Debunking Abduction Debunkers

But that's just one theory.

It only takes one real abduction...and not every case involves implants or being in someones underwear or clothes on backwards...There is a whole slew of different cases. It's really quite interesting when you start reading about them all.

a reply to: Ridhya

Thank you for pointing out, in detail, that this so-called scientific study was pseudo-science at best.The problem is that most people are not educated in science and properly conducted studies and will ignore the accurate points you've made. Again, I compare this to religious fundamentalists and the pseudo-science coming out of the so-called Institute for Creation Research. Anyone with a background in science knows that it's bogus but those who don't really don't know that and, being true believers, refuse to learn about real science. They're caught in a loop and are being played like banjos.

originally posted by: noeltrotsky

originally posted by: Ridhya
Scientific method is IMPERATIVE and they have thrown that out the door. This is not a valid study as it is not a controlled experiment.

By the way, all this effort is for myself, because I assume most of you will still ignore it.

No matter what information is presented the Sceptic always boils it down to 'scientiic method' and 'controlled experiment'. Of course in a lab that approach works great. However in the real world it is an impossible standard to meet. Thank God that our Legal system isn't run by 'scientists' demanding controlled experiments to determine guilt...jails would be completely empty!!! Amazingly enough, the legal system performs quite well in the REAL WORLD and doesn't demand what the Skeptic demands.

So, no, your efforts are not ignored but in the REAL WORLD people have to deal with problems and find solutions. It's imperfect, but it works quite well. Join us one day!

Apparently you don't know that the legal system is not based on science nor does it claim to be.

originally posted by: noeltrotsky

originally posted by: Ridhya
a reply to: noeltrotsky
Well I guess I must be psychic, because I predicted reading that test and writing a long thought out response for an hour would be a waste of time!

No, as I said in my post it wasn't.

The fact alone that this was of 50 people and 20-something controls, makes it incredibly invalid pertaining to a whole population, as its not even an appropriate sample.

The limited sample size sure does limit the RELIABILITY of the conclusion. It doesn't invalidate the test or the questions. However, as I discussed, in the REAL WORLD there simply aren't 50,000 people stepping forward with claims of alien abduction to get examined by one group, Mufon. YET AGAIN, you apply a method of examination that isn't possible in the REAL WORLD.

Possibly you should actually consider what other people say.

It is possible to conduct even small studies using rigorous guidelines that produce accurate results. It wasn't done in this case. For one thing, accurate studies require the use of truly random samples within the studied population. Contrary to common belief, that does not mean studying every 5th or 10th person in the given population. The MUFON study is a bad joke and the joke is on the people who think it's legitimate because they don't know any better.

originally posted by: noeltrotsky

originally posted by: ZetaRediculian
So what exactly were you implying with the all caps REAL WORLD? Sorry but I took offense to that and then used the same words you used and points that you did in fact raise.

As I said, you can't conduct controlled experiments in the REAL WORLD. Yet that is the demand being made for evidence.

To be honest this thread has been completely ruined...as I predicted at the very beginning. Cause it always happens. I appreciate the effort some posters made to add to the argument, on both sides. To the posters who simply try to rip and shred others while adding nothing I suggest you look in the mirror and ask what you are adding to the world with your actions.

Controlled studies are conducted in the real world on a regular basis.

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: Scdfa

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: funbox
a reply to: Tangerine

same question to you too , show me the tools tangerine

funbox

I'm not the one claiming that extraterrestrials visit earth and abduct people. If one wishes to claim that is fact, one looks to science and the scientific method. Fact is the purview of science. If one prefers to call it belief, then one looks to philosophy or religion or metaphysics. I have no problem discussing the topic in any of those contexts. But the context is determined by the person positing the context. In my experience, it's a rare UFO/ET enthusiast who is willing or able to distinguish between belief and fact. They approach the subject like religious fundamentalists who expect everyone to accept their personal beliefs as fact. Not going to happen on my watch.

Science has failed you. Your faith is endearing, but unfounded.

