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Women who wear burkas on the street in France face fines of £700

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posted on Jan, 8 2010 @ 06:43 PM
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Originally posted by _Phoenix_
reply to post by Sheeper
 


But france they pick and choose who they want to give freewill to or not, which is not a good sign of an advanced society.

You talk about protecting humans? What about protecting those women who WANT to wear them? What about them? Is it all about "you"?

We all know about the negative side of controlling husbands but you do know that most women choose to wear them by their own will. A lot of the men don't care wether they wear it or not. Most are not getting forced like people like to say haha.

You should see some of these arab women I know, they are the BOSS of the family. You should be more worried about the husbands lol.

Peace.


I can't argue the point of most Muslims being law abiding and passive as you are more than likely correct. Islam though does not lend itself to western culture and will always call for religious law to be of higher prominence than civil law. Therefore undermining the state.

I really don't know the politics behind making this decision now but:

If a state has to chose between legislating for someone who is oppressed (i.e. forced to wear a burka) or someone who voluntarliy choses TO wear such a garment, then how does it decide?

who is the most affected by such a decision?




posted on Jan, 8 2010 @ 06:45 PM
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I can't my mind up on this one.

So I asked my missus and she said "it would be nice and cosy in this weather"



I don't think you can force people to wear one thing or another. Should be free to choose.

I remember when I went about in biker gear, helmet, leathers, long hair, me and my mates got a lot of grief from places like shops and pubs. I suppose they thought our appearance spelled trouble.



posted on Jan, 8 2010 @ 06:47 PM
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Originally posted by osc121


So you are saying that every woman who wears a burka in France does so on her own free will?

Of course not.



posted on Jan, 8 2010 @ 06:52 PM
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reply to post by _Phoenix_
 


Yes...you are! It's not so much as them being forced, I mean cmon they are bred to accept such things, how could they not accept them? And just because you know muslims that are nice, that somehow negates the negative impact that their religion creates? Well I got one better, I live in a very heavily christian Iraqi community, (caldeians), and some Iranian christian refugees aswell in El Cajon, I have heard from their lips numerous times of the intolerance and persecution they were faced in their homeland by the Totalitarian Islamic religion, it is not a tolerant religion.

Yeah many of the Muslims may be nice, but it's the Quran that is the problem, it is Islam that is the problem and it is weak and feeble human minds that are the problem. At one time Christianity/Catholithism was an oppressive force among our nations yet most Christian or Catholic folk were probably decent people..... But we still had to do something about that oppressive force didn't we. Well they may not be doing anything about it in their home countries but we will, we always have, we never lay down.



[edit on 8-1-2010 by Sheeper]



posted on Jan, 8 2010 @ 06:56 PM
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reply to post by osc121
 


I don't know.

But women who wear burkas in the uk and france are quiet rare in my opinion. I know many muslims and I've only seen a couple who wear burkas, and I have never talked to them, they are that rare. I think most muslims see them as a bit of the extreme side and don't hang around with them so much.

Also like I said most muslims I know now are born here, and most of the girls have their hair free in the wind. So this generation and the next will naturally wear less headscarfs etc anyway.

Another interesting fact, egyptian muslims in the past wore much less headscarfs than now. It seems since the war on terror and other problems, that they start wearing them more, strangely.

BUT I think if the goverment keeps coming out with silly laws like this burkas ban, then muslim women who never wore burkas or headscarfs before, might start wearing them just to rebel against the system haha.

Humans love to rebel.

I think banning things get the opposite effect sometimes, sort of like the ban on drugs haha.

[edit on 8-1-2010 by _Phoenix_]



posted on Jan, 8 2010 @ 07:02 PM
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Originally posted by Sheeper
reply to post by _Phoenix_
 


Yes...you are! It's not so much as them being forced, I mean cmon they are bred to accept such things, how could they not accept them? And just because you know muslims that are nice, that somehow negates the negative impact that their religion creates? Well I got one better, I live in a very heavily christian Iraqi community, (caldeians), and some Iranian christian refugees aswell, I have heard from their lips numerous times of the intolerance and persecution they were faced in their homeland by the Totalitarian Islamic religion, it is not a tolerant religion.

