Women who wear burkas on the street in France face fines of £700

Originally posted by mamabeth
reply to post by Unity_99

 

The problem is,these women HAVE to wear those burkas.You will have to
explain to your children why these women are treated the way they are.
Muslim women,who don't dress or behave, the way their faith dictates,
could be killed.
Would you want a muslim woman to face a possible death sentence,just
so your children aren't exposed to their dress or treatment?

That they HAVE TO wear the burka is the main point of the discussion, isn't it? Passing a law to make that illegal is a good thing. Security issues are part of the problem, and treating those women as though they are nothing but meat is another. That they could be killed for not wearing one is a perfect example of why I will not defend the "right" to such practices.

reply to post by LadyGreenEyes


Christian Bible: Paul to the Ephesians in the New Testament
"The women shall be servants to their men who are their masters."

Amish women wear bonnets. Pentecostals forbid a women to wear pants.

There are sects of Christianity who force certain laws about women, just as their are certain sects in Islam that force burkahs.

While I am glad to hear of your own personal domestic bliss, there are still many Christian men who feel the right to abuse their women too, but while they claim it is a religious choice, IT IS A PERSONAL ONE. (and a disgusting one at that.)

Originally posted by RamsOnTop
Wow! Bush's war on Islam is at its peak. Too many people are buying into this idea of hate the Muslims. And it's really working. It's getting pretty scary out there.

Oh, brother! This has ZERO to do with Bush. We are talking about burkas in France.

BTW, it isn't hating people to support their right to walk about without having to hide their face. Get a clue.

Originally posted by LadyGreenEyes

Originally posted by RamsOnTop
Wow! Bush's war on Islam is at its peak. Too many people are buying into this idea of hate the Muslims. And it's really working. It's getting pretty scary out there.

Oh, brother! This has ZERO to do with Bush. We are talking about burkas in France.

BTW, it isn't hating people to support their right to walk about without having to hide their face. Get a clue.

But it is hateful to not let them choose that right. "rights" forced upon people are not rights at all, It is the start of Facism.

Originally posted by seattletruth

Originally posted by minigunner
reply to post by RamsOnTop

 

You are obviously not privy to their 15 year plan.

You are not privy to "what would Jesus do".

Think about it.

What would Jesus do. If you think he would outlaw women's freedom to dress how they like, then you are a fool.

Turn the other cheek.

Do you truly not see that the burka demeans ALL in a culture that supports wearing one? The point is to cover up the women, the idea being that if they are not covered, then they are offering themselves to be raped. That treats the women as nothing but meat, and the men as nothing but animals. It's disrespectful to ALL involved. That's my issue with the burka.

Plus, you can't disregard the security issues. if I walked into a bank, or other place of business, with a bandanna over my face, the cops would be called, because the assumption would be that I was there to rob the place. Thus, no culture should be allowed to cover their faces, either.

Originally posted by Occy Anonymous
But this is clearly an anti-religious law.
We all bag out on certain Islamic countries for their anti-Christian laws, but gladly aprove when France does the same thing? This is just purely revenge motivated and to incite even more negative feelings towards Muslims. Especially considering their is a good chance of some fanatic retaliating.

One cannot live in fear of some "fanatic retaliating"- fanatics are in denmark with axes breaking into the homes of pensioners (in the company of their 5 year old grandaughters) intending to behead him for having the audacity to draw a cartoon.

Muslims are free to follow their religion in France- they are not free (nor is any other person) to cover their women in head to toe like bee keepers.

This is hardly akin to burning down places of worship- if any of the Islamic extremists (because if you are someone who wishes to cover women completely you are an extremist) feel this law is a hardship, then they should be given the air fair to settle in an islamic country of their choice (with the caveat that they revoke all rights to future resettlement in that countr)

You can't just single one religion out because of a few bad eggs. Why not just put every catholic priest on the sex offenders list? As for a security issue, I really don't see how this is a security issue at all.

I believe child abuse is already an offence, so any scum priests are well covered with the current legislation (though I would tighten up any laws, longer harsher sentences for paedos and execution for child murderers)

Yes some are forced, SOME. But forcing them ALL to not wear one is even worse. You are asking them to choose between their faith and a better quality of life.

It is hardly worse- if these women are so extreme *and I think you know it is rarely, if ever, voluntary, if it were voluntary why do men not indulge in this medievel method of dressing?* then they either never leave the home or dress in a different manner or leave the country






[edit on 12-1-2010 by blueorder]

reply to post by blueorder


But you are assuming all women are wearing these because they are forced. The majority or Muslim men do not mind, again it is only the extremists and you have been flooded with so many images and stories of abuse in Islam that you are thinking all Muslim men abuse their wives, IT IS ONLY A SMALL MINORITY WHO ARE FORCED TO WEAR BURKAHS.

