African shaman performing levitation

Originally posted by jfj123
Ok fair enough, although there should be no reason why anyone with a gift can't use it on command but lets assume he can't do it every time.

It simply doesn't work that way and the reason for that is because the energy does not come from within but from a discarnate community of spirits who use their combined energies in The Light to manifest psychokinesis (PK).

So it is with the Shaman levitating in the video.

Originally posted by jfj123
URI could NEVER do it under scientifically controlled circumstances. So it's irrelevant whether or not he could use his gift every time under controlled circumstances as he could NEVER use it under controlled circumstances.

Not true.

Related information on Matthew Manning

More On Manning Which Also Addresses His Connection to Uri Geller

'I believe this process. I believe that you actually broke the fork here and now.' (Professor John Taylor, particle physicist and Professor of Mathematics at King's College London on BBC TV's Dimbleby Talk-In with Uri Geller in 1973.)

Source Article

Conclusive Proof?

Originally posted by jfj123
What has Randi ever done to make him not credible?

Like the late Phil Klaus (well-known UFO debunker that was suspected for many years to be a government disinformation agent and who is now probably not in a pleasant emotional and spiritual state), Randi ignores an abundance of evidence and makes conclusions that are based not on objective analysis but on prejudice.

Similar to the problem Sigmund Freud had, still considered by many to be the father of modern psychiatry.

Sigmund didn't believe in God, in a Higher Power, in life before life, in life after death, in the soul, or the discarnate dimensions. So all his conclusions, in his entire paradigm of psychiatry and psychology, are distorted from that inherent bias

As any experienced Spiritual Medium like myself will tell you, when one goes to sleep at night, one part of the brain does not "turn on" to produce dreams - which is what Freud espoused. What really happens is that when one is resting, one becomes more receptive to telepathic messages from people on the Other Side and that these messages are usually presented to us symbolically. Most dreams are not helpful or spiritual because most people in the discarnate dimensions, as here, are not devoted to The Light.

The many lost and tortured souls who are drugged into incoherence and paralysis, and often strapped down in mental institutions because they hear voices in their head, are there because Sigmund Freud pushed the idea that hearing voices was a sign of mental illness - because he harbored the prejudice against the idea that spirits exist

Hearing voices is not a sign of mental illness; it is a sign that someone is open enough intuitively to receive and recognize telepathic messages when not asleep. The term for it in parapsychology - that emerged after Freud's death - is clairaudience.

A much better treatment for them would be to embrace a totally organic diet and take the right supplements of Brazilian Coral Calcium, distilled Omega 3-6-9, and B Vitamins. They don't get that in mental institutions. If they did, they would not need to be there in the first place

Oftentimes murderers and rapists, when caught, will claim that they were only listening to the voices in their head. Yeah, there were voices in their head all right. Those voices represent perverted discarnates or common spirits who work through the spiritually retarded in the flesh in order to further their sadistic pleasure. Those who are strong enough emotionally-spiritually, and who are not drugged and/or sick in some way, are able to reject and overcome negative influences from the Other Side - at least by not acting upon suggestions of sadism. But the psychiatric community at large is still in the Dark Ages and has not come to the point of understanding the larger perspective. So many clairaudients, even if they have not committed a heinous crime, still rot in mental institutions.

James Randi, like Sigmund Freud and Phil Klaus, is a terrible analyst and a poor researcher. His conclusions are twisted in favor of his paradigm of ignorance.

[edit on 8-9-2007 by Paul_Richard]

paul richard wrote,

It simply doesn't work that way and the reason for that is because the energy does not come from within but from a discarnate community of spirits who use their combined energies in The Light to manifest psychokinesis (PK).

So it is with the Shaman levitating in the video.

Interesting information. Please prove this using scientific principles.

Originally posted by Paul_Richard
It simply doesn't work that way and the reason for that is because the energy does not come from within but from a discarnate community of spirits who use their combined energies in The Light to manifest psychokinesis (PK).

So it is with the Shaman levitating in the video.

Originally posted by jfj123
Interesting information. Please prove this using scientific principles.

