African shaman performing levitation

Originally posted by Xtrozero
Paul,

You need to answer my question as to why someone with this ability will not do it in a controlled environment free of variables.

I already posted a link to that, the one on Matthew Manning and Uri Geller. It was conducted under controlled laboratory conditions. Those who reject it only show us that their prejudice is greater than their quest for truth. When one comes up against such bias, it is best to not bother addressing their ignorance. It isn't worth the effort.

Originally posted by Xtrozero
I and every other person here would not need years of understanding if we had one person actually use these gifts in an environment free of extraneous variables and confounding.
As example: I would set up an experiment with different level platforms in a controlled environment. I would have the subject wear just shorts for modesty and let him levitate at will on any of the platforms. If he was able then we could all agree it is real.

Outside of the fact that experiments have already been done, you will have a hard time getting people who have a Gift of PK to be motivated to participate. Doing so would immediately put them in a negative light.

Why?

Because as this and related threads have clearly indicated, those who have a Gift of PK and who don't immediately go out and "save babies" are condemned.

As with most people, telekinetics wish to avoid public scrutiny. They are generally not motivated to "save babies" but to make lots of money, have lots of women, and have lots of popularity.

The experienced mystics who are selfless and who do understand the dynamics of telekinesis, like myself, and who are willing to explain it to those who are ready to listen, have to constantly put up with the hostility and bias of the inexperienced and closed-minded.

Granted, in doing so, my own growth accelerates. That is MY motivation to try to explain it but even that wanes over time.

So you have a situation whereby those who have a Gift of PK are not interested in the truth to be known and those who can and do explain it are heavily opposed.

And you wonder why people like Criss Angel don't run out to the nearest parapsychologists in order to be tested under strict laboratory conditions.

The truth be told, they simply aren't interested.

Originally posted by Paul_Richard

Outside of the fact that experiments have already been done, you will have a hard time getting people who have a Gift of PK to be motivated to participate. Doing so would immediately put them in a negative light.

Why?

Because as this and related threads have clearly indicated, those who have a Gift of PK and who don't immediately go out and "save babies" are condemned.

As with most people, telekinetics wish to avoid public scrutiny. They are generally not motivated to "save babies" but to make lots of money, have lots of women, and have lots of popularity.

The experienced mystics who are selfless and who do understand the dynamics of telekinesis, like myself, and who are willing to explain it to those who are ready to listen, have to constantly put up with the hostility and bias of the inexperienced and closed-minded.

Paul,

First I’m not one of those with “hostility and bias of the inexperienced and closed-minded” but I also do not look at every magic trick like a five year old does, and so I need more than just an incomplete video or a video that someone’s own production company makes.

In the 70s I know of the experiments done with Psychic Healer Manning and there are other healers around the world that science cannot explain their skills. This is great and a step in the right direction, but with Geller it was more of a hit or miss type of thing and though one could say something is happening he was not really able to do a lot with that something.

The other factor is bending objects is also a trick. I have no powers and I can bend a spoon in a way that you will swear it was done with my mind. Factual data on killing cancer cells in a Petri dish with Psychic healing is not a trick, but that doesn’t explain all these magicians that have come up in the last few years with all these great abilities that put old Uri to shame.

Tests from the 70s is not a done deal and results were no were near what these guys are doing today. When someone does extensive tests in the scientific world and gets positive results it is not considered credible until other independent groups can get the same results. The most important part of any experiment is the exact documentation of it so it can be followed and duplicated. This is extremely critical in any experiment.

Also just because Manning shows some powers to heal does not mean a shaman or anyone else has the ability to levitate or put their hand through solid objects. Your word as some expert in this field is not good enough and so I need to see the Petri dish so to speak and I would think that you would want to see it to.

Here is a quote from the James Randi Foundation

“At JREF, we offer a one-million-dollar prize to anyone who can show, under proper observing conditions, evidence of any paranormal, supernatural, or occult power or event. The JREF does not involve itself in the testing procedure, other than helping to design the protocol and approving the conditions under which a test will take place. All tests are designed with the participation and approval of the applicant. In most cases, the applicant will be asked to perform a relatively simple preliminary test of the claim, which if successful, will be followed by the formal test. Preliminary tests are usually conducted by associates of the JREF at the site where the applicant lives. Upon success in the preliminary testing process, the "applicant" becomes a "claimant."

