So, did Paul help to invent a new savior? And what would be the reason? I say yes to the first and the reason? Well, that will be up to individual interpretations I suppose.

Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

This directly contradicts what Ezekiel said:
Ezek 36:26-28 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes(laws), and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

Now, I am sure the argument will be that “the end of the law” means that he is the “sum” of the law, as I have heard, but yet Jesus (as we are told of him in the Bible) shows that this in not what is meant. Remember, Deut 26:16 says “This day the LORD thy God hath commanded thee to do these statutes and judgments: thou shalt therefore keep and do them with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.”

Exodus 31: 13-14, 16 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you. Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

Leviticus 19: 30 Ye shall keep my sabbaths, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the LORD. (note… the LORD *is* G-d).

OVER and OVER G-d continues to reinforce HOW important it is for Israel to REMEMBER this Holy day…… it was a day set aside as a sign between Israel and G-d. And yet:
After Jesus healed the man on the Sabbath, here is what he says…
John 5: 15 The man departed, and told the Jews that it was Jesus, which had made him whole. 16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day. 17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

This is in DIRECT contradiction to what G-d laid out for Israel. How cruel is that to lay out that Israel must be observant of the Sabbath day over and over, (punishable BY death for non compliance), turn around and send a man who not only thumbs his nose at this ordinance but also says that now the Father is thumbing his nose at it (though G-d had NOT said that he had changed His mind on this command) and expect all to believe this man who is contradicting what they had been told or they would be eternally damned! It makes NO sense and it is a farce. If it is NOT a farce, then there is REASON to be afraid because there is a game being played with man. It also goes to show you that Paul really MEANT “Christ is the end of the law for righteousness.”

Now, we see that Paul will elevate the status of a man that doesn’t keep the commandments of G-d; let’s look at how he viewed those who DID keep the commands of G-d.
Rom 10:1-2 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
(side note: Prov 2:6 says For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding. And Psa 119:66 says Teach me good judgment and knowledge: for I have believed thy commandments. Hmmm)

Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Paul is blatantly trying to discredit those who follow the law, yet G-d gave His laws SO THAT righteousness COULD be established.

Deut 6:25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.
Psa 119:40 Behold, I have longed after thy precepts(laws): quicken(preserve) me in thy righteousness.

And then, of course, as I have mentioned:
Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

And that is the doctrinal lie: Christ is the end of the law for righteousness. Yet the Law has already been declared as perfect, FOREVER (no mentioning that there will be an end) and it can convert the soul (no mention of Jesus or a man converting the soul).

Psa 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

Psa 119:152,160 Concerning thy testimonies(statutes), I have known of old that thou hast founded them for ever.
Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments(laws) endureth for ever(are eternal).

So, to continue on,
Rom 10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

He only PARTIALLY quotes Moses. Here is the full context of Moses’ words: Lev 18:4-5 Ye shall do my judgments, and keep mine ordinances, to walk therein: I am the LORD your God. Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the LORD.
Of course, quoting all of that would not have been convenient for Paul and his trying to invent a new savior and therefore had to eliminate that Moses was speaking the Words of G-d.

Rom 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above)

And here we see he is trying to invent a new righteousness, aka Jesus. But, yet again, he only partially quotes Deuteronomy. In the full context, we can see that it is NOT speaking of Jesus or ANY man, but is rather speaking of the commands given by G-d.
Deut 30:12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? ( IT… not HIM)

Rom 10:7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) Refer to Leviticus 18: 4-5 (not Paul’s version)

Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh(near) thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

Paul distorts Deut 30 even more this time as he attempts to fit Jesus into the place of the Law. Paul dishonestly half quotes Deut 30:14 and omits Deut 30:9-11 as well. Deut 30:10-11 exposes Paul for who he is (a con artist) and thus, there is no wonder, that he leaves that part out.

First, Deut 30:14 actually states:
Deut 30:14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it. Paul's altered quote of Deut 30:14: the word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth and in thy heart

That “thou mayest do it” of course is contradictory to what Paul is trying to make you believe Deut. 30 is speaking of. The part he left out is instruction to do the law.

Replacing the law with faith in Jesus is his agenda and Paul has no trouble misapplying and taking out of context any OT verse that suits his needs. The fuller context of Deut 30 shows us why Paul couldn't quote the verses honestly.
Deut 30: 9-11 declares: And the LORD thy God will make thee plenteous in every work of thine hand, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy land, for good: for the LORD will again rejoice over thee for good, as he rejoiced over thy fathers: If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul. For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off(not too difficult to obey).

Seeing the bigger picture here yet?

Yes paul did indeed i think ruin what was needed to be taught.... he turned everything into idol worship.... worship jesus... worship the chruch...

he ruined it

of course BOTH the law and this idol worship is ignorant and contains no undersatnding.

dont eat pork.... why? because i said so...