Yes laws on pedophilia are well established, just as laws on women abuse already are, but it is forcing someone to remove something of their religious faith, the burkah has nothing to do with abusing women. Modesty is one of the biggest ideals of Islam.

Again yes IT IS ONLY A MINORITY WHO ARE FORCED. It is just the images and stories we are flooded with everyday that make it seem like it is the majority. It is the exact same thing as the little banana on extremist channels telling all the Islam children to kill jews. You have grown up with it your entire life and believe it, no matter how intelligent and free willed you think you are it is not true.

Originally posted by Occy Anonymous
But you are assuming all women are wearing these because they are forced. The majority or Muslim men do not mind, again it is only the extremists and you have been flooded with so many images and stories of abuse in Islam that you are thinking all Muslim men abuse their wives, IT IS ONLY A SMALL MINORITY WHO ARE FORCED TO WEAR BURKAHS.

Please do not try and tell me whay images and stories I have read, you have no idea what I have or have not read.


I disagree with your "small minority"- it is my assertion that an overwhelming majority do cover up under the influence of the males in their lives.

FURTHERMORE- whether it is "personal" or "pressured", to be honest, I am past caring- whether these ladies wish to voluntarily oppress themselves or are pressured, I do not wish it to be a regular sight in our western countries- I would back any law which banned it. Sometimes tolerance produces fruits which are rather decayed and soured.

If it is Soooo empowering, why are these Muslim men not covering up?

Yes laws on pedophilia are well established, just as laws on women abuse already are, but it is forcing someone to remove something of their religious faith, the burkah has nothing to do with abusing women. Modesty is one of the biggest ideals of Islam.

Clearly it is not integral to the faith, as most Muslim women do not completley cover up- it is a choice (whether volunarily or involuntarily_ that some women make in terms of their faith- their choice in how they follow their faith is incompatible with the norms, traditions and cultures built up over centuries in western europe.

Similarly, if a european woman moves to an Islamic country, she will have to forgo her "choice" of wearing a skimpy bikini in accordance with local custom

Again yes IT IS ONLY A MINORITY WHO ARE FORCED. It is just the images and stories we are flooded with everyday that make it seem like it is the majority. It is the exact same thing as the little banana on extremist channels telling all the Islam children to kill jews. You have grown up with it your entire life and believe it, no matter how intelligent and free willed you think you are it is not true.

You are the one with prejudices here, you have no idea what I read or what images I have seen, so you can shout "minority" from the rooftops it does not make it any more of a fact or even likely with any reasoned assessment of the situation.

I hope the rest of Europe acts soon- an increasing Islamic population will only bring greater community strife, apartheid, division and oppression.

Kudos to the swiss as well

This thread is making my head hurt!

Everyone calm down and take a step back.

1) Firstly, it is not Muslims or Islam that are the problem - it is RADICAL ISLAM which constitutes a small minority of Muslims worldwide. Think about it, if most of 1.4b+ Muslims were hell-bent on violence and chaos, there would be many more deaths than there are. A lot of people are exaggerating the threat of the average Muslim next door.

Yes, there ARE extremists that pose a danger to non-believers, but this is a minority and it is grossly unfair to assume most behave in these ways. Why not give your Muslim neighbour the benefit of the doubt and befriend them? Get to know them. If you don't wish to then don't, just don't assume all the worst about them because they follow religion X.

Moderate Muslims are taking positive steps towards silencing extremists and denouncing violence against the West. Islamic extremism hurts moderate Muslims as well as non-Muslims. Hating and discriminating against a minority is unfair and unreasonable for any group of people.

2) France is a sovereign nation and has the right to enact any rules that it wants. Considering there has been agreement that this law is necessary then that is the decision and those living there will need to adapt to it. Yes, the West does pride itself on being free and tolerant, but if certain clothing is causing issues for the majority of citizens then the solution to the problem must be fitting. You would notice that it is not particularly directed at Muslims, but rather minorities in general. I recall a law already in existence that prevents religious symbols/clothing being worn in public schools. I think that includes Crucifixes too. That was made for similar reasons.

3) The burka is a more noticeable religious marker than a Crucifix, Star of David or Ying Yang. It has the potential to cause disruptions and problems in situations where people's faces need to be seen unobstructed and in clear view. In Muslim nations this is not an issue because it is written law that they are allowed - and actually should - be worn. France is not a Muslim nation. It has rules and laws of its own. Muslims living there will need to respect that and cannot shout "racist" every time they are asked to assimilate and integrate. Like other foreigners, Muslims that emigrate to France need to respect the laws of the country. If they do not wish to respect these laws, or plan to make tension in the new country, they should not go there.

heres a thought if i go to saudi arabia and wear a bikini and paint my nails and uncover my face then by there laws i can be stones, or locked up.
but if they come over here they can preach hatred towards the country that is giving them asylum and they can wear generally what they want.
im with france we should have the smae law in england after all last time i heard this country was officially church of england which is prodestant

and ill point out im not christian, im anti all religion for my own reasons

surly its the same as banning hats and hoodies in shops or offensive t shirts in public should these people be allowed to express there individualness as well!!!

