LGBTQ is forced on elementary students in schools without parents consent

a reply to: Logarock

Oh so sorry. I was not aware that my very specific observation of a very specific post was "common rhetoric." Please do pardon my ignorance on the matter that this is common rhetoric and that you defining it as such should silence me or prevent me from stating an observation.

a reply to: beezzer

“To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to Criticize.” – Voltaire

originally posted by: Moresby

originally posted by: Logarock

originally posted by: Moresby

originally posted by: ElectricUniverse

originally posted by: Moresby

...
Plus, no one is discussing how and why this material was selected. Or even the general way school curriculum is chosen. It's a local process. And parents and other citizens can get involved in many ways. From being elected to school boards to testifying at their public meetings. There's people of all stripes on school boards, including tons and tons of conservatives many of them self-described tea partiers.

...

Really?... You mean like the father who was arrested by the police because he was against the pornography being taught to children and his daughter and the school board didn't want to hear about his concerns and got him arrested for daring to speak up?...

Is that what you are talking about?...

I'm not going to defend the arrest of that man. But one loony activist and one overreaching cop is not characteristic of our school boards. In fact, as it turns out, the school board did just what this guy wanted.

Of course, the book in question is not pornography. And the arrested man didn't even want the book banned. He felt parents should have been notified that it contained some graphic content, so he could make a decision about whether or not he wanted his child reading the book.

The school district has subsequently apologized for not informing parents. And has changed its policy. Now parents are not only being informed, but such books will require an opt-in rather than opt-out policy, i.e. students have to have signed permission from their parent or guardian to participate in the study of the book.

So the man in the video go what he wanted. And he's continuing to pursue legal action. And I'm sure he'll make money on the right wing lecture circuit.

Democracy can be a bit sloppy ... but as in this case ... it often results in people getting exactly what they want.

Yea you cant really have a man escorted out and arrested like this in front of the most concerned citizens in the community and not expect a backlash. Looks to much like Nazi Germany. By the way the school board wasn't very apologetic at the time of the arrest nor did they seem to care about what parents thought prior. Looks like there was huge outcry and not just "one loony activist" at work.

Democracy isn't always pretty. But it seems that community was able to come to an acceptable solution.

So, as I originally said, there is a range of processes to seek redress. And here we saw them exercised. It got a bit messy, as happens in democracies, but eventually the community came to a solution that looks like it's right for them.

They can continue to teach that and similar books. But parents will be informed. And an opt-in process will be required.

Oh like the "opt-out option" doesn't put a kid on the spot for exercising their conscience. The truth is the question was still never addressed and they feed the parents the notion that their voice was finally heard with the opt out deal when nothing about the core is addressees.

Another joke about the opt out option is that the motivation to do so is still the result home based education of the child and not the result of the school training kids in all viewpoints of an issue. So little Johnny learns the cost of resistance is going out, being separated from the rest of the sheep and being a spectacle.

By the way this isn't a democracy but a republic and these men were exercising protected rights of redressing government and its entities in public assembly. Having them escorted out is only indicative of a mindset.

originally posted by: ~Lucidity
a reply to: Logarock

Oh so sorry. I was not aware that my very specific observation of a very specific post was "common rhetoric." Please do pardon my ignorance on the matter that this is common rhetoric and that you defining it as such should silence me or prevent me from stating an observation.

Your ignorance should not be excused, nor your rhetoric considering we are trying to have an adult discussion.

originally posted by: Logarock

originally posted by: Moresby

originally posted by: Logarock

originally posted by: Moresby

originally posted by: ElectricUniverse

originally posted by: Moresby

...
Plus, no one is discussing how and why this material was selected. Or even the general way school curriculum is chosen. It's a local process. And parents and other citizens can get involved in many ways. From being elected to school boards to testifying at their public meetings. There's people of all stripes on school boards, including tons and tons of conservatives many of them self-described tea partiers.

...

Really?... You mean like the father who was arrested by the police because he was against the pornography being taught to children and his daughter and the school board didn't want to hear about his concerns and got him arrested for daring to speak up?...

Is that what you are talking about?...

I'm not going to defend the arrest of that man. But one loony activist and one overreaching cop is not characteristic of our school boards. In fact, as it turns out, the school board did just what this guy wanted.

