The End of America, “Gone Without a Whimper”

reply to post by Logarock

Swartzkopf's plan was to hit the Iraqi Army head on.

Call me a liar, but I looked at the map and told those around me that they should "hold them in place" near the sea, and just do a wide flanking motion wide enough to corral the Republican Guard units that were holding back just inside Iraq.

It was painfully obvious. Hold their attention to threat of a beach assault, hold them by the nose, and then kick them in the ass wide.

I learn later that Schwartzkopf's original plan was to hit from the near sea line, and using force, go straight up the middle.

A retired Colonel John Boyd was called to Washington to review the plan, and he almost had a stroke. He called Schwartzkopf's plan the "hey diddle, diddle, right up the middle" a disaster.

Colonel John Boyd saw the same identical same thing I did, and suggested the wide flanking motion to not only effect the defeat of forces in Kuwait, but wide enough also to sack the Republican Guard units.

I always wanted to meet Colonel Boyd before he died, but missed out. The US owes this man an unbelievable debt, and most people have never even heard of him.

He knew the principles of warfare.

Knew them.

Not to be guilty of peevishness myself, or to belabor a point I have often made, but there seems to be a vast inability to ‘hear’ what has been repeatedly posted by myself and others as concerns ‘numbers’, ‘preparedness’, ‘capabilities’, ‘military assistance’, or ‘lack thereof’ and determination of the different mobilizing Patriot groups; historically, some of the most successful resistance movements were started by small groups of determined men who refused to be pushed any further. They were massively out armed, out numbered, and were considered rabble, but their heart and determination won the day.

Consider what our founding fathers faced, being little more than what the British considered them to be: ‘farmers with pitchforks’, they faced the best equipped army and navy in the world. Thank God their first concern was not “who will feed us” & “who will supply what we need”, nor did they worry about their row boat navy facing hundreds of British ships of the line; with barely a thought about facing thousands of magnificently equipped and ordered Red Coats, they stood their ground and fought for Liberty.

Most without uniforms or even good shoes, most never properly fed or equipped, most with their only resupply being what they could pick up, they fought and won against the largest, best equipped, professional army in the world. They won because of heart, commitment and determination. Just as we will.

reply to post by SGTChas
Here's an account of what our Founding Father endured, to secure, what seems so taken for granted today

Winter of 1779-80 In New Jersey
www.revolutionarywararchives.org...

After his successful operations in 1776-1777 and the defeat of the British at Trenton and Princeton, General George Washington chose Morristown, New Jersey for his winter encampment. For strategic reasons it was ideal. He was 31 miles from New York City, hence would have adequate time to defend against a British move against either the Hudson Highlands, or against Philadelphia. At the same time he was protected from an attack by the Watchung Mountains and swamplands to the east, and the Ramapo Hills which ran north to join the Hudson Highlands. During.the Revolutionary War period there were very few roads and the country­side was densely wooded, making the few existing passes very defensible.

The Winter of 1777-1778 was spent at Valley Forge after a successful British invasion from New York.

After the defeat at Saratoga and the promise of French intervention, the British decided they could not defend both New York City and recently captured Philadelphia. They evacuated Philadelphia, were intercepted at Monmouth Court House where they suffered heavy losses. Monmouth ended that year's major operations for both the Americans and British.

More at Link...

And some other Links...

Sons of Liberty Chapter--Sons of the American Revolution
www.revolutionarywararchives.org...

[edit on 6/3/2009 by Hx3_1963]

Originally posted by Anonymous Avatar

Actually since the Federal Reserve came into being the Dollar has lost 96 percent of it's value. I am not sure how you consider that type of inflation "cheap." Maybe you don't grasp basic economic concepts which I would be happy to explain to you if you would like. It's very simple, if inflation just merely doubles due to Bailouts and the Fed, then the job where you make 70k a year means you have the buying power of only a 35k a year job a year ago. I hope that is not too advanced for you to understand.

Not at all, but the point being to *accelerate* progress requires capital in the form of credit. More credit/value for more projects than would be possible otherwise. You cannot give people credit you do not have without a fiat system. And if you do not give them credit then you have no project. Yes it is not perfect in that you are mortgaging your future but the point being is that it WORKS and has worked in this day and age of ever accelerating progres. You are talking about an era prior to an communication/information based society in which transactions now occur faster than any human could keep up with. Today's system affords more opportunity for more people simultaneously.

