Federal Agents Demand Customer Lists From Mormon Food Storage Facility

Originally posted by nenothtu
Try again.

Customer lists have no bearing at all on WHETHER they are doing business - it only bears on who they do business WITH.

What then of cash and carry, where no name is ever known to begin with? Can such a business claim NOT to be doing business for profit simply by not having a customer list?

Sure they do. Especially if the Cannery isn't accounting for their income to say - the IRS. They may be tax exempt but they are still required to report sources of income. Imagine if they didn't have to account for sources of income - think about how such an organization could be used for illegal activities? If the cannery wasn't reporting income or other details required by federal law, then certainly that would invite a visit from "Federal Agents" wouldn't you agree?

And also I don't appreciate being labeled. I simply stated that if you need a list of Federal Agencies that have employees that could serve as "Federal Agents" I could do so. Google is your friend.

reply to post by nightbringr


I was a Business Administrator for a large local church for seven years.

We NEVER submitted anything to any government authority regarding income.

We were fully exempt from property taxes on all property, income taxes , state local and sales taxes..

We did not have to deduct any taxes on wages for ministers, ever.

No agency ever attempted to contact us for anything during my tenure.

All because the 1st amendment to the US Constitution's "free exercise clause" specific to religion.

Story Confirmed!

Article back up!

Originally posted by Shadowalker
reply to post by nightbringr

 

Oh they supply it to the IRS. every year.

Thank you, that was the point i was making.

Originally posted by Shadowalker

But your still not gonna tell me fertilizer is the same as beans. What is someone gonna do? eat the whole bag and fart the air bad?

Nope. Simply wanted to point out the reasons the government might want to know such things.

Lets put this another way. What is somthing became contaminated and they needed to contact those who were in contact or might have ate said product. Might be important to know. Think more broadly, not eveything is a conspiracy.

Originally posted by Shadowalker

You sir are wrong. Asinine examples that have not even one reference point to the issue are not going to cut it.

Your first admission at the top proves i was right. The point i was making is the government has a right to their paperwork.

Originally posted by Shadowalker

The govt has no right to know who buys food or any quantity they may purchase. Being a lazy worthless piece of crap agent with the head in the rectum ........gives no right.

An agent needs to get off their dead ass and do solid investigating and police work. Not make a pool of everyone, and call them terrorists, when they are normal citizens and then decide which ones to pull out and call terrorists. Not based on the fact they eat and poop.

I want as little intrusion into my life from the government as possible. But if my business can be audited, so should the church.

Originally posted by Shadowalker

Regardless There is a document ( a 2000 year old book if you like) that bears a history that all followers have a re-occuring 7 year time frame they should prepare for.

Sure, if you believe in such fairy tales.

Originally posted by romanmel
reply to post by nightbringr

 

I was a Business Administrator for a large local church for seven years.

We NEVER submitted anything to any government authority regarding income.

We were fully exempt from property taxes on all property, income taxes , state local and sales taxes..

We did not have to deduct any taxes on wages for ministers, ever.

No agency ever attempted to contact us for anything during my tenure.

All because the 1st amendment to the US Constitution's "free exercise clause" specific to religion.

All fair.

I still think religion should be held to the same standards any other business is. I dont think that is unreasonable.

Originally posted by nightbringr
The point im making is yes, the government has every right to ask for chruches paperwork and accounting finances. If you insist they do not have to, please show me some proof. Any proof. Oh, but you cant, can you?

You're trying to change the argument. No mention was made in the OP of the government asking for paperwork and finance accounting.

It specified customer lists, not financial documents for an audit.

reply to post by nightbringr


But then again there has never ever been a single case where a terrorist was caught with a food stockpile either.

So how can you link terrorists and food? Doesnt everyone eat and poop?


Show me one known terrorist found with sacks of beans and rice. One. just one.

reply to post by Destinyone


it is backup.

Oathkeepers.org that is

Originally posted by nightbringr

Originally posted by nenothtu
It must be my eyes. From over here, it looks like if they DON'T incorporate, then they are exempted, and outside the jurisdiction of the State, and that WAS State - Florida, it says.

No idea why you are reading it that way. Let me repost the line in question.
When the members of the church decided to incorporate their body under the laws of the state of Florida they submitted themselves to the jurisdiction of the state courts in all matters of a corporate nature, such as accounting for funds
So, this states that once they decided to incorporate, they are subjected to the same laws as any other corporation. So obviously this would include the right for the IRS or any other board with jurisdiction to ask for paperwork.