I will be happy to do so.

But first you have to find me an instrument that can measure the energy of Spirit. When you have that in hand, you can then use scientific principles to prove it.

But to save you some frustration, I will offer you the illumination that every learned parapsychologist already knows:

There are no devices that can directly measure Prana, Ki, Chi, The Holy Spirit, etc.

The way that one learns about it and confirms it for oneself is:

1. Through direct experience in channeling it, as in a healing capacity.
2. Through direct experience in receiving it through an incarnate medium, which could also be in a healing capacity.
3. Through observation of those who are receiving it, i.e., by studying the effect it has on people.
4. By communicating with those on the Other Side (i.e., on the sixth and seventh planes) who are evolved enough, knowledgeable enough, trustworthy, credible, and who are willing to share their higher awareness on this particular subject. If you want the facts about an energy that is not physically-based, then you have to go to experts who are also not physically-based

(I don't think you are ready to pursue this particular route but I list it here for those experienced mystics who are.)

There will never be any direct scientific proof of telekinesis, simply because there is no device in a lab that can measure an energy that does not stem from the physical universe.

But it exists nonetheless

[edit on 9-9-2007 by Paul_Richard]

If it doesn't stem from the physical universe, it can't be used in the physical universe. If it can be used by physical beings, it must cause a change in a physical being. If it causes a change, that change can be measured.

Also, using a device to measure an energy isn't the only way to prove the existence of something. If something paranormal can be performed within the confines of a true scientifically controlled experiment, that is evidence. Unfortunately, to date, this has NEVER happened.

For those of you who believe shaman guy is for real...

Why do you believe what he is doing is NOT a trick but what Chris Angel and a host of other magicians do, IS a trick???

Is it just because he's dressed like a shaman?

Originally posted by jfj123
Why do you believe what he is doing is NOT a trick but what Chris Angel and a host of other magicians do, IS a trick???

You are making the incorrect assumption that all that Criss Angel does is an illusion, which is not the case. A lot of what he does, which he has said publicly, is real.

Originally posted by jfj123
If it doesn't stem from the physical universe, it can't be used in the physical universe.

That is a conclusion not based on experience and objective analysis but on ignorance and bias. And it makes for a poor researcher into the paranormal.

Originally posted by jfj123
If it can be used by physical beings, it must cause a change in a physical being. If it causes a change, that change can be measured.

On the other hand...that is an accurate appraisal

As I stated before, again and again, one cannot measure Prana directly with instrumentation but one can measure the effect it has on people and objects.

Originally posted by jfj123
Also, using a device to measure an energy isn't the only way to prove the existence of something.

It is one of the ways to prove the existence of something.

For example, a Geiger counter detects and gauges radioactivity, thereby proving its existence.

Prana or Chi cannot be measured with physical devices. They tried to do it with John Chang and it didn't work because none of their instrumentation could detect anything. But the effects of his Chi were obvious to all the researchers involved. Ditto for those who tested Uri Geller decades ago.

Originally posted by jfj123
If something paranormal can be performed within the confines of a true scientifically controlled experiment, that is evidence. Unfortunately, to date, this has NEVER happened.

Actually, a "true scientifically controlled experiment" was conducted in 1974, as I referenced a number of times. Once again. You refuse to accept it because you have an emotional block with embracing anything that cannot be directly measured in a laboratory. That is a failing on your part, not on the more progressive scientists, officers, and physicists who concluded decades ago that Uri Geller and/or Matthew Manning have psychokinetic (PK) ability.

Traditional scientific methods will always FAIL to explain and measure Prana because it does not stem from the physical universe, but from the discarnate dimensions - another point that you have an emotional block in accepting.

But it is the absolute truth nonetheless.

[edit on 9-9-2007 by Paul_Richard]

reply to post by Paul_Richard


It is amusing that the page you link too has an example of Uri Gellar and Dr Owens in an old experimental session in the 1970's. A modern scientific test would not fall for that hogwash

I find it amusing, in that, your hero Mr Angel is on record as saying he believes Uri Gellar does not have paranormal powers

Perhaps Mr Angel is lying about that too eh? How can you trust the man?