Originally posted by Anonymous Avatar
Founding Fathers aside, the tens of thousands of men who actually did the fighting for the founding of our country did so in the name of freedom. Freedom from a centralized and oppressive government that was the British Empire at the time. The lifestyle you are describing is exactly what they fought and exactly what those in this thread are discussing defending. So if you are going to sit and preach about how great it is why would you possibly put those down willing to defend it???

Your strawman and appeal to popularity aside (not to mention the fact that people are STILL defending it as am i in this very case).... the point is the US government IS NOT OPPRESSIVE. I brought up the fact that when all this was occuring the founders and all the european immigrants had come out of 1000 years of the church enforcing social norms (something you totall ignored in your strawman). Since our chruch and state are separate there has been a decline in social norms being enforced by the church. Not surprisingly there has been a rise of crime. So who cleans up the mess for a *free* people? Government. Secondly the argument against centralized gov't is so tired and does not hold any water upon close inspection. Your state ruling you would be centralized within your states boundries; the rules do not change due to land mass. Centralized authority as we have is more efficient simply put.

Originally posted by Anonymous Avatar
So while I am being a 'retard' could you please explain to all of us what the hell you are arguing for and arguing about? The lifestyle you just described to me is exactly what is being destroyed by our Government.

Yeah I'm sure you think so... for the past 15 years I've been hearing the same thing and yet people are still running around in their high priced cars, buying houses, going to work, chillin out as they please and at the same time we're still performing on a national level some of the greatest scientific breakthroughs the human race has ever produced. Oh yeah the gov't just has it out for all of you. Please rock this boat some more because it really needs it.
I'm not saying everything is perfect, but you guys are going overboard on your theories... there have been bad people in our government and it has done bad things, but you would have this with ANY gov't with no recourse in most.

Please rock this boat some more because it really needs it.
I'm not saying everything is perfect, but you guys are going overboard on your theories... there have been bad people in our government and it has done bad things, but you would have this with ANY gov't with no recourse in most.

Maybe I'm missing something here...

Didn't WE TELL Congress NOT to "Bail Out" EVERYTHING...

And they did it anyways..."for our own good"...how do you suppose we achieve our "recourse" now that it's done and over ???

[edit on 6/3/2009 by Hx3_1963]

im also gonna hope this is wrong...

Originally posted by libertytoall
Part of your problem is you don't understand that modern revolution has a new title description. A revolutionary fighter is a terrorist.

That's true enough, but it's not anything new. There has long been a maxim that "One man's Freedom Fighter is another man's Terrorist"

In Rhodesia, in the '70s, all of the guerilla fighters were labelled as 'terrorists' or just 'terrs' by the government. Granted, I never shared their marxist philosophy, but for all that I realized that guerrilla fighters were NOT terrorists. The two operate in entirely different manners, and spheres of influence. For that reason, I never agreed with the label 'CTs' or 'Communist Terrorists' either. Mind you, I don't have any scruples about dropping the hammer on such, but I know the difference.

That was a common problem in Africa in those days. In Angola, Jonas Savimbi's 'right wing' bunch were also labelled as 'terrorists' when they were in fact guerrillas, so it wasn't limited to the left side of the equation.

I can label a bar of gold with a sticker that says 'croutons', but the label doesn't change what it IS.

nenothtu out

reply to post by Hazelnut


You aren't as alone as you may think, but I know it feels that way. Right now, there is a seething mass of thoroughly irritated Americans, all itching for "something" to be done, by someone, but they are all 'alone'. They have no direction or focus. But they're there.

When the day comes that this reaches critical mass, and I personally think it's fast approaching, all those people will realize that they aren't really 'alone' after all. They will pull closer together, but initially lack leadership to direct them. An angry mob is a fearful thing. when a spark sets off a leaderless mob, things get really ugly, really quick.

We can't all be leaders, but there's no shame in that. An organization with too many chiefs and not enough indians usually peters out pretty quickly, due to infighting, and being pulled apart in several directions all at once. for example, I'm not a 'leader' of anything at all. I've done the job in the past, but that doesn't make me a 'leader', and my days of leading anything at all are over. But I've got ideas, and any leader worth his salt will consider the input of his suburdinates before making a decision. we may not be 'leaders', but that doesn't negate our value.