It's culture not religion that causes that more than anything.

Plus most muslims I know are moroccans and pakistanis(I'm half moroccan). It's quiet obvious there are more problems in the iraqi part of the world you talk of.

My point is the muslim world is a huge place, with many countries, each one has different cultures and laws and even the religion can be different, it's impossible and ignorant to try and put them all in the same group and judge them.

Check this link out, and see how different each country is. Some muslim countries ALSO ban the burkas/headscarfs, and many give choice, but prefer to not wear headscarf. Check out morocco and tunisia etc and compare it to saudi arabia.
en.wikipedia.org...

Now many people may not know that, because all they know is from the news, and it;s always the same old countries on it, saudi arabia, iraq etc. And people might think that every muslim country is forced to wear headscarfs, when infact it's almost the opposite.

So you see you can't pick and choose and act like all muslims are like this or that. Because if you do a little research you would see how different each country is, and then you would see how different EACH INDIVIDUAL is, and that's what is most important. We are all individuals.

So you see most muslim countries have NO problem with women without headscarfs etc. I mean check out arab music videos with all the pretty ladies and handsome men. Watch arabic tv for their fun talk shows and dramas.

If people did that they would have a much better idea what the arab/muslim world is like, they get to see the music, the culture the positives sides. NOT just the negative side that gets fed to them by the news.

A balance is good in life, people need to have more balance on their views of the world, especially the muslim world. There are many great beautiful things that people don't know about in the muslim world.

But everyone talks about the negative aspects. We could talk all day about the negative aspect of the USA for example, but we can't forget the postive aspects.

Peace.

[edit on 8-1-2010 by _Phoenix_]



posted on Jan, 8 2010 @ 07:21 PM
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reply to post by _Phoenix_
 


Well I would never shun a person on a personal level no matter what their creed. As a whole, I see a problem, scratch that, as a whole, there is a problem. I guess it comes down to a difference of view points. If the French feel that this suggestive, self divulging, oppressive practice is bad for their society then they have every right to mold their society that best suits them. When their are real people musing about the destruction of western civilization and more than enough evidence to suggest that many do intend to try and cultivate such threats, it is fool hardy for a govt to not impliment measures that will stifle such attempts.

And as nice as you want to believe these muslims are, reality suggests otherwise, why do cells spring up for no reason, full of "regular" folk that "we couldn't believe were even capable of such thing"...."omg"! It happens, it's real.




[edit on 8-1-2010 by Sheeper]



posted on Jan, 8 2010 @ 07:27 PM
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Originally posted by Mr Headshot
Good.

It's called assimilation, something we should try over here in the states.

Keeping a national identity when you're being taken over by other cultures (intentional or not) is a hard thing to do and if you want to stay the same country, it's essential.

Also, France seems to be trying to make it well known they respect women lately; bully for them.


[edit on 8-1-2010 by Mr Headshot]


If you live in the USA then I'm all in favor of you being unquestionably forced against your will to live exactly like a traditional native American. Now that is what I call forced assimilation.

However, for those of us who believe in the freedom of expression, I assert it is our right to dress any way at all we wish, so long as it isn't harming anybody.

Everyone should be free to live as they wish, unless they are specifically harming another individual. Otherwise we are all just slaves under authoritarian types like yourself.



posted on Jan, 8 2010 @ 07:31 PM
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Originally posted by Sheeper


And as nice as you want to believe these muslims are, reality suggests otherwise


Hmm well maybe your reality. But my reality is I've known muslims all my life, because I am half moroccan, and most have been very nice (moroccans are fun nice people), and I know for a fact that most muslims are normal family people just trying to live life.

