Women who wear burkas on the street in France face fines of £700

Originally posted by Occy Anonymous
reply to post by DEEZNUTZ

 

[*SNIP*] How can you say something like that without first living in one of these countries and experiencing the atrocities first hand? Moving shouldn't mean giving up your heritage, people shouldn't assimilate just because others are afraid of change. We need more diversity, not for everyone to be a blank generic clone of one nation.

 

Mod Note: Courtesy is Mandatory – Please Review Link.

[edit on 1/8/2010 by AshleyD]

Oh really? So then, if you move to a staunch Muslim country, do you not think that you (as a woman) would be expected to "respect" the culture/religion of the place? Sure you would. For example, if you a French woman and used to laying out on a beach topless, do you think they will let you practice your French ways there? Absolutely not!

The Muslim countries think that western ways are evil and don't want them in their lands. I applaud the western countries for taking the same track with them. Diversity is okay as long as it doesn't send a bad message, which Burkas do. For example, would you want Ku-Klux-Klan members walking around a city in their full cloaks and hoods? That is their culture, after all. What about people who are really into S & M walking all around town in their cultural leather and chains (with no covering for their asses)? That is their culture also, and isn't diversity good?

reply to post by downisreallyup


Hate to break it to you, actually in America we do allow KKK members to march down the street wearing whatever the hell the like.

It's called "freedom".

It's something that this country was built on.

Simple question: Why are Muslim men not held responsible for controlling their lewd impulses on their own? Why is it that it is wholly the woman's responsibility to cover herself from head to toe lest she temp a man's urges?

Is this not complete irresponsibility on the part of the men in these societies?

Are Muslim men such wild, uncivilized and barbaric creatures that they cannot be held accountable for their actions?

I think culture and religion are a very poor excuse for this sham. When Muslims come to non Muslim countries the men have to rise to western standards and drop the crap that they cannot control themselves. This is complete BS.

Good for France for not putting up with it.

No civilized society should accept the complete subjugation of women to the whims of men. Its a no go. Its time for Muslim men to grow up -- or go home.

viva la france . britain wake up and follow the lead

At first my reaction was "wow, that is taking it way too far, what is the world coming to? I didn't know the French were so intolerant..."

Then I thought, hold on a minute. France is a sovereign nation that has the right to implement the laws that it chooses. What right do I have to tell them that what they are doing is intolerant and wrong? Do I know the reasons behind these types of laws? Is it really just Islamophobia or something more? Is this maybe a protective mechanism to prevent France's culture and identity from being eroded by those who do not respect or want to follow French law?

If there were a law in Saudi Arabia that fined people for wearing Crucifixes in the street, would the people dismissing this law as anti-Muslim interpret this Saudi Arabian law as anti-Christian? I doubt it. In fact, I bet most people would say something like "well it's their country, let them do what they want..." Why can't Western countries do the same? Are we the exception that need to meet all the needs and desires of others at the cost of our own?

[edit on 9/1/2010 by Dark Ghost]

Originally posted by unicorn1

The problem is the takeover of an indigenous culture by another which is hellbent on expansion and converting the indigenous culture to it's own beliefs and laws.

The problem I see is that now these other cultures/religions feel that our laws should be changed just to accomodate them!

It's already happening/happened in the UK with the Shria Law being adopted into their "laws".

If you move to another country you should respect their laws,not try to have your own "religious" set of laws and expect a whole country (even though these laws only apply tom people of your own religion), to change their laws.

To me this is just arrogant!

Religions, according to our US Constitution says this should NEVER happen, ...

U.S. Constitution: First Amendment

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion

Religion should be in your heart, your home and in your church, mosque, temple, or whatever your religious house is, but don't expect other people who don't have your same beliefs to have to "conform" to "your" beliefs/traditions in their every day lives!

To me that"s just ARROGANCE!

Originally posted by seattletruth
reply to post by downisreallyup

 

Hate to break it to you, actually in America we do allow KKK members to march down the street wearing whatever the hell the like.

It's called "freedom".

It's something that this country was built on.

I'm not talking about "marching" as in parades. I'm talking about walking around in the normal day, like into the mall, into work, into McDonald's wearing a KKK hood. I've never seen it in America, so your point isn't really effective.

If you'd like, let's use a different example. Let's take some black people, put them into ragged clothes and chains, and then you walk around town in a normal course of the day, holding the chain and barking orders to the men you are leading around. See how long it takes before a police man asks you what you are doing, or other people interfere with your demonstration.

Oh, let some nice fancy dressed transvestites and S & M leather daddies walk around a deep south "Bible-belt" small town, let's say in Tennessee or Alabama, or perhaps Texas.