Science hasn't touched the issue for fear of losing funding, academic status, grant money, and losing their government contracts. Is that not the case? Science has given you seventy years of not investigating.

If you're waiting for science to inform you about the reality of UFOs, you will wait a long, long time. Oh, wait, you already have!

You should be nicer to us, pardner. We're all you got.

All that UFO means is unidentified flying object. It doesn't mean a craft piloted by extraterrestrials or reptoids from Area 51. Of course there are unidentified flying objects.

Find a crashed "saucer" and the body of an extraterrestrial or reptoid from Area 51 and the scientists will flock to it.

But don't expect a scientist whose career depends on grants to jump at the chance to hang out with and be associated with a bunch of con artists, delusional people, and crackpots of assorted types who drown out the relatively few rational people with a serious interest in the subject. Don't expect a reputable scientist to be willing to ignore the scientific method and declare Jimmy's videotape of his hypnosis session to be testable evidence of extraterrestrials visiting earth and stealing sperm from members of bowling teams. Don't expect a reputable scientist to stake her career on Martha's channeled communications from Zorkon that's she's written in code on 4.786 pages. Don't expect a reputable scientist to stake his career on a blob of light in a photograph that Ralph and Sheena swear is spacecraft from Orion that buzzed their house. Don't expect a reputable scientist to risk being called a government disinformation agent for not coming to the same conclusion you want him/her to reach.

O

Yes, exactly like I told you, science has failed you. If you are waiting for "science" to investigate the alien situation, you'll wait a long, long time. Oh, wait you already have, seventy years and counting! How's that working out for ya?

originally posted by: Scdfa

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: Scdfa

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: funbox
a reply to: Tangerine

same question to you too , show me the tools tangerine

funbox

I'm not the one claiming that extraterrestrials visit earth and abduct people. If one wishes to claim that is fact, one looks to science and the scientific method. Fact is the purview of science. If one prefers to call it belief, then one looks to philosophy or religion or metaphysics. I have no problem discussing the topic in any of those contexts. But the context is determined by the person positing the context. In my experience, it's a rare UFO/ET enthusiast who is willing or able to distinguish between belief and fact. They approach the subject like religious fundamentalists who expect everyone to accept their personal beliefs as fact. Not going to happen on my watch.

Science has failed you. Your faith is endearing, but unfounded.

Science hasn't touched the issue for fear of losing funding, academic status, grant money, and losing their government contracts. Is that not the case? Science has given you seventy years of not investigating.

If you're waiting for science to inform you about the reality of UFOs, you will wait a long, long time. Oh, wait, you already have!

You should be nicer to us, pardner. We're all you got.

All that UFO means is unidentified flying object. It doesn't mean a craft piloted by extraterrestrials or reptoids from Area 51. Of course there are unidentified flying objects.

Find a crashed "saucer" and the body of an extraterrestrial or reptoid from Area 51 and the scientists will flock to it.

But don't expect a scientist whose career depends on grants to jump at the chance to hang out with and be associated with a bunch of con artists, delusional people, and crackpots of assorted types who drown out the relatively few rational people with a serious interest in the subject. Don't expect a reputable scientist to be willing to ignore the scientific method and declare Jimmy's videotape of his hypnosis session to be testable evidence of extraterrestrials visiting earth and stealing sperm from members of bowling teams. Don't expect a reputable scientist to stake her career on Martha's channeled communications from Zorkon that's she's written in code on 4.786 pages. Don't expect a reputable scientist to stake his career on a blob of light in a photograph that Ralph and Sheena swear is spacecraft from Orion that buzzed their house. Don't expect a reputable scientist to risk being called a government disinformation agent for not coming to the same conclusion you want him/her to reach.

O

Yes, exactly like I told you, science has failed you. If you are waiting for "science" to investigate the alien situation, you'll wait a long, long time. Oh, wait you already have, seventy years and counting! How's that working out for ya?

Actually, I'm not waiting at all. There probably isn't any "alien situation". I'm also not going to join the Church of ET.