The reality you must be talking about is the negative one I see on the news. Yes I accept that there are negative sides to the muslim world.

But the good outweighs the bad I assure you. Loving familes, great friends, great food, great music all outweighs it.

What you said is like saying. And as nice as you want to believe these americans are, reality suggests otherwise.

Many people in the world hate the USA, because they think the usa are violent terrorists trying to control the world, and not minding their own business causing many innocent lives to die.

But I and you know otherwise, that there are plenty of good people and great things in the USA.

Stop looking at things in a black and white one sided way.



posted on Jan, 8 2010 @ 07:32 PM
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Originally posted by Occy Anonymous
reply to post by Mr Headshot
 


No, it should be unity through diversity. We may all become one but we will at least retain individuality, if it were up to these people we'd all be exactly alike in every way.


But this is how they are in an Islamic state... they are all the same... all dress the same... all worship the same God!!

Anyway to the OP.... i don't much like those all over burqas... it depresses me really and i'm pretty sure it depresses most Muslim women who in some country's are forced to wear them... there are times when i've been to my Doctors and sitting there are al muslim women in their burqas... it straight away brings over to me 'depression' and i think this is not a morgue.....

I don't like this oppressive and depressive way of living and i'm not even muslim so you can imagine how some if not most of them feel...



[edit on 8-1-2010 by TruthxIsxInxThexMist]



posted on Jan, 8 2010 @ 07:33 PM
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Originally posted by Sheeper
reply to post by _Phoenix_
 


it is fool hardy for a govt to not impliment measures that will stifle such attempts.



Yeah but in my opinion it wont stop such attempts, it might cause the opposite by causing anger to the extremists lurking in the darkness.



posted on Jan, 8 2010 @ 07:33 PM
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reply to post by _Phoenix_
 


Rules Of Gulf States




It’s vital that foreigners make themselves aware of the conduct required while living in Saudi Arabia, and particularly the following offences:

* Men being in the company of women who aren’t close relatives.

* Women being with men other than close relatives, who are treated as prostitutes and can be deported with a ‘persona non grata’ endorsement in their passports, forbidding them from returning to any Gulf state.

* Women driving cars.

* ‘Indiscreet’ dress (e.g. shorts or short-sleeved shirts for men, and uncovered hair, short dresses, exposed arms and shoulders for women).

* Practising a religion other than Islam, carrying a Bible, wearing a cross.

* Blasphemy, particularly if you swear at a Muslim, making derogatory remarks about Islam, taking the name of Allah or the Prophet Mohammed in vain, and any form of behaviour that’s deemed to be ‘immoral’.


Care to discuss whether France has rights to make it's own laws against what it sees as unequal?

[edit on 8/1/10 by osc121]



posted on Jan, 8 2010 @ 07:35 PM
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reply to post by osc121
 


Saudi Arabia is known for their stupid laws which have no basis on real islam, they are a joke. The country is controlled by a different kind of islam, a sect started in the 18th century designed to gain more control and less freedom based on one mans belief.

Muslims outside saudi refer to them as wahhabi.
en.wikipedia.org...




And yes france has the right, but it doesn't mean it's "right"..


p.s I love france! the south of france is really beautiful. And you gotta love paris.

[edit on 8-1-2010 by _Phoenix_]



posted on Jan, 8 2010 @ 07:36 PM
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reply to post by truthquest
 


Do you believe they are wearing full body garments with only slits for the eyes, as a fashion statement? Do you believe that they woke up and said, hmmm what should I wear, yes this conseal's my body quite nicely? Maybe they dress this way because they have been bred to accept such things. Ofcourse they "want" to, it's not as if they "don't want" to. But if you had any deeper grasp of the actual intentions that inspired such behavior you might regret supporting such an archaic and inhumane "piece of garment". You see it isn't just a "piece of garment" it was traditionally the intention of oppression, after all they are very beautiful women, we can't be having them lusted after.