Of course, the book in question is not pornography. And the arrested man didn't even want the book banned. He felt parents should have been notified that it contained some graphic content, so he could make a decision about whether or not he wanted his child reading the book.

The school district has subsequently apologized for not informing parents. And has changed its policy. Now parents are not only being informed, but such books will require an opt-in rather than opt-out policy, i.e. students have to have signed permission from their parent or guardian to participate in the study of the book.

So the man in the video go what he wanted. And he's continuing to pursue legal action. And I'm sure he'll make money on the right wing lecture circuit.

Democracy can be a bit sloppy ... but as in this case ... it often results in people getting exactly what they want.

Yea you cant really have a man escorted out and arrested like this in front of the most concerned citizens in the community and not expect a backlash. Looks to much like Nazi Germany. By the way the school board wasn't very apologetic at the time of the arrest nor did they seem to care about what parents thought prior. Looks like there was huge outcry and not just "one loony activist" at work.

Democracy isn't always pretty. But it seems that community was able to come to an acceptable solution.

So, as I originally said, there is a range of processes to seek redress. And here we saw them exercised. It got a bit messy, as happens in democracies, but eventually the community came to a solution that looks like it's right for them.

They can continue to teach that and similar books. But parents will be informed. And an opt-in process will be required.

Oh like the "opt-out option" doesn't put a kid on the spot for exercising their conscience.

It's not an opt-out, it's an opt-in. All students must have a note signed to participate. This is what the arrested man wanted.

When I was in high school back in the eighties, we had such an opt-in policy in my AP Humanities class. It was for reading "The Reeve's Tale" from "The Canterbury Tales" by Chaucer. Many parents didn't sign. Mine did.

I got to study that story. Had lots of fun with it. Other kids did something else. Life went on.

a reply to: Moresby

The school around here has an opt out and you must go stand out in the hall if you find any material offensive and don't want to participate.

originally posted by: Logarock
a reply to: Moresby

The school around here has an opt out and you must go stand out in the hall if you find any material offensive and don't want to participate.

If you have a problem with that. Contact the school. And if that doesn't work go to the next school board meeting.

But, frankly, I bet it's a process that the kids, being kids, totally abuse.



I don't think an opt-out process would be appropriate in the case mentioned by the OP. Because that was done in reaction to gross discrimination by faculty and staff at one of the schools in that district.

a reply to: beezzer

Then who? Who IS going to do it? The parents won't, the school as a "government agent" is a dire threat ...

And, really, this is the US and I live in the South ... you'd be hard-pressed to find an elected official who's not a Bible-totin' publi prayin' Servant of Our Lord Jesus Christ ...

... at least officially.

(Who will teach kids that bullying is wrong?)

originally posted by: smithjustinb

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: smithjustinb

But your indoctrination of your kids with archaic biases and bigotry will serve them well in society?

Yeah, that's logical.

THEY'RE MY KIDS! They aren't yours. They aren't society's. They're mine!

I am neither archaic nor am I a bigot. Simply stating facts. There's something wrong with gay people that they would break away from their natural, anatomical disposition. There's something wrong with trans-gender people who were born with one lower extremity and want another. That's a mental health issue and it needs to be recognized as such. We shouldn't bully them. But we should seek a medical cure. We damn sure shouldn't suggest to children that it would be okay to aspire to be like them.

Check, the kids are YOURS, they're YOUR POSSESSION! Got it!!! You can do what you want with them, as your PROPERTY! To heck with what's good for them, to heck with teaching them that society is a place that is comprised by all types of people and that it is a valuable talent to learn how to work together with other people rather than judge them and suggest that they're diseased or mentally ill.

Got it!

I hate to break it to you but there are mounds of scientific evidence (Link), and decades of public and now majority opinion (Link) that prove that you are NOT stating facts. The concept of sexual orientation (and gender identity) is well-accepted (and has been for decades) by the medical, psychiatric, psychological and scientific communities. So, archaic, while slightly hyperbolic, is exactly accurate to describe your stated position on the matter. Further, your stated opinions that others do not have the right to be who and what they are, based merely on your beliefs, are PRECISELY what make your position bigoted.