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: deloprator20000
a reply to: Scdfa

I would say that the secret government is working hard to harass and intimidate anyone who even dares to question the status quo with regard to ETs.

What status quo? As far as I can tell, the government wants us to believe that extraterrestrials are visiting earth. Otherwise, the percentage of people who do believe it would be much smaller. After all, governments routinely manage to get the majority of the public to believe all sorts of rubbish including fabrications to justify war.

This is absolutely false, and it is double speak of Orwellian proportion.

Some might even call it a bold faced lie. The facts are that for the last seventy years the government has gone to enormous lengths to prevent the populace from knowing the truth about alien / human contact.

Seventy years of denials and cover-ups. Thousands of witnesses threatened to keep silent. Phony "studies" like Projects Bluebook, Grudge, Sign, and the Condon report, all existing solely to cover up the truth, according to the scientists involved. And you do put all your faith in science, right?

Look, folks, The record is clear and undeniable, all it takes is a look at the documents released under the Freedom of Information Act that reveal undeniable documentation of a policy of absolute denial, year after year, decade after decade, president after president.

It is laughable to suggest that seventy years of denial and cover-up is actually intended to get you to BELIEVE in alien contact. Absurd, with no evidence to support such an outrageous claim. None. They believed the lies told in the propaganda film "Mirage men", which STILL pushes the point that aliens are not real! So how has their story changed? It hasn't.

People don't believe in UFOs and aliens because the government tricked them into doing so.

People believe in UFOs and aliens because millions of people have seen them for themselves.

I shouldn't have to make that point, but people like tangerine, grainofsand, and zeta rediculan share a goal that is common to the government: They want you to believe alien contact is not real. Don't take my word for it, take their words and see for yourself.

Along with Hypnotism, I've seen Hynek mentioned. In the following vid, Hynek and Kreskin meet. Hynek says some interesting things germane to this conversation. Then--in the last 10 minutes--an actual mass sighting of a UFO occurs.

a reply to: The GUT

I dont know Bro I watched the video I did see the the things in the background but I can't exactly accept that as a sighting as this show is hosted by a magician. Granted it was the 70s and all and it isn't like the cgi today then again back then they didn't need cgi either effects were more practical. What do you think, was this genuine? Or do you think it was for ratings or in our day and age the "lulz"? Interesting content none the less though I have never seen this before.

originally posted by: Tangerine
a reply to: Ridhya

Thank you for pointing out, in detail, that this so-called scientific study was pseudo-science at best.The problem is that most people are not educated in science and properly conducted studies and will ignore the accurate points you've made. Again, I compare this to religious fundamentalists and the pseudo-science coming out of the so-called Institute for Creation Research. Anyone with a background in science knows that it's bogus but those who don't really don't know that and, being true believers, refuse to learn about real science. They're caught in a loop and are being played like banjos.

More Orwellian double speak from you.

First you say "it's not real until science says so!"

Then you say, "of course science won't investigate it because it's not real!"

Then you repeat. Circular logic.

It's a catch-22. A ride on the denier merry-go-round, no matter how long you ride it, it doesn't go anywhere.

a reply to: Scdfa

Science explains the natural world, the scientific method is the best means we have at coming to a good description of nature. I would argue that science should still win and it doesn't have to be orwellian, unless of course you are suggesting using logic and testable means to verify data isn't good enough. If that is the case which I am not saying is (or you are trying to say in any way shape or form) what method is best used, psychics?

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: Scdfa

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: Scdfa

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: funbox
a reply to: Tangerine

same question to you too , show me the tools tangerine

funbox

I'm not the one claiming that extraterrestrials visit earth and abduct people. If one wishes to claim that is fact, one looks to science and the scientific method. Fact is the purview of science. If one prefers to call it belief, then one looks to philosophy or religion or metaphysics. I have no problem discussing the topic in any of those contexts. But the context is determined by the person positing the context. In my experience, it's a rare UFO/ET enthusiast who is willing or able to distinguish between belief and fact. They approach the subject like religious fundamentalists who expect everyone to accept their personal beliefs as fact. Not going to happen on my watch.