[edit on 8-1-2010 by Sheeper]



posted on Jan, 8 2010 @ 07:42 PM
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Originally posted by osc121
reply to post by _Phoenix_
 


Rules Of Gulf States




It’s vital that foreigners make themselves aware of the conduct required while living in Saudi Arabia, and particularly the following offences:

* Men being in the company of women who aren’t close relatives.

* Women being with men other than close relatives, who are treated as prostitutes and can be deported with a ‘persona non grata’ endorsement in their passports, forbidding them from returning to any Gulf state.

* Women driving cars.

* ‘Indiscreet’ dress (e.g. shorts or short-sleeved shirts for men, and uncovered hair, short dresses, exposed arms and shoulders for women).

* Practising a religion other than Islam, carrying a Bible, wearing a cross.

* Blasphemy, particularly if you swear at a Muslim, making derogatory remarks about Islam, taking the name of Allah or the Prophet Mohammed in vain, and any form of behaviour that’s deemed to be ‘immoral’.


Care to discuss whether France has rights to make it's own laws against what it sees as unequal?

[edit on 8/1/10 by osc121]


Care to discuss, what and how much influence a minority has depending on who is writing the checks. As for France, not sure if you live there or not, or in which part of France you actually reside, that is if you do, but sadly, there is a serious problem that was pointed out about a decade ago at an intelligence gathering, so here we are today. Does it shock us....No...are we aware of the issue...YES...will there be a solution to this....YES..will affect most citizens currently living in France and other nations....YES...will that change anything....No..!

That's about he reality of how things are.



[edit on 8-1-2010 by tristar]



posted on Jan, 8 2010 @ 07:45 PM
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reply to post by _Phoenix_
 


No, my biased friend, REALITY!!! Not my reality, I don't even watch the news. I've allready addressed the fact that most are probably nice and family oriented people, but it is the religion that is the problem and a mispent culture that they are unwilling to adjust.

[edit on 8-1-2010 by Sheeper]



posted on Jan, 8 2010 @ 07:46 PM
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Does France claim to be a nation with liberty? Freedom? Equality? Since I honestly dont know the answer to these questions I shouldnt even be replying to this post, but since I arrived at this article by a somewhat scientific means I have to put in my 2 cents none the less. If France claims that freedom is part of being French then this rule is an attrocity and should not be stood for by its people. If the muslim faith is such a threat then why take away a tool the French govt. could use in identifying this threat.

The "Death Angel" mushroom is extremely poisonous and almost allways fatal when ingested, yet it has a harmless look alike which has only one slight difference, a ring below the stem is pointed up rather than down,
(or vice versa, I cant remember,,dont use my post for a guide on which one is which......you could die)

Point being is that if for some reason tptb decided to change the direction that the ring on this mushroom faced then no one would know which one was deadly, so based on what we know of the deadly shroom, scholars and scientists would probably say there was no longer a harmless look alike and eventually it would be forgotten that one ever existed. Which could be seen as an injustice or a very effective means of keeping a low profile for the harmless variety.

To me ALL faiths and religions have no place in buisness or professional life, and I would rather any member of any faith be required to wear a uniform so I coul avoid them at all costs. But if a nation claims to posess liberty, freedom or any of the other things I mentioned and it decides to interfere with ones faith or religion (assuming ones faith is not a safety risk) Then ones country has comitted a crime against one, that crime being interferance in ones persuit of happiness, and should be treated as any other criminal.Innocent until proven guilty and a Fair trial to determine which. Just because I feel that faith and religion are nothing more than weakness manifest in flesh doesnt mean that another human doesnt have the right to wear thier inferiority like a badge of honor.


