Snowden en route from H.K. to Moscow: report

Originally posted by stargatetravels

Originally posted by TritonTaranis
It is fantastic news for Russia & China i agree

Successfully recruiting a NSA Worker to sell them secrets

Successfully creating some more good ole Anti West propaganda for turning the public against there governments

Chinese hackers are probably having a beer right now while trawling over more military programs to copy

Uh huh, you keep listening to fox news ok? You keep believing that you're living in cold war USA in the 60's.

This guy did the right thing, nothing you can say will change that.

LOL

Don't be so ridiculous i don't watch news channels for news, only to see what certain countrys are pushing in there propaganda brainwashing campaigns,

This is a cyberwar/information war between superpowers, this has nothing to do with people exposing privacy issues, try to see past the pathetic cover story, Just the like of Russia & China exposing the weaknesses of Western countries needs to have these program because of internal threats from homegrown terrorists, and using it to bread fear, using it to there advantages

If you just understand this important basic fact you'll understand you're nothing but porns in the games being played, nothing but public opinion to be used against your own governments and your own countries demise... now get out on the streets and riot over the Snowden leaks you sheeple

Russia Today just ran a poll on Snowdon about the NSA spying on people and 74% were outraged but a whopping 16% feared to pass a vote due to being spied on.

Why are heads not rolling or have we all turned into cowards ?

Ghostery for Firefox helps to reduce your footprint and you should all be thinking about using HTTPS for email services, not that it's really or as safe as TPTB want you to think it is, ISP's keep the keys and can do man-in-the middle spying even on HTTPS traffic but it's better than nothing if your not using a VPN already.

reply to post by TritonTaranis


Some good points, but it's still confusing.

He wouldn't need to travel to sell secrets.

Russia and China have plenty of agents in every country with plenty of contacts.

I wonder if Snowden was drugged slowly over time, or if he was hypnotized into these actions?

Does anybody have info about that alleged girlfriend?

Maybe She is the skeleton key to all this intrigue.

Or, maybe Snowden simply snapped from some kind of mental disease.

According to rt's broadcast, his flight is scheduled to leave Moscow in about 12 hours.

Imagine if USAF hijack his plane over the Atlantic and bring him back

Originally posted by NickDC202
reply to post by introV

 

I'd almost hope that this flight is a red herring and he is on a completely different flight to another location.

That's what I think too. If I knew the Chinese could arrest me to turn me over to the US and I had to leave quick, I would not announce my travel plans in detail. Thats the worst thing you can do. This might be just to throw people off the track.

Originally posted by introV
According to rt's broadcast, his flight is scheduled to leave Moscow in about 12 hours.

I thought it was already in Moscow some time ago, although Snowden was not seen

www.reuters.com...

I would like to believe that Snowden has attempted to do a good thing, by calling attention to something that needed addressed. But that's as far as I get because there is so much division regarding the underlying reasoning. But, I appreciate the information.

Much like I would appreciate it if my neighbor informed me that some stranger was in the bushes outside and had their face pressed against my kitchen window watching me. If it turned out that the creeper was the neighborhood watch guy ( who claimed he was only protecting me by watching my every move), it wouldn't fly. And I surely wouldn't get mad at my neighbor for letting me know about it. Now imagine that all my other neighbors up and down the block proclaim that they know he stares at them through their windows all the time and they don't care because they aren't doing anything of interest and he is, after all, the neighborhood watch guy.

Add to that, that some on my street even accuse the nice neighbor of wanting to bring down the watch program for his own nefarious reasons, namely that the nice neighbor is a part of a larger crime ring that wants unchecked access into my home. And, that if I don't accept creeper peering into my home at night, that I am unsafe and inviting even more atrocities into my life. So, nice neighbor is discredited, fears retaliation and moves away... meanwhile, creeper resumes fogging up my window with his warm breath every night.

I'll admit that the more I read the arguments on this thread, the more I doubt that we will ever find truth. Why? Because it seems that we are not to trust or believe anyone or anything. No matter which way we turn, we are being told that we are foolish for turning that way.

For what it's worth, I don't at all blame Snowden for getting out of this country. It's funny to me that people posting under false names criticize someone who drops his cover of secrecy, reveals himself to the world, and puts his life on the line in order to right a wrong. He wouldn't have been able to do that had he stayed. And to expect another human being to face their own mortality for no other reason than to prove something to you, is way easier said than done.

Originally posted by Swills
reply to post by FurvusRexCaeli

 

My only response to your post is laughter but what really makes me giggle is you thinking that the NDAA of 2012 doesn't exist and or gives the USG the power to indefinitely detain Americans. Not only did it give them the power but a NY federal judge even ruled it unconstitutional and did her best to block the act but unfortunately Obama's lawyers found another federal judge to overrule her.