Science has failed you. Your faith is endearing, but unfounded.

Science hasn't touched the issue for fear of losing funding, academic status, grant money, and losing their government contracts. Is that not the case? Science has given you seventy years of not investigating.

If you're waiting for science to inform you about the reality of UFOs, you will wait a long, long time. Oh, wait, you already have!

You should be nicer to us, pardner. We're all you got.

All that UFO means is unidentified flying object. It doesn't mean a craft piloted by extraterrestrials or reptoids from Area 51. Of course there are unidentified flying objects.

Find a crashed "saucer" and the body of an extraterrestrial or reptoid from Area 51 and the scientists will flock to it.

But don't expect a scientist whose career depends on grants to jump at the chance to hang out with and be associated with a bunch of con artists, delusional people, and crackpots of assorted types who drown out the relatively few rational people with a serious interest in the subject. Don't expect a reputable scientist to be willing to ignore the scientific method and declare Jimmy's videotape of his hypnosis session to be testable evidence of extraterrestrials visiting earth and stealing sperm from members of bowling teams. Don't expect a reputable scientist to stake her career on Martha's channeled communications from Zorkon that's she's written in code on 4.786 pages. Don't expect a reputable scientist to stake his career on a blob of light in a photograph that Ralph and Sheena swear is spacecraft from Orion that buzzed their house. Don't expect a reputable scientist to risk being called a government disinformation agent for not coming to the same conclusion you want him/her to reach.

O

Yes, exactly like I told you, science has failed you. If you are waiting for "science" to investigate the alien situation, you'll wait a long, long time. Oh, wait you already have, seventy years and counting! How's that working out for ya?

Actually, I'm not waiting at all. There probably isn't any "alien situation". I'm also not going to join the Church of ET.

You reveal more here than you probably intended. For how long now have you been crying that " no studies or findings count until science says so! We need a real scientist to investigate alien contact!"

But here you reveal how you real feel, "I'm not waiting for science to study it because it isn't real anyway."

Does this mean you'll stop crying out for science now?

originally posted by: Brotherman
a reply to: Scdfa

Science explains the natural world, the scientific method is the best means we have at coming to a good description of nature. I would argue that science should still win and it doesn't have to be orwellian, unless of course you are suggesting using logic and testable means to verify data isn't good enough. If that is the case which I am not saying is (or you are trying to say in any way shape or form) what method is best used, psychics?

So where is science? Where are the scientists that are investigating the UFO and alien situation?

Science has failed all of us. They've had 70 years since Roswell, where are they?

I'll tell you where they are. Hiding.

Scientists are to scared of losing their funding to tackle an issue that the government wants kept quiet.

That's the bottom line, plain and simple, and the bottom line is always money. They don't dare risk losing their grants, their academic status, their prestige, and their fat government contracts, not to mention any hope of a job with a government agency like NASA.

So, science works on boner pills and artificial sweeteners instead. Much safer, and more lucrative.

Your faith in science is touching, but sadly misplaced.

Meanwhile, this keeps happening. So how long do we wait for scientists to grow a pair?

Be grateful for people like Dr. Jacobs. He's all we've got.

originally posted by: Brotherman
a reply to: The GUT

I dont know Bro I watched the video I did see the the things in the background but I can't exactly accept that as a sighting as this show is hosted by a magician.

Kreskin is considered a "mentalist" rather than magician and the premise is that the "mass sighting" was a result of suggestion (Hypnotic.)

Bro Hug, hope all is well with you old friend.

a reply to: Scdfa

Dr. Jaques Vallee I like his stance on this topic. Jacobs isn't bad but as I said earlier in the thread he didn't really cover anything new. Personally I'm not in the ET camp, I don't think there are Grey space aliens visiting earth.

originally posted by: Scdfa
So where is science? Where are the scientists that are investigating the UFO and alien situation?

Have you heard of Dr. Jacques Vallee? Or CAIPAN? Or Sturrock? Hynek's collaborated scientific studies to include the well-documented Yakima Indian Reservation sightings?

