Paul ~ Inventing a new saviour

It says gods word, nothing about a book - which is written by men who claim to have heard it for themselves. Your entire basis for this is that people call the bible god's word. That despite there being a personal relationship with god available, only a select few scribes are actually able to hear them. This again slaps in the face of what Jesus told people.

And when you actually do hear god's word, then it is like a food you eat. But yet, the bible is not words we hear inside ourselves from the kingdom of god is it? Because it is not god's word, it's god's word as another person heard it.

Matthew 7

28And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:

29For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

reply to post by badmedia

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Your welcome.



Nor do I think it's a coincidence. We are, I believe, born into the culture that best suits our development and temperament.

I have found that the bible is useful in keeping us in alignment with our real education by opening up new expressions of it, but also builds on that real education at times.

[edit on 6-1-2009 by L.I.B.]

I think each culture will get their own messanger, or those who will speak truth on this level. I think if I lived in the middle east, I would probably be speaking from another religion, but based on the same understandings. Just different ways of expressing it. This is what I think the holy spirit speaking in different tongues is about. I don't think it means people will speak up like some churches do. I think it means the holy spirit is able to speak to people of all cultures and religions in their native tongue and understanding.

But because of my culture, obviously Jesus and the bible is the one that best fits me. And so it is the one that I am most comfortable with. And in many ways, the bible and the words of Jesus did very much act as a comforter to me, beyond the education I learned. Because at first it was - omg, nobody knows this truth! WHY? And then I start seeing it repeated in the words of Jesus, and that was amazing, but also kind of a "whew", I'm not alone.

I can't say the bible has really taught me much, but it does help me seem a bit less crazy, and helps me better explain things to people who are generally actually good and caring people, who actually do want to do the right things and seek truth. For example, when I say "I am god and I am arguing with myself", people generally took that negatively or as if I was crazy etc. They didn't realize I was saying that god was also inside them as well. But if I repeat John 14:20 instead, then it says the same thing and comes across a bit better.


[edit on 6-1-2009 by badmedia]

so other people claiming to be inspired by god = bad
however you claiming to be inspired by god = good.

and the prove you have to back it up?



no, the basis for my statement and my belief that the bible is god´s word has nothing to do with what other´s say.

the fact is, if the bible wasnt inspired and protected by god, then it wouldnt look like it does today. it wouldnt have survived this long. it wouldnt contain very specific prophecies that have very specific fulfillments.

in my personal experience, the more i deeper i dig into the bible, the more proof i see of divine inspiration.

again this is my personal experience. i cant pluck the experience from my head and give it to you anymore than you can do with me.

im not being confrontational with you, im simply saying that i dont believe what you say.

you have nothing to prove that its the holy spirit talking to you. like i said earlier in this post, what makes your claim anymore valid than those of the apostles?

has it occurred to you maybe god considered this little conundrum? obviously there are going to be plenty of people claiming to talk to god. if god put his saying down in writing, then one can critique it. examine it. seek proof. without the bible as a standard, all you have is claims. (unless of course god gave you powers, but unless you can cure me, i doubt you do)

What hoops would you like me to jump through? How would you like to test me? Those with ears and understanding can see for themselves if I speak and know of truth or not. I don't think there is really anything I could do that would actually prove anything to you. Plus, it's not like I want you to believe me. I certainly don't want you to follow me, or accept me as an authority. These are things you will have to find out on your own, and in your own way what is true or not, by having your own personal relationship with god.

So, if you believe me or accept me as an authority, then you will in turn make me no better than those who accept the other people as authority. I'm not trying to be your authority, I am trying to show you how to be your own authority.

To accept that I, or anyone else has been inspired by god = bad. To see for yourself and be inspired by god's word for yourself = good. I am just saying that it is truly possible to have, and you should settle for nothing less.

This is why Jesus tells the disciples not to make leaders of themselves and such(except for Paul apparently).



And yet, Jesus says this isn't his kingdom. The ruler of this world is Satan, always has been. People conspired against Jesus for what he taught. How does this church and book get so far in this world before the return of christ? Can you not see how the churches and things have used evil ways to promote and get this book to where it is today? As I said before, I don't rule out that there is a purpose or reason for this on the grand scale, but I am the student and I know what fruits did these things.



As it contains the words of Jesus, I do agree it is divinely inspired at least in part. However, it is still not the word of god, is it a written account from those who heard the word of god. It is not what that quote is talking about. Of which, even though it talks of a personal relationship with god, and has been in "power" many times in the past 2000 years, no new accounts have been allowed.



