Harder To Believe In - God or Aliens?

I agree they are seperate yet it is my firm belief it is like they are hard wired. Like ROM memory in a computer. Everything they know they knew when they were created. They only do what God has wired them to do and by his commands. So, Although they are seperate created entities everything they do is by the hand of God and not by free will. If you are visited by an Angel then you have been visited by God and the act of the Angel is an act of God. When an Angel touches your soul it is God's will and the hand of God. The Angels cannot do anything in which God did not command or hard wire into them. When you speak to an Angel you are speaking to God through the Angel and the Angel speaks God's word back to you. The Angels are the bridge between man and God.

[Edited on 1-6-2004 by Raphael]

I'm not sure on the free will aspect. That's how Satan came to be. I believe the Church teaches that angels do have free will but if they turn against God, that's it, there's no coming back.

From what I understand, the only angel that was created with a free will, was Satan. And because the unseen world is as ordered as an army, with ranks and such, a lot of angels under the command of Satan followed him as he turned against God.
Hmm I'll try to find out more regarding this subject.

Jakko is dead on accurate.

God knew everything about you before you were born and even before time itself. God knows who you are and what you will do in your life before you have even lived it. When God created the universe he already knew who you are. There was God and then God created the Angels. The Angels were hard wired and knew you before you were even in existence. The Angels are hard wired with their knowledge and could see from the time they were created until the end of time the instance they were brought into creation. The Angels can not do harm or bad things out of free will. They can only act on God's plan and God's will. The Angels are created "beings" of light yet their actions are actions of God since they cannot do anything in which God did not "program" them to do when they were created. They truly are a divine creation in God's plan. An extension of God's will. The arm, actions, and works of God's plan and commandments. They truly have grace.

[Edited on 1-6-2004 by Raphael]

Wow.

I know I said I was bailing out of this thread, but someone has to call a halt to this.

Raphael, what the hell was that last post? Firstly, I don't see how jakko being "dead-on accurate" - or otherwise - resulted in such a bizarre reply. Are you stating your genuine beliefs, posting just to get your number of ATS points up, or making some kind of elaborate theological joke?

Looking back over your previous posts, I have the horrible sinking feeling that you were being serious...

If God knew how it was all going to turn out before it even started:

a) Why bother doing it at all? If he already knew what the outcome would be, why bother with the process? Was God unimaginably bored one Monday morning?
b) Why create "flawed", "ignorant" people like myself who don't believe? Surely He would have anticipated my skepticism (rationalism) and made sure I was corrected?
c) Why allow other religions? "No God but Me", I think he said - but he went out of his way to create people who believe differently?
d) And here we go again: do you have even a tiny particle of evidence? Anything at all?

If God knew everything, it could only have been because everything was predetermined. If everything was predetermined, then there is no such thing as free will. If there is no such thing as free will, then there can be no temptation, no redemption, and no morality. QED, Raphael: you just talked yourself out of a religion.

Jakko, CS, you have my sympathies. It looks as if you've uncovered the theist version of NOGODSINTHEUNIVERSE.

If God knew everything, it could only have been because everything was predetermined. If everything was predetermined, then there is no such thing as free will. If there is no such thing as free will, then there can be no temptation, no redemption, and no morality. QED, Raphael: you just talked yourself out of a religion.

Jakko, CS, you have my sympathies. It looks as if you've uncovered the theist version of NOGODSINTHEUNIVERSE.

You are not understanding what I have said so I will try and be clearer. The Angels are predetermined because they have been hard wired. Man has free will therefore your life is not predetermined although God almighty DOES know what decisions and choices you will make in your life. God knows all about you before you were born. Are you trying to say God cannot see the future? Your confusion of God knowing all things from the beginning of time to the end has nothing to do with predetermination. God knows what choices you will make in your life before you make them. Are you suggesting God is not capable of this? God knows all things..

Jeremiah 1:4-5
4 The word of the LORD came to me, saying, 5 �Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart;

[Edited on 1-6-2004 by Raphael]

I don't want to pick at semantics, Raphael, but if God knows all things before they happen, then they are predetermined. If I know exactly what you are going to do tomorrow, then those actions must be already decided, mustn't they? Otherwise there would be nothing to prevent you from changing your mind, and my "knowledge" would be incorrect. To know the future is to define the future, and to define the future is to rob those who live in it of their free will.

Free will is not a matter of degrees. It's an all-or-nothing kind of deal. Either God knew the way every damn thing would turn out before he ever got of His cloud and started the wheels turning, or He simply pushed the play button and everything since then has been a surprise to Him.

All, or nothing.

I can see this is going to get into a scientific discussion if we continue on with this and this is not the thread for discussing the science or biblical definition of predetermination. If you believe life is not predetermined yet then science shows time travel is possible does that mean you no longer have free will? To YOU in YOUR life you cannot see the future therefore your actions are free will and choices that YOU make. When God created the world and all things he saw which he had created from beginning to end because he created time itself. This is an interesting topic of discussion but I would hate to hijack this thread farther of the subject then we already have.

Heres an analogy which may help.

Time itself is speeding up. If you could look at our galaxy from the outside you would notice time itself is increasing. Why? Because our galaxy and our solar system is moving faster raising our consciousness. Although this is happening over time we do not notice much because we are not on the outside looking in.

Physics through super string theory shows time travel IS indeed possible in theory does that mean you have no free will?