Or the spectacular redheaded stepchild of ufology: Project Identification?

Hard to understand why you support Jacobs with all the actual documentation presented here that pretty much strips him of any professional credibility.

What we might call the "metaphysical" seems to fit the abduction phenomena much more neatly than E.T.

The question becomes: ARE abductions a part of "ufology" or a separate subject?

Project Identification: Ufology's Red-Headed Stepchild

ATS member easynow's excellent thread goes into some scientific studies that actually produced some results. Project Identification even moreso:

The Yakima UFO Sightings

a reply to: The GUT

Magician mentalist meh lol. I was just saying I saw what they did there was curious on your opinion in it is all. Besides that, that was quite a bit a lot before my time.

a reply to: Scdfa

So where is science? Where are the scientists that are investigating the UFO and alien situation?

I think you call them "Debunkers". Like I said before, when someone does look at this from a scientific viewpoint and doesn't quite see it as an alien phenomenon, they will be considered a debunker. The only thing that will be accepted is when someone agrees with the ETH. search your feelings you know it to be true.

So what I think you want is "science" to step in to confirm your beliefs.

originally posted by: Scdfa

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: deloprator20000
a reply to: Scdfa

I would say that the secret government is working hard to harass and intimidate anyone who even dares to question the status quo with regard to ETs.

What status quo? As far as I can tell, the government wants us to believe that extraterrestrials are visiting earth. Otherwise, the percentage of people who do believe it would be much smaller. After all, governments routinely manage to get the majority of the public to believe all sorts of rubbish including fabrications to justify war.

This is absolutely false, and it is double speak of Orwellian proportion.

Some might even call it a bold faced lie. The facts are that for the last seventy years the government has gone to enormous lengths to prevent the populace from knowing the truth about alien / human contact.

Seventy years of denials and cover-ups. Thousands of witnesses threatened to keep silent. Phony "studies" like Projects Bluebook, Grudge, Sign, and the Condon report, all existing solely to cover up the truth, according to the scientists involved. And you do put all your faith in science, right?

Look, folks, The record is clear and undeniable, all it takes is a look at the documents released under the Freedom of Information Act that reveal undeniable documentation of a policy of absolute denial, year after year, decade after decade, president after president.

It is laughable to suggest that seventy years of denial and cover-up is actually intended to get you to BELIEVE in alien contact. Absurd, with no evidence to support such an outrageous claim. None. They believed the lies told in the propaganda film "Mirage men", which STILL pushes the point that aliens are not real! So how has their story changed? It hasn't.

People don't believe in UFOs and aliens because the government tricked them into doing so.

People believe in UFOs and aliens because millions of people have seen them for themselves.

I shouldn't have to make that point, but people like tangerine, grainofsand, and zeta rediculan share a goal that is common to the government: They want you to believe alien contact is not real. Don't take my word for it, take their words and see for yourself.

What the government has done is essentially hold up a box and, when asked what's in it, say, "Nothing. Nothing at all!", thus ensuring that most of the people will naturally believe they are hiding something. That is the very best way to get someone to believe that UFOs exist. The end result is that a high percentage of people believe that UFOs exist. Do you not think the government is capable of using disinformation?

You say, "The facts are that for the last seventy years the government has gone to enormous lengths to prevent the populace from knowing the truth about alien / human contact." The truth about alien/human contact? Facts? Since you seem to be in possession of these facts about the "truth about alien/human contact" how about you cite those facts and the testable evidence that proves those claims of fact? That raises the question of why you haven't done so before because, if you had, the issue would have been settled. What you've done instead is make claims unbacked by testable evidence. How about changing that as of today and doing that which you want the government to do: release the testable evidence proving that aliens have contacted humans?

Whether several of us want to believe aliens have contacted humans or have not is utterly immaterial. When you cite the testable evidence proving aliens have contacted humans we will have to accept it. If that isn't motivation, I don't know what would be. On the other hand, you may not possess any testable evidence whatsoever. We've been to this party before.