* 88% stated that their abduction memories were consciously recalled; 56% through dreams; 36% through hypnosis; 16% through other means such as flashbacks."

This shows that the bulk of memories are NOT obtained through hypnosis, thus reducing the problems that form of evidence causes for the Abduction research field.

The study link again is...
www.kathleen-marden.com...

Great post, Trotsky, that is useful information, so it will be ignored by you know who.

As Seth Shostek (oor however it is spelt) says, where's the alien ship ash tray or cigarette lighter? I suppose it would be pretty cool if there were such things but where is the solid evidence. Not just circumstantial guff. Primitives used to need god to explain away amazing scientific stuff and now we have the new age primitives needing UFOs to explain away the scientific stuff that is still to be explained.
a reply to: anarchychaos56

a reply to: noeltrotsky

'* 88% stated that their abduction memories were consciously recalled; 56% through dreams; 36% through hypnosis; 16% through other means such as flashbacks."

That adds up to 196% ! I am not so sure you can recall things through dreams actually that sounds pretty unfounded. During one of my migraines about a year ago, I had a flood of memories of things that never happened to me. It was a pretty bizarre experience. They all seemed to be memories of dreams and I was going in and of this feeling of "yeah I remember that, oh wait, that never happened." There really is no difference between a real memory and a false memory which is really strange when you think about it.

originally posted by: noeltrotsky
For people interested in abduction beyond Jacobs' work there are other credible sources as well.

www.mufon.com...
My understanding is that Mufon started a group up because the demand was so much.

www.alienresistance.org...
Another respected investigator Joe Jordan

There are lots more, many less experienced investigators but worthy of reading up on.

Credible sources? Mufon simply collects claims. What's credible about claims unsupported by evidence? Nothing. They're just claims.

a reply to: grainofsand

For what it's worth, I think it was a very accurate characterization.

originally posted by: Scdfa

originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: noeltrotsky
So you have nothing except the claims made by Dr Jacobs then?
Urm, ok, I'm sure you can understand why I and others remain unconvinced by your assertions. Your standard of evidence is clearly rather low, but I'm more than happy for you to believe provided you do not present said beliefs as fact.
That is a reasonable position to hold.

We get it, you're unconvinced. That's fine, then why hound us to convince you? It's a little crazy.

Those who make claims of fact should understand that that puts them in the firing line for demands of testable evidence proving those claims of fact. That's how it works. This isn't a church where someone stands at the pulpit and spins tales and passes the collection plate.

originally posted by: funbox
a reply to: grainofsand

I'm not sure what you are referring to either.

the testimonies is all we have to go on, so what tools are the scientific institutions or the psychiatric institutions employing to gather information on this phenomena ?

they're not are they,.. the truth is the aforementioned institutions actively dismiss them on mass , bar the odd brave soul who takes the plunge and gets ostracised

no development of methodology/toolset = stagnation in understanding

far crazier things have been studied by these institutions , why the aversion?

I figure if the blind eye is set in place there's a reason for it

funbox

Well lets look at it fro another perspective. Lets say the odd brave soul takes a gander at the "phenomenon" and determines it to be 100% psychological in nature or anything that doesn't conform to the ufological viewpoint. They would be considered a debunker disinformationist bastard because guys like Jacobs have already determined what it is!

So really the only research from mainstream allowed is the one that conforms to what has already been determined to be true by ufology.