The grace of God was given to us in Christ before time began (2 Tim. 1:9)

[Edited on 1-6-2004 by Raphael]

This is not a scientific discussion. If anything, this is a matter of philosophy. And I doubt that this particular debate will lead this thread any further from the topic than it has already strayed. Besides, when ATS points become legal currency, CommonSense will be richer than Bill Gates!

I don't believe that science allows for artificial non-relative time travel (apart, of course, from the rather mundane procession through time which we endure every second of the day) - there's certainly no reliable evidence which suggests that travelling into the past is in any way possible.

Perhaps I'm simply blinded by metaphor, but I don't see the relevance of your analogy - perhaps you are illustrating the dangers of flawed objectivity?

EDIT: And by the way, changing your posts to include additional arguments when the original message has already been replied to is very bad form.

[Edited on 1-6-2004 by StrangeLands]

Originally posted by StrangeLands
I don't want to pick at semantics, Raphael, but if God knows all things before they happen, then they are predetermined. If I know exactly what you are going to do tomorrow, then those actions must be already decided, mustn't they? Otherwise there would be nothing to prevent you from changing your mind, and my "knowledge" would be incorrect.

I personally don't think we're supposed to try to understand these subjects, even though I also try sometimes.
I think it's a mix.
Gods intelligence and knowledge about humans and all events in the world is on such a huge level, that He can predict pretty much anything, simply by calculation chances and options.
This does not mean we do not have free will, or choice.
I know it's pretty weird to realize this, and thinking about it kinda drives me insane at a point. It does not matter what I choose, God knows every single molecule and thought that I consist of.
I still somehow think that we can "surprise" God by what we do.
Not a true surprise, but when we do the right thing at a point where the bad thing was the most likely thing to do, I think God sees it and remembers it.
This is merely an attempt to understand one of the most complicated concepts in Christianity, and I only know one thing for sure. That I can never fully understand God or his systems/thoughts.

Originally posted by StrangeLands
This is not a scientific discussion. If anything, this is a matter of philosophy. And I doubt that this particular debate will lead this thread any further from the topic than it has already strayed. Besides, when ATS points become legal currency, CommonSense will be richer than Bill Gates!

I don't believe that science allows for artificial non-relative time travel (apart, of course, from the rather mundane procession through time which we endure every second of the day) - there's certainly no reliable evidence which suggests that travelling into the past is in any way possible.

Perhaps I'm simply blinded by metaphor, but I don't see the relevance of your analogy - perhaps you are illustrating the dangers of flawed objectivity?

You know you bring up a very good point and one search in google on this subject brings up thousands of debates. It certainly seems like a paradox. I am glad you brought up the topic for discussion. I am going to have to think about this farther because you have indeed stopped me in my tracks to really give it some more thought. The bible teahces that God knew us all and all things from the beginning of time to the end of time when he created all things. If this is the case I see your argument for "free will" yet if God does not interfere with your existence and you make choices yourself eventhough God may know these choices your argument is that there really is no free will then. Interesting debate and I'm gld you brought this discussion to the table.

well im no atheist and absolutely believe in extraterrestrial intelligence. seeing as i believe in both i would have thought IMHO that ET�s would probably have gods the same as us and some ET's would be atheist like us. if you subscribe to the possibility that there are many ET life forms out there, then the possibility�s are endless, and would quite probably be incomprehensible to us.

Well it's certainly possible to believe in both. I think there is only one God who created everything.

^^^^^

Only one God created the entire Universe yet I do believe the possibilty of more advanced life in the universe. Any other God besides the creator is a false God.

Sorry if this has been said already I didn't have time too read all posts, but really good topic. Firstly let me say I don't believe in a god, and i'm not too sure what I do believe.
Just wanted too say that although there is a bible which describes how God created life, the bible it self is written by human hands and even if they where contacted by a messiah or something else, there are still human and I am sure that the creation of this universe with all it's life, is and probably always will be too complex and wonderful for any living being to complete comprehend. I feel that if the religious side of creation is to be believed, we must accept that holy scripts don't always mention a complete and absolute story as it's impossible to understand, and you can't write about something that you don't fully understand. What I really love and find most admirable about religion and in some ways feel envious for people with faith, is that blind trust that have, and it's a trust that can accomidate anything that science throws at it. That trust that just as you don't understand why something don't quite match up you still KNOW that god exists.
Please comment on my post I would love to read any reactions or comments.

[Edited on 1/6/2004 by ReLEx]

You are not understanding what I have said so I will try and be clearer. The Angels are predetermined because they have been hard wired. Man has free will therefore your life is not predetermined although God almighty DOES know what decisions and choices you will make in your life. God knows all about you before you were born. Are you trying to say God cannot see the future? Your confusion of God knowing all things from the beginning of time to the end has nothing to do with predetermination. God knows what choices you will make in your life before you make them. Are you suggesting God is not capable of this? God knows all things..

If you say that god knows what choices you WILL make then those choices are predetermined and concepts in the bible such as sins and living a pure and good life seems too fail here but as my past post says things like this could be explained as merely a level of comprehension that we can't gain.
If you have a predeterminded set of decisions in your life then you might as well sit back and relax as nothing you do can change your life, so sleep late miss church, gods got it covered.
There is no difference between a set life and foresight the two are pair.

[Edited on 1/6/2004 by ReLEx]