To date, no one has ever passed the preliminary tests.”


My main question is, how do we determine the real from the fake if no one is willing to use their powers in a controlled environment? I can do the levitation just like the Shaman did using my pole theory with camera angles to hide the pole. Unless we are willing to do it where a pole or any other prop cannot be used we cannot weed out the fakes, and bring this into the mainstream as real.

[edit on 6-9-2007 by Xtrozero]

Originally posted by Xtrozero
First I’m not one of those with “hostility and bias of the inexperienced and closed-minded” but I also do not look at every magic trick like a five year old does, and so I need more than just an incomplete video or a video that someone’s own production company makes.

What you need is experience

Originally posted by Xtrozero
In the 70s I know of the experiments done with Psychic Healer Manning and there are other healers around the world that science cannot explain their skills. This is great and a step in the right direction, but with Geller it was more of a hit or miss type of thing and though one could say something is happening he was not really able to do a lot with that something.

Science cannot explain their skills because science refuses to accept an energy that cannot be measured or duplicated in a laboratory. But that energy does cause things to happen - like healings - regardless.

It is like someone who discovers a new form of plasma but refuses to believe that it exists because it does not behave like electricity or conventional forms of plasma. That is the stumbling block that many have with this. They refuse to accept something that does not fit within their paradigm of what they think should be...not what is.

Originally posted by Xtrozero
The other factor is bending objects is also a trick. I have no powers and I can bend a spoon in a way that you will swear it was done with my mind.

I highly doubt that.

All I have to do is be around someone with genuine telekinetic ability and I will feel that energy. If I don't feel it, then it is likely just an illusion.

There are other ways to tell as well.

Originally posted by Xtrozero
Factual data on killing cancer cells in a Petri dish with Psychic healing is not a trick, but that doesn’t explain all these magicians that have come up in the last few years with all these great abilities that put old Uri to shame.

Not really.

I haven't heard of any magicians in recent years that can bend eating utensils in a film, then have that film shown on television, and then have people report that when they saw the taped footage their eating utensils would bend too

Another ATS-er stated that Uri Geller and David Blaine are friends and that the former confirms the latter as a genuine telekinetic. Blaine has shown more Chi ability than Geller of late, and Criss Angel has demonstrated more Chi ability than either of them.

Originally posted by Xtrozero
Tests from the 70s is not a done deal and results were no were near what these guys are doing today.

What it does show is that under strict laboratory conditions, Matthew Manning and Uri Geller demonstrated genuine psychokinetic ability. To state that others in the present have more PK ability than they had is missing the point.

Originally posted by Xtrozero
When someone does extensive tests in the scientific world and gets positive results it is not considered credible until other independent groups can get the same results.

There are problems in getting that, which I addressed earlier.

Originally posted by Xtrozero
The most important part of any experiment is the exact documentation of it so it can be followed and duplicated. This is extremely critical in any experiment.

This is the dilemma of parapsychologists everywhere. They may get someone with a PK Gift but they will not be able to easily duplicate it, if only for the reason that it is very hard to find anyone that has a Gift and who is willing to be tested. Decades ago they wanted to test Sai Baba but he refused. I would be willing to bet that our Shaman friend, Derren Brown, Cyril Takayama, David Blaine, and Criss Angel would also refuse to be tested.

Does that mean that PK doesn't exist?

No.

It just means that outside of the initial successful testing years ago, that it is very difficult to replicate PK results.

Originally posted by Xtrozero
Also just because Manning shows some powers to heal does not mean a shaman or anyone else has the ability to levitate or put their hand through solid objects.

If you study up on this, as I have, you will learn that the greater the degree of energy that is being channeled, the broader the manifestations. For example, if you have someone who has demonstrated levitation ability, then that person most likely also has a Gift of Healing. The opposite is true as well. Moreover, when you have someone who can teleport himself about, then levitation and basic healing ability, which are lesser manifestations of Qi energy, are also within the parameters of that particular Gift.

But you would not know the above unless you studied it at length.