AND BESIDES THAT (added in edit) ... for decades parents with strong religious beliefs have been informing their kids that "what they told you at that school" was not in line with their religious beliefs. Nothing in this scenario or in any similar scenario would prevent the parents in California, or any other state from continuing that fine tradition.

What's the threat? That the kids will see the reason and rationality of the fact that people are different and choose not to be biased and bigoted copies of their parents, despite the fact that parents have overwhelming power in shaping their kids outlooks from the day they are born until they are adults?

Is it possible that these archaic beliefs that are directly disputed by modern science, medicine and psychiatry will be seen for the foolishness that they are?

And yes, for the record, it is my opinion that claiming that homosexuals and trans* folk are "sick and perverted" is a backward belief shared and perpetuated by some Christians, not all.

originally posted by: Moresby

originally posted by: Logarock
a reply to: Moresby

The school around here has an opt out and you must go stand out in the hall if you find any material offensive and don't want to participate.

If you have a problem with that. Contact the school. And if that doesn't work go to the next school board meeting.

But, frankly, I bet it's a process that the kids, being kids, totally abuse.

.

I only know of one case my son told me about. They were showing kids a film about, of all people for 5th graders to be learning about......Rasputin. Two kids left the room over some of the elements of the case.

Now, be that as it may any thinking person has to scratch the head as to why such a man would be suitable exposure to 5th graders? Its just the sort of thing a more developed mind should be given for consideration. Implications of sexual misconduct and occultism not to mention in a state context of power and influence. 5th graders just don't have enough range of education and history ect ect to appreciate the topic.

Anyway it smacks of some agenda or some really bad educational decision making on the part of some there. Its hard to afford any reasoning on my part that there would be any good reason for much of what they offer as far as educational material for a 5th grader out side of reading, writing and math.

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: smithjustinb

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: smithjustinb

But your indoctrination of your kids with archaic biases and bigotry will serve them well in society?

Yeah, that's logical.

THEY'RE MY KIDS! They aren't yours. They aren't society's. They're mine!

I am neither archaic nor am I a bigot. Simply stating facts. There's something wrong with gay people that they would break away from their natural, anatomical disposition. There's something wrong with trans-gender people who were born with one lower extremity and want another. That's a mental health issue and it needs to be recognized as such. We shouldn't bully them. But we should seek a medical cure. We damn sure shouldn't suggest to children that it would be okay to aspire to be like them.

Check, the kids are YOURS, they're YOUR POSSESSION! Got it!!! You can do what you want with them, as your PROPERTY! To heck with what's good for them, to heck with teaching them that society is a place that is comprised by all types of people and that it is a valuable talent to learn how to work together with other people rather than judge them and suggest that they're diseased or mentally ill.

Got it!

.

I work with then and don't bother them......but teach my kid that it is not ok to put your friends body parts where they don't belong. Real simple. As long as folks are not violating your civil rights don't worry about what they are telling their kids at home.

a reply to: txinfidel

Well I suppose you think purposely offending people and being obnoxious is that much better?

You apparently do - because this thread itself is EXTREMELY offensive in my opinion, YOU are being purposely obnoxious (and willfully ignorant), and your "source" is a shill site.

Good grief.

Kids know their gender-identity as toddlers. They know their sexual orientation by 9 or 10. Deal with it.
Other kids will deal with it just fine. It IS the adults - the homophobes and Bible-thumping idiots who cause this kind of strife and teach their children hatred, intolerance, and arrogance.

LGBT are REAL parts of the human spectrum. Get off your high horse and give the nation a chance to catch up with modern, intelligent society. There is nothing wrong with teaching children the difference between males/females/transgendered or intersex people - they exist. Always have.

This thread is disgraceful.

Here, OP. Educate yourself.
www.apadivisions.org...

CULTURE, DIVERSITY, DEMOGRAPHIC, AND DEVELOPMENTAL FACTORS

Gender diversity and transgender identity occur in all cultural,
ethnic, and racial groups. There is no single trajectory of
development of gender diversity or transgender identity. Many
gender diverse children will later identify as LGBTQ in adolescence
and adulthood.