Every person will think they are right. If they thought we were wrong, we would change our minds. This is why discussion is encouraged by Jesus, because it brings us understanding, and those understandings bring us closer. Just as you can't pluck your experience into my head, I can't pluck my experience from mine. But we can discuss things and take in from other experiences for a better view.



Nothing, and that is the point. You just said it yourself, what makes their claims more valid than mine? Because the world gave it to you as such? And yet, Jesus does not give as the world does. For this reason, you must see for yourself. Sure, take in the other experience and understand it, but you still need your own experience - everyone should have their own vision.



Yes it did occur to me. And because of this I found that I could not trust anything. And because I could not trust anything, I began to search and seek for myself. And because of that, I found out what is true and what I could trust. It was not until I outright rejected the entire world, and seen it for the lie that it was that I seen god and found truth. Did it occur to you that maybe the bible is just other peoples claims?

And yes, I do have "powers". I can cure blindness(ignorance), and have done so for many years. Although, pretty rare that it happens instantly - I plant seeds of truth, and sometimes it takes a little while for them to grow. Just add water(reality) and over time, the truth grows and becomes apparent. Although, to give credit where credit is do, mostly I am just able to present and get people to ask questions(seek), and god does the rest. I always tell people - time will prove me right, and it always does.

Seek beyond that which is handed to you(bible), and you will see beyond that which is handed to you(god/truth). At which point, then you can see why the bible speaks truth, and then you can hear the word of god in it - as you have the holy spirit then.

Ever seen the movie White Men can't jump? There is a scene where they talk about listening to Jimi, and actually hearing Jimi. What most people do with the bible is they listen to it, very few actually hear it.

reply to post by badmedia

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Was curious how you viewed Satan. I think just like christ is the essence of our discovery, satan is the essence of what keeps us from seeing the truth.

Make sense? The Jewish people did not view satan as a seperate entity. It was representative of man's inclination to the physical world to the point where they let go of *reality*.

The thing I see in what people talk about the anti-christ(I guess Satan) is that he understands he is god, a son of god and so on. But that he wants to be god, in that he wants to be all of god, rather than just his part of god. It would be like when I realized God was inside me, and was my soul and so on, if I were to say - I am this - and you are not. I would be putting myself above others and so on. And if I turn my back on you, or anyone else, then because god is also within them, then I am also turning my back on god.

It would be like John 14:20, "At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you", but Satan would more say: "At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, but the father and I are not in you.".

But that is just based on what we are told. I really have no idea what is true about different "characters" or not. I can only look at the actions done and decide based on that.

Evil on the other hand, is no doubt a result of ignorance for the most part. Or that evil gets it's power based on ignorance. And so the way to fight evil is with truth and enlightenment IMO. Which is what Jesus did in his example. Refused to become the evil at all costs, knew there was nothing for him to fear and so on.

When you look at the pharisees, they spoke the literal old testament - "You tell is so well", but you don't understand it Jesus would say. And Jesus called these people the children of Satan. Even though they were in the temples, carried the bible up high and so on. What they generally failed to realize, and what made them hypocrites was that they didn't see when they were breaking them, and so in persecution of others they broke the commandments themselves. If you kill or stone a man to death because they have sinned, then you yourself have now just sinned as well and broken the thou shall not kill commandment. Usually, people make exceptions to commandments under somekind of "justification".

On a higher level, I think Satan has a purpose. When we take from the tree of knowledge to learn good and evil, we put ourselves into the world of evil so that we can learn the difference and gain understanding. Without it, we can't understand good, no more than we can understand hot without cold. Nothing makes you understand a white dot more than a black background. But for me, I am the student and so I point out the white dot, and distinguish which is which. Even though they are both on the same piece of paper.

Now, what I am about to share with you Badmedia is by no means to be considered as a "vision"... I do not claim as much. I had a dream at one point in which we were put to a test at the "end"... (whether our personal end or the world's was unclear to me). This test was to determine within each person whether they were or were not anti christ. For each person, there was given something in the physical world that appealed to them personally (whether they were worshiping man, idol, anything in heaven and in earth) and based on their acceptance or non acceptance it was determined if their spirit was christ or anti christ.