Or, better yet, have a middle-eastern man walk around dressed in middle-eastern dress, wearing a few dozen plastic bags filled with clay around his neck and wires sticking into the bags. Let's see how free those guys will be to continue doing that.

So, if you wear clothes that depict potential slavery, perceived sexual perversity, or potential terrorism, you will undoubtedly be stopped by someone. Women who dress such that they advertise the secret slavery and abuse of women is also something that many people really don't want to see.

Originally posted by wayno
Simple question: Why are Muslim men not held responsible for controlling their lewd impulses on their own? Why is it that it is wholly the woman's responsibility to cover herself from head to toe lest she temp a man's urges?

Is this not complete irresponsibility on the part of the men in these societies?

Are Muslim men such wild, uncivilized and barbaric creatures that they cannot be held accountable for their actions?

I think culture and religion are a very poor excuse for this sham. When Muslims come to non Muslim countries the men have to rise to western standards and drop the crap that they cannot control themselves. This is complete BS.

Good for France for not putting up with it.

No civilized society should accept the complete subjugation of women to the whims of men. Its a no go. Its time for Muslim men to grow up -- or go home.

Women are seen as inferior to men by many who practice Islam.

Originally posted by serbsta

Women who wear burkas on the street in France face fines of £700

[edit on 8/1/2010 by serbsta]

I for one do not see this as any kind of "progress". This is restriction on "personal freedom/ choice".

However, I can understand how such a law can be passed in case of France, as contrary to the general opinion it is not a Deomocracy. The government of the French Republic is a semi-presidential system determined by the French Constitution of the fifth Republic.


This new law contradicts France 's Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen and Declaration of the Rights of Woman and the Female Citizen

Even though France declares itself to be "an indivisible, secular, democratic, and social Republic". But just saying a crow is white in color does not make it white.

There are two principles that any definition of democracy includes, equality and freedom. These principles are reflected by all citizens being equal before the law, and having equal access to power, and freedom is secured by legitimized rights and liberties, which are generally protected by a constitution.

In view of this proposed new law on woman's rights it cannot call itself Secular and Democratic any longer instead the new definition would include "Authoritative" government.

Henceforth, France will be known as "Authoritarian" Government.

reply to post by searching4truth


It's all about responsibility, isn't it? A man is phsically stronger than a woman and has a duty to use his strenght responsilibly, if a man is losing an arguement it's wrong for him to start using his strenght to win or get even. A man has his strenght primarily to hunt and protect.

Yes men are responsible for what they think, and lets face it, guys don't need much encouragement to think about sex, so is there anything wrong in a woman being loving and compassionate towards her men-folk and dressing down a bit, in taking responsibity for her sexuality?

I know there is nothing in the Qur'an that says women must wear Hijab or niqaab, the Qur'an states:

"O Prophet, tell your wives and daughters and the believing women to draw their outer garments around them (when they go out or are among men). That is better in order that they may be known (to be Muslims) and not annoyed..." (Qur'an 33:59)

islamic-world.net...

It's about identity and modesty and yes covering your head and modesty apply to men as well.

I know if I walk though Brixton market in a mini and thigh boots I'm going to attract a lot of negative attention, so I choose not to do it, I don't dress in a mini, attract lots of attention and then complain about it like some of my mates do. If I have the right to wear a mini, does a man have the right to oggle? Or do I have the right to put him down for following his nature?

There is an element of control here, women are treated like bargining chips in some places in the world, young girls are married off to gain land, money, position (in the UK some Asian families sell their daughters nationality to the highest bidder, UK wife= UK passport for the husband) and it's wrong. Like when Asian girls get killed because they've grown up in the west and then their families object to them acting as westeners, it's wrong. But what's wrong in not flashing your booty at every Tom, Dick and Harry?
What's wrong in saving your beauty for the eyes of your husband if thats what you choose to do?

I think people should be compassionate towards people who CHOOSE to wear niqaab, coming to another culture and making such a brave statement, showing girls that you can exsist in the world and base your exsistance on something more than just looks!

And what next if you ban the burka? Will you force nuns to stop wearing wimples?

Geez this annoys me. what about nuns wearing traditional nun gear :/

Originally posted by marg6043
reply to post by blueorder

 

The problems is that flooding nations in Europe and increasing their numbers by births is an agenda all on its own.

See as the numbers increase their gain power, through government, corporatism and voting rights, this in turn open the door to policy changes that will benefit their own culture and heritage then the nation targeted starts to lose its own identity.

This no new, it happens through history during war invasion and conquer, modern days is a different type of warfare.

But a warfare indeed.

Just look the failed attempts of the US to influence Iraq and Afghanistan culture and heritage.