Gender identity development occurs much earlier than the
development of sexual orientation. Children usually have a sense of
their gender identity between age 2 to 5 and they typically become
cognizant of their sexual orientation around age 9 or 10, although
this self-awareness is occurring at earlier ages, particularly as it is
a topic more widely discussed and available to younger children.

Transgender and gender diverse children may begin to play in a way
that is not expected for children of their sex from a very young age.
Gender diverse boys typically experience more negative reactions
from their parents and experience more victimization at school than
gender diverse girls. This is due to the great latitude given to girls
expressing masculine behaviors in a society that overvalues male
behaviors and undervalues female behaviors.

Get a grip on reality.

a reply to: Gryphon66

I'm not sure why you didn't understand the difference between boys and girls at whatever young age, but I think most kids today do. - See more at: www.abovetopsecret.com...&mem=Gryphon66#sthash.g8EfiqKB.dpuf

Because his parents didn't teach him the difference. They might even have told him, like a neighbor of mine told her grandson, that the new baby would "come out of Mommy's foot."

*EYEROLL*

originally posted by: Logarock

originally posted by: Moresby

originally posted by: Logarock
a reply to: Moresby

The school around here has an opt out and you must go stand out in the hall if you find any material offensive and don't want to participate.

If you have a problem with that. Contact the school. And if that doesn't work go to the next school board meeting.

But, frankly, I bet it's a process that the kids, being kids, totally abuse.

.

I only know of one case my son told me about. They were showing kids a film about, of all people for 5th graders to be learning about......Rasputin. Two kids left the room over some of the elements of the case.

But his evil genius still fascinates the entire world!

Anyway it smacks of some agenda

And what "agenda" would teaching about Rasputin bring? The hemophilia treating, White Russian, Christian mystic agenda?

Sounds like your kind of people!

originally posted by: Logarock

I work with then and don't bother them......but teach my kid that it is not ok to put your friends body parts where they don't belong. Real simple. As long as folks are not violating your civil rights don't worry about what they are telling their kids at home.

Hmmm. Wasn't addressing that to you, but ... they're not teaching your kid about the mechanics of sex. Watch the videos; deal with reality.

And frankly, nothing I've said here could possibly be construed that I'm "worrying about" what you teach your kids at home. You're absolutely free, as I've pointed out here, to inculcate your kids into whatever belief/religious system you like ... so your comment seems pointless and spurious directed at me.

a reply to: Moresby


Well conveniently leave out my reasoning which had zero to do with your suggestion. As far as Mr. Rasputin, had he been a homosexual he would be given wider understanding these day as.....misunderstood. LOL

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: Logarock

I work with then and don't bother them......but teach my kid that it is not ok to put your friends body parts where they don't belong. Real simple. As long as folks are not violating your civil rights don't worry about what they are telling their kids at home.

Hmmm. Wasn't addressing that to you, but ... they're not teaching your kid about the mechanics of sex. Watch the videos; deal with reality.

And frankly, nothing I've said here could possibly be construed that I'm "worrying about" what you teach your kids at home. You're absolutely free, as I've pointed out here, to inculcate your kids into whatever belief/religious system you like ... so your comment seems pointless and spurious directed at me.

Oh I disagree with everything you say here. You most certainly do worry about what some folks teach their kids at home and your post most certainly could be construed as aggravated.

originally posted by: Logarock


Oh I disagree with everything you say here. You most certainly do worry about what some folks teach their kids at home and your post most certainly could be construed as aggravated.

Thanks for sharing your opinion of my opinion in spite of what I'm clearly stating.

How exactly is your (incorrect) opinion of my opinion relevant to the topic at hand again?

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: txinfidel

Well I suppose you think purposely offending people and being obnoxious is that much better?

Kids know their gender-identity as toddlers. They know their sexual orientation by 9 or 10. Deal with it.
Other kids will deal with it just fine. It IS the adults - the homophobes and Bible-thumping idiots who cause this kind of strife and teach their children hatred, intolerance, and arrogance.

Hay, these days everybody's thumping something. All sorts of idiots out there. And the Phobes! A phobia for this and a phobia for that, here a thumper, there a thumper, some thump this and some thump that. Cant we all just get along? LOL