You need to understand that you are NOT alone. There are LOTS of folks out there, just like you. They feel angry, lost, without leadership or direction. They feel isolated, and that's just the way TPTB like it. One individual alone is far less likely to challenge the status quo than a bunch of people angry about that status quo. Add leadership, direction, and focus to that equation, and you have the makings of a force to be reckoned with. TPTB know that, too. That's why they foster these divisions among us, and the feelings of 'isolation' and 'helplessness'. When the people understand that, things are gonna move fast.

There's an old saying: "Comes the moment, comes the man". When critical mass is reached, leaders will pop out of the woodwork. It's always been that way, and always will be.

YOU ARE NOT ALONE.

nenothtu out


[edit on 2009/6/3 by nenothtu]

reply to post by Anonymous Avatar


You bring up a very good point. Sometimes, it IS best to be alone. No one else to look out for frees an individual up to do extraordinary things.

There's no one else to worry about. You don't have to fear injuring your own. There's no one they can take hostage and hold over your head to make you toe the mark.

I've operated in that mode for years, and have gotten pretty use to it. It IS a 'freeing' experience. There's lots more folks where I come from, too. United in isolation is an intriguing concept, and a valid one, even though it SEEMS to contradict itself.

But it's not for everyone. Humans in general are herd beasts, and get all out of sorts in isolation. It's an acquired taste.

But imagine if several million 'individuals' suddenly started acting out. Heck, does anyone remember the 'Beltway Sniper' case? What would have happened if only 50 of them had popped up, but spread out all over the states? With the panic that only two caused, 50 or a hundred could have brought this nation to it's knees.

Thank God they never figured that out.

reply to post by Hazelnut

Hazelnut, don't feel like the Lone Ranger. You may not be with an active group, but rest assured, you're not alone.

Frustration must be controlled. All things in their own time. Frustration will cause mistakes. Frustration will force bad situations.

Note the spider.

The spider waits. Patiently. He doesn't get in a hurry, and he's in no rush to go kill something. Just not his style. The carcasses of his kills are many, and just below.

Even when his prey is caught in his trap, there's no hurry. He lets them fuss and fret, and before long, they're exhausted.

And in the likely upcoming situation, patience to the extreme must be your guideline.

If things go sideways, you gotta be like the fox, not the lion.

All the lions will be killed off rather quickly. After all, that roaring **** doesn't cut bait.

Wait it out, and you'll find all sorts of like-minded, like-thinking folks. The longer you can wait it out, the better off you'll be, as the population will be drastically reduced each day. Fewer threats as time goes on.

You hang in there, and set by in store. Necessities. You'll be surprised how little a man really needs.

Patience.

Originally posted by debunky

Alexander the great: Perfected phalanx tactics vs. persian cavallery. The fact that a long pointy stick in a hedge formation is very effective against an enemy on a horse was rediscovered in the 15th century when cheap pikeniere made the higly trained and expensive knights obsolete.

The "rag tag force" employed guerillia tactics vs an enemy who played a lot "by the book", the then current book that is, wich said, stand on a field, shoot at each other until one side says "Ok, you won"
While guerillia tactics are very effective to this day they require a "hinterland" to withdraw too.

So unfortunately your examples for "numbers don't mean a thing" have nothing to do with numbers, but superiour tactics or technology respectively.

There's LOTS of 'hinterlands' in the US. Just scads.

There is also an overabundance of plenty good tacticians.

I imagine the first mushroom cloud from discontent will go up over the Rockies.

And someone will step up to the plate, and lead 'em on to victory.

If you place too much faith in breakable and DEFEATABLE technology, You ride towards loss by underestimating your enemy.

If 'technology' was the end-all, be-all answer, then all my brothers in Afghanistan would be home right now, drinking a beer with me.

Originally posted by HunkaHunka

See that's what doesn't make any sense to me. We are ALREADY slaves to the few. Reducing the population just reduces the amount of consumers, which would be anti-thetical to the financial slave ship we have been on for years now.

The few love the status quo... they don't want radical change...

As much as it pains me, I have to agree with you here.