I guess you're not familiar with the actual provisions of the 2012 NDAA. You believe in the conspiracy theory version of the law, instead of the law that was actually passed. It's a bit off topic, but I'll take a few minutes to educate you, when you are done giggling. Here is your first premise:

"they would clearly indefinitely detain him"

Did the 2012 NDAA give the USG authority to detain Edward Snowden? No. The 2012 did not create any detention authorities. The NDAA affirmed the existing authority to detain covered persons under the 2001 Authorization for Use of Military Force. "Covered persons" are defined in section 1021 the 2012 NDAA as

any person as follows:
(1) A person who planned, authorized, committed, or aided
the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001,
or harbored those responsible for those attacks.
(2) A person who was a part of or substantially supported
al-Qaeda, the Taliban, or associated forces that are engaged
in hostilities against the United States or its coalition partners,
including any person who has committed a belligerent act or
has directly supported such hostilities in aid of such enemy
forces.

This definition does not include Snowden. He was not personally involved in the 9/11 attacks. He has not substantially support AQ or the Taliban, nor has he committed a belligerent act in aid of such enemy forces. Moreover, the same section specifies that "nothing in this section shall be construed to affect existing law or authorities relating to the detention of United States citizens." So even if the 2012 NDAA created new detention authorities, those authorities were explicitly limited so as not to include US citizens. PPD-14 affirmed this; the Executive Branch does not consider any US citizen to be a covered person under the 2012 NDAA.

Your second premise was that such detention would be effected under the 2012 NDAA "without due process." This is wrong, as the 2012 NDAA codified due process for detainees in section 1024. If Snowden had been detained under the AUMF (which as we have already seen would not be authorized under existing authorities), he would be entitled to habeas corpus or status review, with counsel, by a military judge.

www.gpo.gov...

reply to post by FurvusRexCaeli

Just a few points, since you're derailing the thread with bulls**t:

1. You are confusing and muxing together sections 1021 and 1022.
   
2. PPD-14 itself only applies to non-US citizens.
   
3. Furthermore, PPD-14 is itself only referring to section 1022.
   

It does not mean that NDAA 2012 section 1021 applies only to non-US citizens.
If that were the case then the entire subject would be moot.

Also see here, midway down the page, the section on The Feinstein-Lee Amendment of the 2013 National Defense Authorization Act.

"A Congressional conference committee tasked with merging the House and Senate versions of the 2013 National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA) [color=#5CB3FF]decided on December 18, 2012 to drop the Feinstein-Lee provision, which would have explicitly barred the military from holding American citizens and permanent residents in indefinite detention without trial as terrorism suspects. There was no reason given for this."

Originally posted by itssomethingyoudid




I'll admit that the more I read the arguments on this thread, the more I doubt that we will ever find truth. Why? Because it seems that we are not to trust or believe anyone or anything. No matter which way we turn, we are being told that we are foolish for turning that way.




For what it's worth, I don't at all blame Snowden for getting out of this country. It's funny to me that people posting under false names criticize someone who drops his cover of secrecy, reveals himself to the world, and puts his life on the line in order to right a wrong. He wouldn't have been able to do that had he stayed. And to expect another human being to face their own mortality for no other reason than to prove something to you, is way easier said than done.

Your first paragraph reminds me of the CIA, TWA 800 video with the not so subliminal banner word in view, with the spoken word on audio, "THERE WAS NO MISSILE" that was pretty much enough I think.
Second paragraph is very true. What we now need to see is what happens next, if Ecuador does grant asylum, will Snowden be now in the Ecuadorean embassy in Moscow, or is he already on his way to Ecuador. He is not yet the subject of extradition from Russia, so if he can get there could it be the best thing? however there were Ecuadorean embassy cars at Moscow airport and whether that was a blind, or that he was taken to the Ecuadorean embassy is not known as he was not seen, but to get to Ecuador is a long way.
Assange is in the Ecuador embassy in London, and pretty much going nowhere. Perhaps the best thing for Snowden is to remain in Ecuador's embassy in Moscow for some time.

As I have said on another message board, THIS IS NOT A MOVIE. In a movie, Snowedman would blow the US Govt cover and to challenge the administration and speaking about the truth. He would do this all by himself. He would either get executed and becoming a martyr. A revolution would start and honoring him. Or he would get pardoned by the Obama administration because of public pressure.

In a real life situation, he would find refuge in a location which is safe for him. A location that could allow him to unload some serious damage. Since his knowledge concerns the world and very global, there is no reason why he would keep it quiet to himself.

Another thing, he is a civilian. He obviously has a different take on patriotism than someone serving in the arm forces. Thank about the 60s.

It's really quite simple.

Snowden let the private citizens of the world know their private information is being collected illegally. This is an affront to the dignity of private citizens and an abuse of human rights. The fact the US government farms out these duties to contractors such as Booz Allen Hamilton adds to this affront.

Dragnet surveillance is an affront and an indignity because it views all citizens as potential criminals waiting to strike. People aren't born guilty and they shouldn't be treated as if they are.

Snowden leaked to hand-picked journalists who he knew he could trust to ensure you were aware of the actions of these governments. He leaked the information he has (1) because it was the right thing to do and, (2) with the aim of provoking as much international outrage as possible. This is what activists do to bring attention to their causes. In this case, it is what is keeping Snowden safe. He is relying on it.

This is why we all sat for three hours in front of computer watching a plane-shaped blip on a screen crawl slowly across a map last night (my time). To keep Snowden safe. This is why we are talking about it now. To keep Snowden safe. This is why Glenn Greenwald and the Washington Post keeps publishing leaks. It is also why a lot of newspapers have been told NOT to publish.