Originally posted by Xtrozero
Your word as some expert in this field is not good enough and so I need to see the Petri dish so to speak and I would think that you would want to see it to.

Get some experience

Originally posted by Xtrozero
Here is a quote from the James Randi Foundation

Don't even bother.

Randi, like Penn, is a fool.

You might as well quote Bozo the Clown or Donald Duck.

Their opinions are meaningless to me and they are terrible researchers.

Originally posted by Paul_Richard

It is like someone who discovers a new form of plasma but refuses to believe that it exists because it does not behave like electricity or conventional forms of plasma. That is the stumbling block that many have with this. They refuse to accept something that does not fit within their paradigm of what they think should be...not what is.

If there was a new form of plasma wouldn’t it be nice if it was tested to make sure even if we didn’t understand how it worked?

I’m not here to deny that PK exists, but I do deny the type of media used to validate the “proof” of its existence. I can see how the Criss posts have gone 1400 plus, and I guess I'm through with this debate with you for you are unwilling to even see a small shred of my view that all I need is for one of these guys to levitate a few inches outside of the environment THEY setup and not on a video they created.

That is all I ask…


[edit on 6-9-2007 by Xtrozero]

Prehaps I came off to strongly here.. Prehaps I seem as if I close my mind to everything you said Paul_Richard.. You notice I didnt add you as a foe, or ignore you.. I thank you for the energy you have put forth, and the effort you have made to keep an open mind..

Look after a good nights rest I was able to let my mind go for a little bit..
Sure some of the things I said might have gone one way, yet its only to concerns to this video.. This Shaman, and other self proclaimed people..

I love to romance many ideas, and do keep an open mind for such things.
Yet I do not allow myself to get sucked in by sertin things..

Thus if you dont understand where I am comming from that is fine, I know in my heart where I stand. I know I am not some close minded person who only see this world threw a narrow spectrum.

Tho I do base most my belifes on mainstream science.. However the case is.. I look at this Shaman the same way I look at people like NASA..

There is more than we know about alot of stuff, I know man!! I dont discredit the thoughts you have, I just sense a fake when I see one, sorry if that makes me soo "close minded".

But it makes me feel comfortable in my little world to know in my heart that some one isnt getting one over on me. Sometimes I want to play hero and say no its fake.. When this thread has clearly taught me something.. its a good thing.. Its sometimes better to play "bad guy" to make it seem like you are part of a pack. like wolfs.. no pun intended.

So I will leave this thread with a good mood, and not be all uptight about this stuff.. IF you want to belive in this guy thats okay. But some will be more like my mind set, and not take everything we see at face value..

Not even places like NASA!! But we can still base some things we know on solid objective information we have at the ready.. MOst the time that info doesnt do us much good does it? As everyone has their ways.. Much like you cant teach an old dog new tricks..

I belive!!! Just not in this Shaman guy here.. bottom line.

Originally posted by Xtrozero
If there was a new form of plasma wouldn’t it be nice if it was tested to make sure even if we didn’t understand how it worked?

Absolutely

But the nature of this energy is such that it cannot be tested through traditional scientific means. That's the problem. This is why I avoided becoming a parapsychologist. Better to work with and improve upon what one knows as an innovative or progressive mystic than to try to work within the confining parameters of a science that cannot prove directly what experience has showed me to exist.

We know - well, some of us - that that energy exists, through observation of its effect and through direct experience. That is, even if we cannot measure it with instrumentation or replicate it in a laboratory.

Originally posted by Xtrozero
I’m not here to deny that PK exists, but I do deny the type of media used to validate the “proof” of its existence. I can see how the Criss posts have gone 1400 plus, and I guess I'm through with this debate with you for you are unwilling to even see a small shred of my view that all I need is for one of these guys to levitate a few inches outside of the environment THEY setup and not on a video they created.

Evidence of that general kind has already been gathered in the Uri Geller and Matthew Manning experiments I provided a link to earlier. These feats cannot easily be duplicated. But for a study that was conducted under strict laboratory conditions, then that definitely fits the bill.

reply to post by zysin5

Thoughtful post zysin5.