Chi TK exists only in the minds of a few people...imho.

As I have said before somewhere...Illusion is all about playing the mind. Some people give Illusionists a head start

OK you gave me a link to a site called URI-GELLAR.COM. OH MY GOD!!!
How biased is that info going to be. Talk about the fox guarding the hen house!!!
Why don't you show me a link from a place like National Geographic or Discover, etc... showing a true scientifically controlled experiment.

It's honestly pointless talking about chi and prana since you cannot prove they exist. You say that they have an effect. If this is true then the effect can either directly or indirectly be measured. If it cannot then no effect exists.

Also, please provide a link to a video where chris angel claims to be a real magical being.

Originally posted by jfj123
OK you gave me a link to a site called URI-GELLAR.COM. OH MY GOD!!!
How biased is that info going to be. Talk about the fox guarding the hen house!!!
Why don't you show me a link from a place like National Geographic or Discover, etc... showing a true scientifically controlled experiment.

It's honestly pointless talking about chi and prana since you cannot prove they exist. You say that they have an effect. If this is true then the effect can either directly or indirectly be measured. If it cannot then no effect exists.

Also, please provide a link to a video where chris angel claims to be a real magical being.

Why does it need to be measured? I just want it done under controlled conditions. Then at least we can say something is there, and we can weed out the fake from the real that is if there is any real chi or whatever you want to call it.

Just give me two independent groups following the same protocols and get positive results and I'll be a believer 100%.

Originally posted by agent violet
i'm going to have to say that it is indeed real.
i cannot see some tribesman, ahem shaman, practicing trickery

nonsense. in fact, many of the "magic tricks" we are familiar with today were adopted from the gurus and shamans from asia, india, africa and etc. for example, the Indian Rope trick has been around since at least 1300.

Originally posted by something smells
It is amusing that the page you link too has an example of Uri Gellar and Dr Owens in an old experimental session in the 1970's. A modern scientific test would not fall for that hogwash

That is nothing more than a cop out.

YOU come up with a better test and YOU conduct it yourself.

It is easy to criticize someone else's tests and conclusions when you are not involved in doing anything yourself

Originally posted by something smells
I find it amusing, in that, your hero Mr Angel is on record as saying he believes Uri Gellar does not have paranormal powers

Why would I think Criss Angel is my hero?

Do you put people with paranormal abilities on a pedestal and consider them to be heroes?

There are much better definitions of what a hero is and stands for.

Sorry...you are not even in the running.

Also, it would be naive to expect to get the truth from a magician.

And I would like to see a credible reference link for that supposed comment you stated that he made about Uri Geller not having any "paranormal powers."

Originally posted by something smells
Perhaps Mr Angel is lying about that too eh? How can you trust the man?

Why would one expect virtue and/or honesty from an illusionist?

Perhaps it is due to inexperience.

Originally posted by something smells
Chi TK exists only in the minds of a few people...imho.

Your humble opinion needs to do much more research, as it exists in many places and not just in minds.

Originally posted by something smells
As I have said before somewhere...Illusion is all about playing the mind. Some people give Illusionists a head start

You are absolutely clueless in being able to distinguish between a mere illusionist and a magician who also has a Gift of Prana. So one can state that those with that problem are discernment challenged and that it in fact is all in their mind.

Originally posted by jfj123
OK you gave me a link to a site called URI-GELLAR.COM. OH MY GOD!!!
How biased is that info going to be. Talk about the fox guarding the hen house!!!
Why don't you show me a link from a place like National Geographic or Discover, etc... showing a true scientifically controlled experiment.

It was a "true scientifically controlled experiment."

Shhhh...don't tell anyone, not even yourself, but it wasn't conducted by Uri Geller.

The people that testify as to the validity of Uri Geller (and Matthew Manning) having psychokinetic abilities are not Uri and Matthew, but various scientists, military officers, physicists, etc.

The source of the information is more important that where the material is listed.

And I am sure that if a conclusive test was listed in a non-Uri Geller.com page, you would simply come up with other excuses to further your ignorance and bias.