The whole 'NWO depopulation' scheme never made any sense to me. Fewer consumers to line their pockets + fewer slaves to make products to sell to consumers to line their pockets = a reduced standard of living for the 'upper echelon' in my mind. It's illogical and makes no sense to me.

The tea party...

I admit though it was a great republican rally, and something the party needed to generate some unity. However, I look at it the same way that Bush/Cheney looks at any rally of anti-war protesters.... "yeah and?"

See, this is where we get back to disagreeing again.

There are apparently several holdouts who still refuse to see the facts of the matter, that it wasn't a 'republican' thing. They're just 'whistling past the graveyard'. I'm not a republican, and I was all for it. There were lots of folks there from all sides of the political spectrum.

Until the detractors recognize that fact, their arguments are doomed to failure, because they refuse to acknowledge a significant portion of the protestors.

And that's just alienating them.

Be that as it may, I'm not going to get into a protracted wrestling match with you about it. I once again know what I saw, and it's evident that either you don't, or didn't bother to look. For the record, the anti-war protestors weren't just 'liberals', either. To their credit, the probably got this omni-partisan ball rolling. 'Bi-Partisan' is a misnomer. It ignores an entire growing demographic.

You know, today I spent an hour and a half talking with another old soldier, though separated by years of service and type of combat I realized how much we were alike; same dismissal of the insignificant, same attention to matters of substance and same lack of patience for BS. Though perhaps separated by years, wars and distance we were brothers. We had kept the faith and left none of our brothers behind.

It occurred to me at the finish of our conversation that THAT was the REASON we will win the coming conflict, as throughout this nation there are thousands upon thousands of brothers and sisters just like us; men and women who have been there done that and got the tee shirt. Men and women that have learned that freedom is not free, that the blood that waters the ground of any one of a thousand past battle fields comes at the cost of a friend, brother, sister, husband or wife; that somewhere past, present or future a husband, father, mother, wife or child came home in a flag draped casket because they poured their blood out in sacrifice that we might be free.

It occurred to me that those men and women sons and daughters of whatever armed service will never stand idle while all that they fought to preserve is cast aside and trampled on by the very ones sworn to defend and protect it. That though they may be old, perhaps injured, out of shape and practice, their old honor and duty will cause them to arise, cause them to stand and defend that which they swore to defend. Duty, Honor and Country burnt into the soul by the furnace of hot metal and death is never forgotten; we will keep the faith, we will keep our oaths, and we will arise once more.


[edit on 6/3/2009 by SGTChas]

Originally posted by miragezero
Not surprisingly there has been a rise of crime. So who cleans up the mess for a *free* people? Government.

You are dead wrong. A *free* people cleans up their own mess. And I believe that will happen sooner rather than later.

Centralized authority as we have is more efficient simply put.

Again, you are dead wrong. Centralization isolates the government from the people it allegedly 'serves'. It's good for CONTROL, but no so good for responsiveness. Centralization DOES, however, make it easier for a free people to clean up the mess. I bet you find that out soon enough.

I'm not saying everything is perfect, but you guys are going overboard on your theories... there have been bad people in our government and it has done bad things, but you would have this with ANY gov't with no recourse in most.

Are you insinuating that the people of the US have recourse NOW? How so? when was the last time YOUR congressman acted according to your will?

How's that multi-trillion dollar debt from the bailouts the people were against gonna work out for ya?



[edit on 2009/6/3 by nenothtu]

reply to post by nenothtu

The whole 'NWO depopulation' scheme never made any sense to me. Fewer consumers to line their pockets + fewer slaves to make products to sell to consumers to line their pockets = a reduced standard of living for the 'upper echelon' in my mind. It's illogical and makes no sense to me.

Actually quiet easy to understand once you are in the mindset of the elites. Consider, having captured and controlled all methods of wealth production and the control of all national governments having established your all most ‘god’ like system of privilege, what would be left to satisfy such a one’s craving for power? The ultimate head-trip of establishing the final and most perfect caste system of controlled, culled and subservient class of workers that’s only reason for survival was as a support system for the elite.

At perfectly controlled numbers and genetically reengineered for the traits most desirable for the needs of the elite; the ultimate human cattle to use for whatever purpose or desire. Total god like power and control.

Originally posted by cbianchi513

Originally posted by HunkaHunka
Yep... it's the effect of moving from a passive 2-d world to an interactive 3-d world.