Such attention prevents Obama and friends from taking rash action. As long as enough people make it known that they're watching nothing will happen to Snowden.

If he had stayed in the US and gone to his superiors, the story would never have seen the light of day and he would have disappeared into a black hole, achieving nothing. If he'd stayed in the US, we wouldn't even be having this conversation. The fact we are is a testament to his courage and strength of conscience.

He is not selling secrets to anybody. He is informing people. And if you think the Russian and Chinese governments didn't already know the US was hacking them, you have rocks in your head. The only people that didn't know were the citizens and they are the ones being harmed.

Snowden's leaks were for the benefit of the private citizens of the world, regardless of the country, politics, colour or religion. We all have the same fight. He has given up his life, essentially, to do this. He is a hero.

And TPTB hate him for it.

And Snowden signed a non disclosure agreement. He broke his oath just as Manning did.

And that to you, is more important than finding out that your government is spying on all its citizens far past what the Patriot Act allowed, and even beyond the FISA Amendments Act. Where is the oversight? Congress?

Congress didn't have a clue how many Americans this targeted! What kind of oversight is that.. when you have no idea how the Act you approved is actually working?

Sometimes, you have to look beyond what someone signed. If you don't, one atrocity will be followed by greater ones. And you seem to be willing to happily accept that. The FISA Act should be repealed. There needs to be a lot more oversight than there is now. Snowden is not the villain here.. stop fixating on what he signed.

Kind of reminds me when I joined the Army. They literally yelled at us "Don't READ that.. just sign! Go go!" We had a huge stack of papers to sign.. I didn't read by maybe two sentences of it all. It's not as black and white as you make it out to be.

Originally posted by Archie
It's really quite simple.

Snowden let the private citizens of the world know their private information is being collected illegally. This is an affront to the dignity of private citizens and an abuse of human rights. The fact the US government farms out these duties to contractors such as Booz Allen Hamilton adds to this affront.

Dragnet surveillance is an affront and an indignity because it views all citizens as potential criminals waiting to strike. People aren't born guilty and they shouldn't be treated as if they are.

Snowden leaked to hand-picked journalists who he knew he could trust to ensure you were aware of the actions of these governments. He leaked the information he has (1) because it was the right thing to do and, (2) with the aim of provoking as much international outrage as possible. This is what activists do to bring attention to their causes. In this case, it is what is keeping Snowden safe. He is relying on it.

This is why we all sat for three hours in front of computer watching a plane-shaped blip on a screen crawl slowly across a map last night (my time). To keep Snowden safe. This is why we are talking about it now. To keep Snowden safe. This is why Glenn Greenwald and the Washington Post keeps publishing leaks. It is also why a lot of newspapers have been told NOT to publish.

Such attention prevents Obama and friends from taking rash action. As long as enough people make it known that they're watching nothing will happen to Snowden.

If he had stayed in the US and gone to his superiors, the story would never have seen the light of day and he would have disappeared into a black hole, achieving nothing. If he'd stayed in the US, we wouldn't even be having this conversation. The fact we are is a testament to his courage and strength of conscience.

He is not selling secrets to anybody. He is informing people. And if you think the Russian and Chinese governments didn't already know the US was hacking them, you have rocks in your head. The only people that didn't know were the citizens and they are the ones being harmed.

Snowden's leaks were for the benefit of the private citizens of the world, regardless of the country, politics, colour or religion. We all have the same fight. He has given up his life, essentially, to do this. He is a hero.

And TPTB hate him for it.

edit on 23-6-2013 by Archie because: .

Outstanding post ! This is the truth , and i almost lost hope in ATS seeing too many posters attacking Snowden and not see the message.

same here! I make your words mine! I also wonder how many payed disinfo agents are actually posting in this thread!

reply to post by Zedux


They are machines , heartless

Originally posted by bowaconstricta
reply to post by ressiv

 

Perm?

Perm? bread and salt however no , transit through Moscow

Originally posted by VirusGuard
Russia Today just ran a poll on Snowdon about the NSA spying on people and 74% were outraged but a whopping 16% feared to pass a vote due to being spied on.

Why are heads not rolling or have we all turned into cowards ?

Ghostery for Firefox helps to reduce your footprint and you should all be thinking about using HTTPS for email services, not that it's really or as safe as TPTB want you to think it is, ISP's keep the keys and can do man-in-the middle spying even on HTTPS traffic but it's better than nothing if your not using a VPN already.

Yep, encrypt it. I work for an ISP. You can do some very impressive deep packet inspection. But the ISP's are not who you need to worry about. It's that equipment that sits on the Internet backbone via your big name providers that you need to worry about. Since it's pretty easy to track TCP sessions I'm betting not only have you been tagged, databased, and categorized I'm betting you have been for several years now. You don't need to worry about what they are going to do to you because it has long since been done. Nothing comes without effort. Most especially Liberty.

To that end, here is a link to an article on ProPublica that discusses a range of decent encryption programs for all kinds of operating systems.

A Buyer's Guide to Safer Communication