A fiasco because US has lost its own identity a long time ago that can not longer influence those it invades.

I agree totally with what you are say, on both counts.

Make no mistake, this is an invasion in Europe, aided by submissive "liberal"/left establishments (along with big business who want cheap labour)


There are so many traitors in charge in Europe it is not funny- in my own nation of the UK our elite have surrendered sovereignty to Europe and openly promoted mass immigration and multi culturalism to dilute the host population and culture- traitors should be in the Tower of London

You are right though, we should stay out of places like Afghanistan and Iraq

Originally posted by project_aurora
Geez this annoys me. what about nuns wearing traditional nun gear :/

They will also be banned under French Authoritarian rules shortly.

The French Republic is strongly laicist.

Head scarves are not banned. Only in public places like public schools and, say, if you are an employee in a town hall. No head scarf, no kippa, no cross around the neck. No religious signs in Republic-run places.

The burqa is a rare tradition in some areas around the Persian Gulf. The point of view taken by the legislators is it's not about religion but freedom. Of course, many want to drag the issue towards religion as it suits their objectives.
French of muslim culture, generally from Northern Africa and with no tradition of burqas, are not concerned by the ban and mostly are in favor of the ban, especially the women, go figure why ! You know the French, they eat cheese, smell garlic, lose a war, are authoritarian, the usual daily routine.

It's estimated a few thousands of women wear burqas in France. It's not the number that is a problem. The problem is the following question. Are those women using their free will here ? For an atheist mind, they blatantly don't.
The issue is still debatable and the debate is not over in France. How one can assume others free will ?
Now return the problem. In case of a woman forced at home to wear a burqa and scared to death to tell the truth. What will you do to defend or only preserve her freedom ? There is no ideal solution.
Draw a comparison with women beaten at home, sometimes no one notices for years the situation and they don't tell anyone. They don't get beaten by free will, do they ? They are scared, they feel humiliated, they can go as far as to find excuses to their violent husband.

Morocco regularly jails journalists like recently when one newspaper dared write that the King might have a illness. This is just a side note for the one suggesting that Morroco is a free country compared to France. Were you serious ? Why be so provocative ?
Morocco has its own free will issues, especially when it's the King's free will.

Originally posted by project_aurora
Geez this annoys me. what about nuns wearing traditional nun gear :/

don't believe that dying breed has ever covered their mushes- and furthermore, they are not under any undue male influence as they do not marry and run their "NUNNERIES" in an all female style


This is the problem with relativism, it just misses the point

I don't like the government of ANY country (either France, Islamic nations, North Korea, or anywhere else) making laws about what people can and cannot wear. I suppose some laws regarding nudity are almost universally acceptable by 99% of the societies I can think of off the top of my head. But beyond that, the basic idea of regulating clothing disturbs me. Reminds me of Pol Pot in the 70s in Cambodia forcing everyone to wear the same outfit.

At the same time, I think if you move to a foreign country, you are under a kind of general social obligation, (call it "common courtesy," perhaps) to try and at least not blatantly go against the manners and norms of that nation's culture when in public. (What you do in your own home should be your own business). If one doesn't like it, than perhaps its time to seek a different host nation, or move back home.

Originally posted by blueorder

Originally posted by project_aurora
Geez this annoys me. what about nuns wearing traditional nun gear :/

don't believe that dying breed has ever covered their mushes- and furthermore, they are not under any undue male influence as they do not marry and run their "NUNNERIES" in an all female style


This is the problem with relativism, it just misses the point

Nuns wear wimples for a lot of the same reasons, namely modesty and identity.

Do I need to do a second line thingy here? I dunno I'm a noob

Originally posted by WendroidNuns wear wimples for a lot of the same reasons, namely modesty and identity.

Do I need to do a second line thingy here? I dunno I'm a noob

yep, you are right re the nuns' reasoning- main point I was making was at least we know the nuns are not being coerced or oppressed (unless you view them as voluntarily oppressing themselves), as they are pretty free from male involvement


The same cannot be said for these women dressed as beekeepers in the Islamic community................

Originally posted by Manouche


Morocco regularly jails journalists like recently when one newspaper dared write that the King might have a illness. This is just a side note for the one suggesting that Morroco is a free country compared to France. Were you serious ? Why be so provocative ?

Morocco has its own free will issues, especially when it's the King's free will.

I said it was one of the things they do right, giving women the choice to wear headscarf or not, and as you can see most women choose not to in morocco. Every country has their good and bad mate.

And morocco is a GREAT place to visit, very beautiful and great people.
I can say the same about france, I love both places.

Peace.

[edit on 9-1-2010 by _Phoenix_]