AKA Mindfulness.

It does wonders for the mind.... Primarily it removes irrational fears as well...

Did you actually read and comprehend the intent of the post?

Did you actually realize you sound like a schmuck questioning whether or not I read and understood something?

Of course not... In true progressive fashion,

Come again? Fashion is something I definitely do not have...

you have twisted the meaning to suit your own agenda.

Oh you mean human fashion... twisting things just like you are... you see you as a human can't even think of something without placing bias upon it...

You've continued to troll and twist the words of patriots with your statist venom spouting cohorts.

What the hell are you talking about? Are you off your meds? Sounds like it to me...

I'd ignore you, but I find it is very useful to study my enemies carefully.

I have no enemies.... sorry you do...

I'd "foe" you, but I lack the required respect for your opinion.

HAHAHA... I think you actually know that you sound like an ass...



Now say something sarcastic about what I'm saying now.... c"mon I know you want to.

One thing I noticed about progressives... They are usually egotistical to a fault...



Not so smart after all, huh?

Snarky? Yes.

Smart? Not so much.

Wow... so you accurartely described your own post... egotistical... snarky, and well lacking in any real intelligence.

I get it though I really do... from talking in this NWO forum I have found that the only enemy is rational thought.

And the only way you can combat rational thought is by attempting to project some sort of elitism on those who attempt to utilize rational thought and supporting statements in their posts. I have witnessed you and a couple others throwing this boll back and forth like a bunch of trolls yourself...

You have single handedly proven that you don't have the ability to engage in any discussion with a level of maturity above throwing feces.

I can't tell you how glad I am not to be you...



Ok now say something about the emoticons I used to describe my sentiment...

I know you want to...




Now let's go back to what I said... I simply agreed with the poster that turning off the TV is indeed a way to have a deeper understanding of your world...

And you decide to lash out at me with amoebic like intelligence and the social etiquette of a Tasmanian devil...

I know I went off the rails on this post...

Ahhh it felt good...


Let the flames begin... because I DID ignore you... lol



[edit on 3-6-2009 by HunkaHunka]

reply to post by SGTChas


i.e. the batteries to power the robots while the batteries live an illusion.

The Matrix anyone?

Originally posted by HunkaHunka
Let the flames begin... because I DID ignore you... lol

What a shame. You won't be able to read the reply that you cajoled me for...

I must admit, I've actually formed my own progressive dogma filtration system, kind of like a mental "ignore" for vitriol and rhetoric.

I do beg to question on your deaf ears though... Who's post had more stars? To me, it would indicate that my post was adequately relevant, as well as better recieved. Would taking that indication as fact not be logic in action? Oh, I'm sure any progressive lurkers would surely provide you with "posthumous" awards.... or provide me with "reasons" why I'm barbaric and moronic.

See, I'm that guy that would gladly eat your firstborn if you've convinced me your gene pool should end now. Does that make me a monster? Nope. I'm just who was put here to do what I'm doing.

But now I may rest easier that you have gone from me in peace.

May your chains set lightly upon you.

EDIT: spelling and grammar

[edit on 3/6/09 by cbianchi513]

Originally posted by HunkaHunka
. . . You have single handedly proven that you don't have the ability to engage in any discussion with a level of maturity above throwing feces. . . .

What discussion? You have yet to put up any sort of defense to your position? The excrement is soon to be hitting the revolving blades . . . pieces are coming together, and you are still in denial.

reply to post by dooper


Whos idea was it to hold units in Kuwait with the fake beach landing prep? The nervousness this caused resulted in the big and sudden push south when Marine elements moved north. The Iraqis saw that there would be no major beach landing, saw the fake, and took of south to meet the Marines thinking this was the reason for the fake sea landing cover. What they didn't know was that the Marine movement was yet a second fain to get the Iraqis to move south in mass exposing their forces and getting them to disperse in a long column thus giving up an unguarded flank.

The brilliance here was the calculation that they would fall for the second move simply on the merit of the first and that the ensuing flanking by the army and the rush along the coast north by the Marines would create panic. The Iraqis realizing they were tricked rushed into battle after another fake incursion to be hit by the third and full force. The key? Getting them to move from a defensive posture to an offensive. Great just great.