It's funny but the announcer in the Shaman video actually says that there are no props and speculates about the energy that is providing the levitation.

Originally posted by Paul_Richard
Evidence of that general kind has already been gathered in the Uri Geller and Matthew Manning experiments I provided a link to earlier. These feats cannot easily be duplicated. But for a study that was conducted under strict laboratory conditions, then that definitely fits the bill.

So it is a done deal? Uri and Matthew are all we need to say this shaman really levitated, or any of the magicians that do it regularly for their shows? My friend, they duplicate it on cue for their shows, but as I said I do not trust the way it is presented to represent undeniable proof. What I ask for is really not much, but it is critical to ensure what they do is the real thing.

In the Shaman video does it not bother you that they never show his back in anyway even with two cameras?

I for one whole heartedly agree with Paul Richard, his posts are well phrased and thought out. I also agree with most if not all of the statements he has set forth thus far. He was referring to pk and speaking of surrounding energy; As I stated as well the levitation is accomplished by using magnets in the surrounding energy, and utilizing the magnetic resonance of it.
by utilizing this resonance nearly anything is able to be accomplished.

Uri Geller is a bad example as he is a fraud. Mr. Gellar has been debunked to death. Also, he has never been able to duplicate his "abilities" under a true scientific controlled situation.

Here is a video clip of James Randi debunking Uri Geller and Peter Popoff for good measure.

There are plenty of other examples showing Uri Geller being debunked.

Originally posted by Paul_Richard
But the nature of this energy is such that it cannot be tested through traditional scientific means. That's the problem. This is why I avoided becoming a parapsychologist. Better to work with and improve upon what one knows as an innovative or progressive mystic than to try to work within the confining parameters of a science that cannot prove directly what experience has showed me to exist.

Maybe you should've gotten into Quantum Physics! Things like the Uncertainty Principle and Observer Effect make things like what this Shaman does a potential possibility. Thought manifesting on reality basically.

Heh, just today I read about how a plane wasn't starting, so they sacrificed a couple goats on the runway and then it started working (this was in India I believe - where else would they sacrifice animals to get something to work?). An example of belief effecting outcome.

[edit on 9/6/2007 by Kruel]

Here is a video just in case someone wants to resurrect James Hydrick as someone with "abilities".

The video is very entertaining. A must see if you like catching frauds.

www.youtube.com...

mY 2 CENTS

1. How convenient that he has to wait until dark to levitate. If he can levitate he should be able to do it any time of the day.
2. Why can he only levitate in one spot. I would think if someone could really levitate they could move a few feet to the left, right forward and back.
3. Funny how there had to be a fire ring also. I believe that was to get our conscious mind off of the person itself.
4. I'm not saying it is totally impossible to levitate because my belief is nothing is impossible. Just because I have never seen a ghost does not mean there are no ghosts.
5. The one way I would think that someone may be able to levitate is being in the exact spot in line with the north and south pole (magnetic field) and maybe lined with a full moon correctly. I'm not sure just throwing something out there.
6. I'm the type that has to see it to believe it. And then I would still be scepticle.

Originally posted by agent violet
I for one whole heartedly agree with Paul Richard, his posts are well phrased and thought out. I also agree with most if not all of the statements he has set forth thus far. He was referring to pk and speaking of surrounding energy; As I stated as well the levitation is accomplished by using magnets in the surrounding energy, and utilizing the magnetic resonance of it.
by utilizing this resonance nearly anything is able to be accomplished.

You talk as if is a rather common event to do. Have you witness this in person to work as you are saying? And can anyone do it with practice?
Also how big does the magnets need to be. I do not get a visual when you say it. Can you explain in more detail how you set it up?

[edit on 7-9-2007 by Xtrozero]

I was really just throwing my thoughts out there. I have never witnessed nor tried to levitate the way I said. I guess my thought process was if the negative and positive magnetice poles meet at the same spot (you know like with magnets. The negative and positive won't come together) that could cause some sort of levitation. I don't think it would work but that is what I came up with. Most likely it is totally off the wall and take it for what it's worth.

Originally posted by Xtrozero
So it is a done deal? Uri and Matthew are all we need to say this shaman really levitated, or any of the magicians that do it regularly for their shows?