Like about this...

The Study of Geller Type Phenomenon by Professor Arthur Ellison

And this...

I have spent more than five years carefully studying the non-experimental evidence of parapsychology -- in fact, just that portion of it which is most contemptuously and adamantly dismissed by those academics....I started with the expectation that the received wisdom would be supported, and that my belief in the relative worthlessness of the material would merely be better-informed. But the evidence bowled me over. The more I learned about it, the weaker the traditional skeptical counter-hypotheses seemed, and the more clearly I realized to which extent skepticism may be fueled by ignorance. I was forced to confront the fact that I could find no decent reasons for doubting a great deal of strange testimony. It became clear to me that the primary source of my reluctance to embrace the evidence was my discomfort with it. I knew that I had to accept the evidence, or else admit that my avowed philosophical commitment to the truth was a sham.

Source: Professor Stephen Braude's Mind Over Matter Article (Bolded words for emphasis.)

More from the above site...

Perhaps the most interesting finding related to a platinum ring that spontaneously developed a fissure in Geller's presence – although he was not touching it. This ring was analyzed by physicist Wilbur Franklin with a scanning electron microscope. He claimed that adjacent areas of the ring indicated totally different conditions resembling (1) fracture at a very low temperature, such as with liquid nitrogen, (2) distortion as if by a mechanical shear, and (3) melting at a very high temperature. Although the ring was fractured at room temperatures, conditions (1) and (3) were observed at locations only one hundredth of an inch apart. Franklin pointed out there was no known method to duplicate such findings at room temperature – and that such findings were extremely difficult to fabricate even by known laboratory techniques.

(Bolded words for emphasis.)

And yet another site...

Again, there is a lot of good evidence for psychokinesis, both from spontaneous experiences and from qualitative and quantitative experimental investigations. Also in this case there are persons with a special gift or talent for PK or paranormal healing and this gift may also manifest at an early age, during childhood or puberty. Children may find out spontaneously that they have a special impact on their physical environment. In the 1970's there was a lot of attention in the media for the claimed psychokinetic abilities of the Israeli paranormal star Uri Geller. He gave many demonstrations of his possible gift on television, supposedly being mental objects such as spoons and forks by sheer mind power or stopping or repairing watches. Although his performances have always remained very controversial, even among many parapsychologists, there is also serious experimental evidence that his gift is indeed real. Geller also seemed to cause a so-called Geller-effect in others who had seen his shows. I personally recall that when I was a child many of my peers had seen Geller's shows and some of them claimed that strange things had happened at their homes.

(Bolded words for emphasis.)
Source: Research Into The Paranormal Experiences Of Children

Originally posted by jfj123
It's honestly pointless talking about chi and prana since you cannot prove they exist. You say that they have an effect.

Yes...one can only measure the effect. And those effects have been measured by various researchers and scientists.

Originally posted by jfj123
Also, please provide a link to a video where chris angel claims to be a real magical being.

It is wise not to take at face value everything that Criss Angel says.

But if you want a link...

Sure... I can oblige.

In the following link, look and listen carefully, as Criss Angel says on FOX News to John Gibson that a lot of what he does is REAL and that a lot of it is an ILLUSION

In case you can't figure out what that means, I will spell it out for you.

He is indirectly stating that he also has a Gift of Prana/Telekinesis/Chi/Ki.

REAL implies Telekinesis

Got it?

Criss Angel Interview On FOX

The Net is a wonderful tool for research.

You should try it sometime.

reply to post by Paul_Richard


Regarding Gellars test, people with more funds and scientific qualifications have shown he is fake on more than one occasion ...that's enough for me. It is not possible nor is it my mission to convert the deluded

Regarding Mr Angels comments about Gellar having no paranormal powers...as you keep saying to people "Do your research!! Maybe CA has agrred to do "Phenomena" to expose Uri....who knows..could be fun!!! I would like a credible reference for Qi TK that exists beyond your mind I know your response "Do your research!!"