[edit on 12/1/2010 by kerrichin]

reply to post by blueorder


reply to post by blueorder


I never said it was your fault you have seen and read this, so maybe you need to stop taking it so personally. Anyone who has lived in the western world has been flooded with anti-Islam images their whole lives, just as anybody who has lived in the Middle East has been flooded with Anti-Christianity/Jewish images. Again you are assuming that Islam is one religion, Islam has many different sects and beliefs the Burkah is only integral to a minority of them

Muslim men do generally show modesty however you don't notice them, like any human you only notice the bad ones not the ordinary ones. Yes, you would BUT A BIKINI IS NOT A RELIGIOUS ARTICLE.

Every religion has extremists in certain sects who will twist words in their belief system to suit the socio-pathic personalities. You can not punish a whole society because of a tiny minority. Some Sects of Islams, a Burkah is required just as my father wore a Yarmulke(yes, he was Jewish) so why not fine Jews for wearing Yarmulkes or Christians for wearing crosses, just because you are ignorant of other cultures it doesn't mean you have a right to force them how to live.

Why not just force them to wear yellow stars or get serial numbers like Hitler did to the Jews, because this is exactly how that started. Singling out a specific religion with extreme laws under the guise of "protecting the majority".

Originally posted by jpmail
reply to post by Occy Anonymous

 

So its in there religion to subjagate women, treat them worse than animals or as substanard humans, kill gays, stone to death anyone that breaks there religious laws and its part of there culture so it must be ok then?

Jog on religious types move to my counrty and have it your way just be sure to make sure the locals are also forced to obey we are all one world.

Tell you what how about you move to another country and see how far you get trying to force your ways on them, I dont think you will last long.

Freedom of choice is not a right to force your ways on another. If one culture is happy to adjust then all fine and well but none and I mean none of these people where forced into moving to France or live in France.

They made a choice they need to live by Frances rule or move to another country that suits there views better.

I garuntee though none of them will because there is a big lack of wellfare states in muslim countries, there is not the same freedom of choice nor as much oppertunity to advance through life.

totally agree with your post and we have the same problem happening in britain.
we alsohave a right on our own shores to express our culture and the same with france

Originally posted by Occy Anonymous
reply to post by blueorder

 

reply to post by blueorder

 

Muslim men do generally show modesty however you don't notice them, like any human you only notice the bad ones not the ordinary ones. Yes, you would BUT A BIKINI IS NOT A RELIGIOUS ARTICLE.

arr but what about sun worshippers

but on the serious side its still the fact if a woman should have the right to wear a burka in france a woman should be allowed to wear a bikini in saudi arabia its still her right as a human being and her choice religion should not play a part, as religion is a personal choice so is an item of clothing

also a woman WAS banned from wearing a cross in england a few years ago but another woman faught and won the right to wear a burka if one religious emblam is not allowed then neither shold another especially if the emblam that is banned is actually from the religion of that country

[edit on 12/1/2010 by kerrichin]

Originally posted by Occy Anonymous
I never said it was your fault you have seen and read this

but you do not know what I see or read

so maybe you need to stop taking it so personally.

I take it personally when I am told what I am reading/seeing

Anyone who has lived in the western world has been flooded with anti-Islam images their whole lives

In the UK the mainstream media bends over backwards to highlight the extremist minority and that most muslims are not violent. Furthermore I do my research and viewing on my terms, not what the media dictates

. Again you are assuming that Islam is one religion, Islam has many different sects and beliefs the Burkah is only integral to a minority of them

It is one religion with differing interpretations and paths, same with Christianity, I assume nothing

Muslim men do generally show modesty however you don't notice them, like any human you only notice the bad ones not the ordinary ones.

Again with the assessment of what I see and do not see- I do not only notice the "bad" ones thank you, and furthermore, there muslim men, however modest, do not completely cover themselves from head to toe in the manner of the women we are discussing

Yes, you would BUT A BIKINI IS NOT A RELIGIOUS ARTICLE.

and what, religion does not trump secularism in the west

Every religion has extremists in certain sects who will twist words in their belief system to suit the socio-pathic personalities. You can not punish a whole society because of a tiny minority. Some Sects of Islams, a Burkah is required just as my father wore a Yarmulke(yes, he was Jewish) so why not fine Jews for wearing Yarmulkes or Christians for wearing crosses, just because you are ignorant of other cultures it doesn't mean you have a right to force them how to live.

covering a woman completely is different from a chain- you have no idea of my knowledge of cultures and I am not forcing anyone to move to Franc, same way as I am not forcing Saudis to accept semi naked women on their beaches- perhaps it is I who truly accept cultures, did you consider that!