Exactly.

Your argument is that the have to incorporate in order to be subjected to corporate law, but the legal text says that IF they incorporate, then they are subject to corporate law - meaning if they DON'T incorporate, they are not. Corporations, especially those who sell foodstuffs, either for profit or not, are not required to keep customer lists. When was the last time you had to give your name at the grocery store before making a cash purchase?

Originally posted by nenothtu
What does Federal law say - other than the First Amendment of the Bill of Rights, I mean. We already know what that says about government interference in church matters, and we already know that the Feds tend to not much care what the Constitution says, anyhow.

So what does Federal law say about it?

Good question. Looking into it now. Reguardless, if it turns out that organized religion is exempt from any type of oversight from federal bodies, i will be outraged.

Join the club. many people find different things to be outraged about every day.

I'm kind outraged that the federales have a dangerous habit of stepping outside their remit, but my outrage seems not to bother them all that much - they do it anyway.

The concern is over food saftey measures.
Which it's understandable to investigate the facility and it's canning procedures.. but to ask for a list of customers is just going too far.

I think the asking part was simply to put fear into buyers and keep them away.

Originally posted by nightbringr

Originally posted by romanmel
reply to post by nightbringr

 

I was a Business Administrator for a large local church for seven years.

We NEVER submitted anything to any government authority regarding income.

We were fully exempt from property taxes on all property, income taxes , state local and sales taxes..

We did not have to deduct any taxes on wages for ministers, ever.

No agency ever attempted to contact us for anything during my tenure.

All because the 1st amendment to the US Constitution's "free exercise clause" specific to religion.

All fair.

I still think religion should be held to the same standards any other business is. I dont think that is unreasonable.

After posting this, I remembered we did garnish wages on an employee who owed past due income taxes to the Federal Government, though we may not have had to. I do understand your feeling that churches should not be treated differently but the founding fathers set it up that way. Some churches have taken advantage of the system for sure.

Originally posted by zeeon

Sure they do. Especially if the Cannery isn't accounting for their income to say - the IRS. They may be tax exempt but they are still required to report sources of income. Imagine if they didn't have to account for sources of income - think about how such an organization could be used for illegal activities? If the cannery wasn't reporting income or other details required by federal law, then certainly that would invite a visit from "Federal Agents" wouldn't you agree?

Customer lists do not fall into that purview, and more than grocery stores must maintain a list of names of everyone who shops there to detail a "source of income". That would be on their balance sheets, and in their bank records - not on a customer list.

And also I don't appreciate being labeled. I simply stated that if you need a list of Federal Agencies that have employees that could serve as "Federal Agents" I could do so. Google is your friend.

No problem. Don't make the claim that you can provide a detailed list of Federal Agents and their Agencies, then.

Most Federal Agents would probably get a little sore about being outed like that.

reply to post by havok


I have a feeling that their ego is larger than the military. They must understand that much of the military is going to turn on them when they see what they are being told to do to other peoples families. The military members will say "if I am doing this to thier family, who is doing what to MY family?". I think a big majority of us were in the military, but you can only brainwash a person into obedience so much. Part of the military will defect...with weapons, and the rest of the country as a whole? 300 million people? This is not going to be pretty for those who give America no choice. It will not be a battle field, it will be a slaughter in my opinion. Imagine being a person who is herding cattle or bull and you have technology, cattle prods, tasers whatever you want, even guns and there's 300+ million bulls that turn on you. You will get some of the cattle or bull, but when the herd turns and starts to stampede.....well, you have seen this before haven't you?

Originally posted by SumerianSoldier
Ok, so we got "Feds" checking a food cannery in Tennessee and we recently had articles on TSA conducting highway checks in same said state. Anyone have any idea why Tenneessee would be a state of some importance to target?

Tennessee is home of "The Farm" which is the oldest Self Organizing Intentional Community in the United States, excepting the collective farming communities in the midwest. It is the stronghold of the 60s "Hippie Movement" remnant and represents a working model of what is possible off grid and outside the system.

The recent webbot report states a return to SOC Self Organizing Communities and away from centralized fascist governmental trends. I believe this could be a factor if they are intending to test resistance against "commies, hippies and other undesirables" prior to a full scale assault on intentional communities, activist and extremists nationwide. I think this vision of a collective, cooperative future may pose a threat to them and may be opening the world to some really exciting community possibilities that exist outside of the current paradigm for most folks. TPTB want to present a model of oppression. Communities like The Farm present an attainable Utopian vision based on freedom and collective power.