So if this is indeed true concerning the persecution of muslim attire in France then I wouldnt want to be a French citezen.



posted on Jan, 8 2010 @ 07:47 PM
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saw the thread title, felt it necessary to say bravo to france



in todays war on terror, many people of all nationalities are having to make sacrifices to their freedom in order to ensure "safety"

it has actually grown out of control, now they actually want mind readers in airports, thats insanity, paranoia, and many other severe psychological issues


if we all have to make sacrifices so should everyone, at least in america we SHOULD be all equal


however we all know damn well we arent



i say if we are going to continue this war on terror crap, lets go all in, jesse ventura has touched on that topic and i fully agree, we are doing a half assed job with everything, if the world wants to defeat terrorism, then lets have world war 3, lets stop playing these games of control and taking away freedoms and changing laws to ensure safety, lets go have our war and make real safety



if this war on terror is going to continue then we must be ready to give up all our rights under religion and freedom in the name of safety, either that, or shut the hell up about terrorists, we have become a truly pathetic world



posted on Jan, 8 2010 @ 07:50 PM
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Originally posted by SuperSlovak
Unless you have a one sided view on things this could be considered racism. It's like telling pakistanis to stop wearing turbans.


Turbans do not cover their face.



posted on Jan, 8 2010 @ 07:50 PM
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I am a Muslim that lives in America. I was born here and born Muslim and I'm black too. Just wanted to give some insight to this debate.

I come to this site all the time but I usually just read the articles and posts. This one seemed like it needed a different perspective. I'm 27 and I do not "make" my wife wear a burka. She does cover her hair but that was her choice to do so. I wear a beard, not huge, but it has a meaning. In biblical times women covered and men wore beards. Any picture of Jesus or Abraham or Moses etc they have beards and these are our Prophets. The Virgin Mary wore a scarf in most pictures. Nuns today wear their hair covered. Amish women cover and Amish men have big beards. Jewish women cover and Jewish men have beards. It all stems from the same place.

Also, there are approx. 1 Billion Muslims in the world. Lots in Maylaysia and India, Africa etc. To say that "all" muslims do this or that is pretty crazy. I live in Cleveland Ohio and I can show you all types of Muslims here, not all of us get along (sunni/#e). The reason you dont see a lot of "good" Muslims talking about this war and how crazy these extremist are is because its not televised. There are many lectures out there against these "radicals". They are lower to us than people who dont believe at all. Not to be offensive to Atheist, because I've met some, but that just gives you an idea of how we feel. And I saw "we" meaning normal people (atleast normal to me). In the times of Muhammad, Jews and Christians were in Mecca and all around Saudi. They were not forced to convert either. Not saying its like that today but thats how it should be.

I catch people looking at my family and I sometimes but its no big deal. People ask questions all the time because they want to honestly know whats right and whats wrong. The TV can be decieving but it is real. There are some bad people that are giving the religion a bad name.

I've been overseas and even sometimes here, there are some Arabs that treat me bad. Not bad but they do not show me the same respect as someone that is Arab. Basically some think that because we are black we are the N word. Its cool because never would I think "ALL" Arabs are like that. I've met some great ones too that treat me good. Just some people have a bad perception of blacks: understood.

I only posted because it seems like everyone is generalizing. To know what 1 Billion people are like is not feasible. The Quran does not force women to wear Burkas. It is advised they cover their hair but that is because the hair on a women is beautiful and men get attracted by that (generally speaking). This is why their dress is modest and plain as well. It is to limit desires and temptation. It may be an old fashion way of thinking but if you look at Orthodox Jews and Christians they believe the same. Women in those societies dont wear revealing clothing.

I do not have all the answers. I am Sunni but not an extremist or radical. Just a regular guy really. If you have some questions I can try to get you answers from the texts in which we refer to. I am no scholar so I cannot promise you anything but I will try. The comments here are all healthy, people should be allowed to vent and say how they feel. Honestly, France has the right to do what they want. People are scared and tired of all this madness. These radicals are making it uncomfortable for us all. I have a hard time now too at airports etc. I understand it tho and do not get upset. Its all apart of life. Like others have said, people can always move somewhere else. Its not that easy but it can be done if that country is not tolerent of their beliefs.



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