Why not just force them to wear yellow stars or get serial numbers like Hitler did to the Jews, because this is exactly how that started. Singling out a specific religion with extreme laws under the guise of "protecting the majority".

Instant fail with the Hitler/Jew thing

reply to post by Dark Ghost


Adult male to adult female........ I'm not certain of his age but she she was 17 at the time and her sister was 20. Granted in most places they are adults (or close enough) but I'm also certain she handled it differently at 17 than she may have at 25, 30, whatever. At 17 most girls, regardless of where they call home, have not had much experience in dealing with idiots like him. And to be honest, I'm round about 30 and I'd have stop myself from acting in the same manner, hopefully by this point in my life I've learned some self restraint, but the thought would cross my mind.

There seem to be a lot of posters arguing the point of heritage, that the burka is part of their heritage and should be allowed to wear it keep "in touch" with their roots. I disagree on this point.

First, the only areas where the wearing of the burqa could be called common, is Afghanistan and parts of Pakistan. In Afghanistan, it was required under the Taliban and since some areas have been removed of Taliban influence, many women (especially in cities) have opted not to wear it.

Second, the burka predates Islam and was worn by both men and women. Largely it was worn as protection against the harsh climate, it still serves this purpose for some today. Last I checked France has no problem with sand storms and this garment serves no purpose.

And, as I said a few pages ago, the majority of Muslim women do not wear the burka or niqaab and most scholars to not deem it to be a requirement of the faith. It seems irresponsible, to me, to risk the security of a nations citizens (including other Muslims) for something that is unnecessary both religiously and functionally.

reply to post by blueorder


BY your shallow I think it's pretty safe to assume exactly what you have fun. You have live a spoilt life just like me just like anyone who live in the west.

Your whole argument is based on hypocrisy. You condemn an Arab nation for having laws like this, yet you will gladly support it when one of your nations passes one? Hahahahaha.

Seriously mate, you can't say it's not cool for an Arab nation to pass a law that woman have to be covered to protect modesty(not to mention from the extremists) and then say it is cool that France passes one. I am sorry you are so hell bent on revenge, now good bye and good luck. Because yes this is exactly like how the whole Hitler business started, BUT LUCKY YOU, you're on the majority sides.

Basically the small minority who husbands force them to wear burkahs will no doubt take revenge on their own wives thanks to these laws. You are imprisoning these women to their homes, and segregating them from society simply because of their religion. It is simple: The French just don't want to see so many muslims on the street, they are a paranoid/weak government and always have been, and sadly many other Western countries will follow suit. This is no way to achieve peace, by getting rid of everyone who thinks differently.

[edit on 12-1-2010 by Occy Anonymous]

Originally posted by searching4truth
And, as I said a few pages ago, the majority of Muslim women do not wear the burka or niqaab and most scholars to not deem it to be a requirement of the faith. It seems irresponsible, to me, to risk the security of a nations citizens (including other Muslims) for something that is unnecessary both religiously and functionally.

Great post. If it isn't a religious requirement I think it still symbolically serves as an attachment to the homeland and the faith for those people, requirements aside. I think it's important we keep this in mind.

reply to post by DEEZNUTZ


i couldnt agree more, changing rules and laws in britain has shown what a mistake this is, we try to be compasionate and accepting towards new ideas and cultures, and what do we get, extreme social exclution leading to violence and escalating tention between isolated groups.

to imply that native countries should change all there customs for the wants of imagrants seems obsurd. the problem stems from the natural feeling of presteige from the countries native people and the idea that their values are greater than those of imigrants and such because theyve been there longer. sombody once said that theirs no such thing as ownership of land, i argue that there must be. otherwise people would be simply walking into each others houses at will. so to some extent all humans must have a concept of ownership of land.

the best way to ensure peaceful relations between cultures is to simply allow them to exist within themselfs and stop the inflitration of them enforcing laws to protect the majority culture of a country. of course this solution then provides problems for future development of said culture.

i personally dislike how things are run now but it could actually be worse. the solution to the problem is to worry about offending them by being strict about our customs.

reply to post by LadyGreenEyes


"Muslim women,who don't dress or behave, the way their faith dictates,
could be killed"

dont you think its time islam modernised , just a little to get with the times. without meaning to sound insulting, any religeon that produces a death sentance for somthing as trivial as choice of clothing is in need of a major face lift in my opinion