I believe it is you sir, that is discernmentally challenged and that is obvious to many who read this boards. But your challenges do not end at just discernment

It is nice that you thought that I was in the running to be a hero but I have no ego to bruise but I feel you have

I have over the months read some of your posts and had been impressed with some of your responses on other threads...for example , with so called mental disease and alleged spirit interaction. Your continual insistence that CA has special powers..that he says himself, he has not got...has made me rethink that appraisal.

As I see it, you cannot prove Qi TK with a dodgy bit of video. Equally you cannot see props in said dodgy videos. So the only "evidence" other than hearsay is the dodgy vids made by CA videographers. Nothing can be proved by these dodgy videos!!

I would have thought someone who seems to be so spiritually aware would be using his gifts more usefully than lurking about on a board that can prove nothing. Going by your performance here your mediumistic shindigs must be an absolute hoot

So as I see it, Qi TK exists because you say it does..mmm..Sorry no cigar!!!
I see at last that you accept that Mr Angel is just a magician and not a practitioner of magick

Keep up the good work I need a bit of light relief every now and then...and I will sleep safer knowing that there are people like you out there gullible enough to buy any crud I wish to sell No wonder the west gets the governments it gets

reply to post by something smells

What can I say to the smell of prejudice?

You just can't fight ignorance and bias with logic, personal experience, testimonial witnesses, and video evidence.

Criss Angel is an illusionist who also occasionally uses his Gift of PK or Prana to perform telekinetic feats that other magicians cannot duplicate simply because they have no such Gift. Uri Geller has been tested and analyzed by various scientists, physicists, etc., over the years who have concluded that he (and Matthew Manning) have psychokinetic abilities. Just as I surmised, no independent website that confirms Uri's Gift will ever be enough to those who are too blinded by ignorance to see the light of truth

What you wish to believe is entirely up to you and I could really care less.

And don't for one minute think that my posts are directed only to illuminate the dark recesses of prejudice and lack of experience. Many come into ATS and BTS to quietly learn from my posts and others who are experienced in this and related areas of life.

And so they will continue.

I was just thinking how funny it would have been if the guy on the other end of the see-saw or lever or whatever just starting pumping the shaman up and down really fast...

Boiing--OUCH!
Boiing--OUCH!
Boiing--OUCH!

Originally posted by yuefo
I was just thinking how funny it would have been if the guy on the other end of the see-saw or lever or whatever just starting pumping the shaman up and down really fast...

Boiing--OUCH!
Boiing--OUCH!
Boiing--OUCH!

You should see the out takes...

Chris Angel doesn't imply he has any psychic abilities. Come on people. He also does stunts in his acts which are real. He picks locks as part of his acts which are real locks.

Maybe you should write Chris Angel and ask him yourself if you don't believe me.

Originally posted by Paul_Richard
What can I say to the smell of prejudice?

But it's the fearful smell of truth that concerns you!!

Originally posted by Paul_Richard
reply to

You just can't fight ignorance and bias with logic, personal experience, testimonial witnesses, and video evidence.

There's the pot calling the kettle

Originally posted by Paul_Richard

Criss Angel is an illusionist

*Clap clap clap* Well done your getting there

Originally posted by Paul_Richard
What you wish to believe is entirely up to you and I could really care less.

Well stop trying to convert people like a psychic evangelist

Originally posted by Paul_Richard
And don't for one minute think that my posts are directed only to illuminate the dark recesses of prejudice and lack of experience. Many come into ATS and BTS to quietly learn from my posts and others who are experienced in this and related areas of life.

You have a very high opinion of yourself sir

Also a lot of people come to ATS and BTS for a good laugh. I just love the way you guys believe this crud. Thank the lord for the gullible, the global market economy needs you

Originally posted by Paul_Richard

And so they will continue.

Yep. I prefer the loonies sitting in their bedrooms looking at this stuff...keeps them off the streets...makes the world safer, if only prez Bush would spend his time looking at ATS. Long may it continue

Personally, I do not think that you are for real. Do you have ulterior motives for your posts?

Still I wish you well and keep up the good work

You have a great career in comedy ahead of you

Enjoy your delusion