Again, this was not something I claim to be a prophecy... the most I would claim is that it was a personal realization. This is how I personally view christ vs. anti christ. If christ is agreed to be a realization of G.d as the Life Force (again, just identifying .... not labeling.... Please! note the difference), then wouldn't it stand to reason that anti christ is something like a lack of realization and not an actual person

Edited to add: in this sense... the New Testament in the christian bible could be somewhat of a parable in its entirety. Meaning, there is the message of Christ and then there is the deception of Paul who claimed Jesus was G.d in human form and we would all one day bow to this man.



[edit on 6-1-2009 by justamomma]

{It says gods word, nothing about a book - which is written by men who claim to have heard it for themselves. Your entire basis for this is that people call the bible god's word}

And you are a man and you claim to have heard from God ..how are you and them any different .?Why should you be believed and not them ?


{Those with ears and understanding can see for themselves if I speak and know of truth or not}

The same thing goes for the WORD OF GOD of which men who were moved by the spirit and actually witnessed what Christ did and WROTE it down .........

[edit on 6-1-2009 by Simplynoone]

And those are also the same words I saw truth in. Those are the words that I know speaks truth in ways that nobody else ever expressed to me externally. But I didn't know they were that until I knew what the truth was for myself, and I certainly didn't understand it.

Hello simplynoone... glad you contributed! Could you clarify who you are posting to? I am assuming it is to my op, but will wait until you can let us know for sure.

[edit on 6-1-2009 by justamomma]

It doesn't seem out of place. If you hold on to this world, then you can't take it with you. That goes along with what I said about the physical church and physical stuff isn't in heaven, but wisdom is. And that is why the true church is built with wisdom, and is in both places at the same time(the wisdom is held within us, as is the kingdom of god).

So if you hold onto the physical items, then you have to kind of choose between the 2.

In any case it would be a powergrab if Paul conspired to go against Jesus or even Jesus against Paul. An interesting theory because if Paul was to gain credibilty than Jesus would lose credibility, thus the powergrab.

And with this, you have grabbed entirely onto the point I was trying to make! EXACTLY what I had in mind

Remember, Paul (Saul) was a persecutor of those who were being enlightened by Jesus' message and no doubt, the enlightened were growing despite the persecution..... this would mean loss for the Romans if the message spread to those who were not Jewish. Paul (saul) was part of the elite Jewish circle (the ones to help execute Jesus) and they were known to be in cohorts with the upper elite of the Roman empire..... the conspiracy seems obvious to me.



[edit on 6-1-2009 by justamomma]

reply to post by justamomma

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I totally agree with you. It would totally describe the conflict between the catholic and christian church or even Christianity and Islam for that matter.

[edit on 6-1-2009 by 12.21.12]

Well, yes and no. The Christian church as we know it still is under the grasp of Paul in that they worship a man as G.d. G.d is not a man. We don't have words to explain the wholeness of G.d. He is life (identifying, not labeling) and thus, to elevate and worship any one aspect of life over another puts us under bonds and keeps us from realizing what is inside all of us. There should be no struggle for power in the truly enlightened. The deceivers are those who (intentionally or unintentionally) try to get others to bow their head to ANYTHING that is in the heavens or in the earth. G.d is here, all around us... He is the breath that gave us life and therefore, we are all a part of Him.

If this were truly accepted, then one man could not control another and the greedy LOVE to control. Thus, the true message must be silenced and the truth must be made to appear as a lie. So, any church that tries to teach you to worship a man (or anything else) or you will be cast into hell doesn't have the light (the truth) of G.d in them.

[edit on 6-1-2009 by justamomma]

reply to post by justamomma

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When you think about its like the resentment swings full circle. It's like a huge powergrab. Look at the situation we have today. We have Christians against muslims, muslims against jew, jews against catholics and catholics against christians. The whole world is a stage.

reply to post by justamomma

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My sentiments exactly.

absolutely! Fortunately, I am starting to feel rather positive. If you read through this thread alone, you will see muslim, christian, non professed, and of course.. me, the Jewish all agreeing that it is time to realize that we are giving different expression of ourselves to ONE creator... not to a man, not to a race, not to a system... expression is different than worshiping an idol.

Anyway, a great light that shines out of the holocaust and she said it the best ... "despite everything, I believe that people are really good at heart." - Anne Frank..

*that* is the manifestation of G.d's hope for His creation. I do see the enlightment is starting to catch hold again slowly, but increasingly it grows.



[edit on 6-1-2009 by justamomma]

reply to post by justamomma

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Yes I agree. All sides are wrong. The best way to not let the powers that be manipulate us, is not to take part in it.