This may also explain the milk and organic food wars and the GMO corn battles in the Mid West...

Just a thought...

www.thefarm.org...

People still dont understand why some of us oppose BIG government.

Washington D.C. is not set up to "help you".

D.C. is a cesspool of corruption and waste. Its run by corporations, lobbyists, special interest groups and political insiders.

All of these unnecessary functions should be abolished and if need be, should be handled on the state and local levels, where there is a LOT more accountability. Its easier to demand change on a local level as opposed to a federal level.

reply to post by PapaKrok

Tennessee is home of "The Farm" which is the oldest Self Organizing Intentional Community in the United States, excepting the collective farming communities in the midwest. It is the stronghold of the 60s "Hippie Movement" remnant and represents a working model of what is possible off grid and outside the system.

Yep I have been there a few times with my mother who is a midwife. She went there every year to attend the midwifery conference. Its a nice place, pretty isolated, everyone was very friendly. I did not know that it is a haven for the hippie movement, but looking back now I can see it. Lots of people growing their own food, some live without electricity. They are a lot more calm and intelligent than the hippies I know here in Los Angeles

Originally posted by nenothtu
Your argument is that the have to incorporate in order to be subjected to corporate law, but the legal text says that IF they incorporate, then they are subject to corporate law - meaning if they DON'T incorporate, they are not. Corporations, especially those who sell foodstuffs, either for profit or not, are not required to keep customer lists. When was the last time you had to give your name at the grocery store before making a cash purchase?

No, my main point was that churches or religion should never, and in fact are not exempt from government oversight.

Honestly, id be surprised if the main wholesale distributers, not the retailers, werent required to keep records on who was sold what and when. In the smaller business im in, we do keep detailed lists of all our clients. Im sure if the government asked for them, we would be required to hend them over, i cant see them not having a law like that. Maybe not. Again, my original point was simply that churches should not be secretive and have the right to withhold certain information.

Originally posted by nenothtu

Join the club. many people find different things to be outraged about every day.

I'm kind outraged that the federales have a dangerous habit of stepping outside their remit, but my outrage seems not to bother them all that much - they do it anyway.

Fair. I think we all have a lot of things to be indignant about these days.

reply to post by PapaKrok

It is the stronghold of the 60s "Hippie Movement" remnant and represents a working model of what is possible off grid and outside the system.

i'm sorry, but I hate Hippies. They are the very model of laziness and mooching off of everyone as opposed to working for it. nothing wrong with smoking pot IMO, but hippies breathe it like it's air and the last 2 brain cells that each of them have are constantly fighting.
If I see hippies during the revolution, I will stop fighting for America for a moment and me and the cops will have a mutuality on who to rid this country of.
I personally don't have a lot against a terrorist, (or what we have been told is a terrorist), I have never met one outside of FOX or CNN news anchor men and women, or the people they talk about that blow things up either, ......but I do know a hippie when I see one or smell one and if we want to really save America......they are a good starting point.

Originally posted by nenothtu
And also I don't appreciate being labeled. I simply stated that if you need a list of Federal Agencies that have employees that could serve as "Federal Agents" I could do so. Google is your friend.

No problem. Don't make the claim that you can provide a detailed list of Federal Agents and their Agencies, then.

Most Federal Agents would probably get a little sore about being outed like that.

I think your miss-interpreting what I was getting at - that I could find a list of agencies that have employees who act in the capacity of Federal Agents. I think your thinking that I'd post some sort of secret NOC list or something, lol
And infact my point was that I could google federal agencies that have agents who do work for them.

Originally posted by gladtobehere
People still dont understand why some of us oppose BIG government.

Washington D.C. is not set up to "help you".

D.C. is a cesspool of corruption and waste. Its run by corporations, lobbyists, special interest groups and political insiders.

All of these unnecessary functions should be abolished and if need be, should be handled on the state and local levels, where there is a LOT more accountability. Its easier to demand change on a local level as opposed to a federal level.

You should think of the Federal Government as a faction with multiple sides and multiple players. Some do indeed have good intentions, and then there are those that do not. The ENTIRETY of the Federal Governement (including our Military of which I am a part of) are those who have good intentions.