Of course not.

Some are illusions and some are the real thing. The key is learning discrimination, which in part comes with experience.

Originally posted by Xtrozero
My friend, they duplicate it on cue for their shows, but as I said I do not trust the way it is presented to represent undeniable proof. What I ask for is really not much, but it is critical to ensure what they do is the real thing.

I doubt our Shaman friend can do it on cue and on a regular basis.

For example, years ago Uri Geller was caught with a device up his sleeve that helped him manifest an illusion of telekinesis. He did this because he was expected to perform "on cue" and the energy was not always there for him. Which means that the energy did not come from within but from without. Does this mean that Uri Geller didn't have a genuine Gift of PK? No. It just means that Gifts of the Spirit are usually not activated at will, as they stem from people on the Other Side, not from machines.

Originally posted by Xtrozero
In the Shaman video does it not bother you that they never show his back in anyway even with two cameras?

You bet

I mentioned this.

He falls to the ground ever so ungracefully. If he were behind the effect and not a group of spirits, I doubt he would have ended it that way.

Basic psychology.

If he could, he would have flown around.

Originally posted by agent violet
I for one whole heartedly agree with Paul Richard, his posts are well phrased and thought out. I also agree with most if not all of the statements he has set forth thus far. He was referring to pk and speaking of surrounding energy;

Thanks agent violet.



[edit on 7-9-2007 by Paul_Richard]

Originally posted by Kruel
Maybe you should've gotten into Quantum Physics! Things like the Uncertainty Principle and Observer Effect make things like what this Shaman does a potential possibility. Thought manifesting on reality basically.

Thanks.

Where Quantum Physics leaves off...Metaphysics begins. And I am well versed on the latter.

You would absolutely LOVE the Quantum Physics they address in The Secret on DVD.

Originally posted by Kruel
Heh, just today I read about how a plane wasn't starting, so they sacrificed a couple goats on the runway and then it started working (this was in India I believe - where else would they sacrifice animals to get something to work?). An example of belief effecting outcome.

Not something I would suggest but an interesting story.

The Law of Attraction or Law of Vibration works much better when one does not kill animals for sacrifice in the process.

But hey...that is just my opinion.

Agent violet is right in that levitation without a Gift can be done through electromagnetism. Specifically, through gravity-wave technology. Real cutting edge stuff. But I hardly think that our Shaman friend has access to anything like that.

For those who do, check out what has come to be termed flying humanoids:

An Unidentified 'Flying Humanoid' Filmed Above Santa Monica?

Mexican Flying Humanoid

again, sorry to say but good ole URI is a fraud. Every one of his "gifts" has been oh so thoroughly debunked. He has NEVER been able to repeat any of his magic tricks as part of a controlled scientific experiment. I have posted video of URI being debunked, please feel free to watch.

Long live The Amazing Randi !!!

As before the Shaman is a fraud. Magicians do this "trick" all the time.

I saw Uri Geller on television way back in the 1970s and talked at length in the early 1990s with a metaphysical author and well-known UFO investigator who befriended him. The latter was a source of some really great anecdotes

As far as Uri having genuine PK ability, I again refer to the link I posted about him and Manning a while back. Very few who have a Gift of PK can do it all of the time. They can't turn it on and off like a light switch. That is the nature of having a Gift.

As for The Unamazing Randi, I simply don't consider him to be credible. That's all I have to say about that.

I saw Uri Geller on television way back in the 1970s and talked at length in the early 1990s with a metaphysical author and well-known UFO investigator who befriended him. The latter was a source of some really great anecdotes

As far as Uri having genuine PK ability, I again refer to the link I posted about him and Manning a while back. Very few who have a Gift of PK can do it all of the time. They can't turn it on and off like a light switch. That is the nature of having a Gift.

As for The Unamazing Randi, I simply don't consider him to be credible. That's all I have to say about that.

Ok fair enough, although there should be no reason why anyone with a gift can't use it on command but lets assume he can't do it every time. URI could NEVER do it under scientifically controlled circumstances. So it's irrelevant whether or not he could use his gift every time under controlled circumstances as he could NEVER use it under controlled circumstances.

What has Randi ever done to make him not credible?