GOD is not illogical.. GOD is logic

[edit on 2-1-2009 by Wertdagf]

[edit on 2-1-2009 by Wertdagf]

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

It is this dangerous confession that Jesus is the Lord that Paul wants us to believe Deut 30: 14 is speaking about.

Isaiah 45: 21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Paul attempts to undermine G-d’s words. Wow, that takes a lot of guts to give G-d’s glory away to another man… or maybe not so much guts as foolishness.

Isa 43:11
I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

Hosea 13:4 Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.

Paul, of course, thinks G-d is wrong and that JESUS, a man, is our savior and it is by him that we are saved.

Rom 10:10-11 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Another misquote, this time from Isaiah 28: 16 which states, Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.

Now, where in this passage is Jesus mentioned? It is speaking of trusting G-d’s word and Him… not a man/god.

Rom 10:12-13 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Another misquote: Joel 2:32 states: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

And in verse 27, Paul’s lie is exposed…. Jesus is not Lord.

Joel 2:27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.

All throughout Paul’s writings we see this same kind of mutilation to the original passages.

Philippians 2:9-11 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

G-d’s people are supposed to worship HIM (NOT a man)!!

Isa 45:22-23 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Don’t see a man/god (Jesus) being mentioned in the following either. Isa 45:21...and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. OR here: Isa 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

And, as I have stated elsewhere, then Paul assumes authority over those who don’t believe in the savior he has invented by threatening them:

Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

He has invented a new salvation plan and a new savior that distorts and contradicts the TRUE Savior and the TRUE Saviour has a plan that had been laid out quite clearly already.

Originally posted by Wertdagf
Yes paul did indeed i think ruin what was needed to be taught.... he turned everything into idol worship.... worship jesus... worship the chruch...

he ruined it

I remember thinking it... sensing it. I was very glad to see that my gut instincts could be trusted. There is only ONE G.d and He is not Jesus; nor is Jesus meant to be the light to the world and he was NEVER meant to be the messiah to the world. The light to the world happens to be the Jewish people (which I can also show through Scripture).

The light of the world is not a people... it is the desire for logic and udnerstanding... the pure drive for truth and love.

If you label a people as the light of te world that is ignorant... because people become confused and fail....

Now if a people contained those principals.... which the jews do not... nor does ANY other religion... then you would indeed have a light unto the world.

Light reveals and explains.. not hides and confuses.

I can't help but wonder if Paul himself would have been overhwhelmed by how much of history has been shaped around his writings, and I further wonder if that was intentional.

Maybe to confuse the world was the fastest way to reveal the truth. Lies reveal truths in time... throught causality/GOD. One can see his errors and flaws through time and experiance.

Originally posted by Wertdagf
Maybe to confuse the world was the fastest way to reveal the truth. Lies reveal truths in time... throught causality/GOD. One can see his errors and flaws through time and experiance.

I am not going to argue this for as I said, it is up to the seeker to decide. I would have to say that it was being raised christian and yet not seeing the power of G.d through christianity that sent me on my journey to find G.d. I have been amazed at the way He has proved Himself to me once I abandoned the worship of idols (jesus, the cross, etc) in order to find Him.

My personal view on Paul's manipulation involves many aspects.
One major aspect is that Rome, seeking power at the time, saw the power of Jesus' words (which WERE meant for the Jewish ppl, obviously, and not for gentiles~ for those who aren't aware of Jesus' apathy toward the gentiles, ask and I will show you) and used paganism and gentile conversion to regain control and ultimately discredit what Jesus most likely could have been doing for the Jewish people.

Originally posted by asmeone2
I can't help but wonder if Paul himself would have been overhwhelmed by how much of history has been shaped around his writings, and I further wonder if that was intentional.

Very likely because as I have pointed out, he tried to discredit those who were keeping the laws of G.d and deceive those who did not understand the Jews' knowledge of G.d... thus, the reason for going to the gentiles and the explanation of the discord that was evident btw him and the Jews.

[edit on 2-1-2009 by justamomma]

What also could have happened is he was essentially the televangelist of the day, and grabbed onto Jesus's message and dissemenated a watered-down version that was quite sellable, at the expense of the true message

I am not going to argue this for as I said, it is up to the seeker to decide. I would have to say that it was being raised christian and yet not seeing the power of G.d through christianity that sent me on my journey to find G.d. I have been amazed at the way He has proved Himself to me once I abandoned the worship of idols (jesus, the cross, etc) in order to find Him.

its sad that you cannot open your mind to this. What power was revealed to you that is unexplainable.... or have you mearly closed yourself inside another hole....

and yes i know that causality/GOD will teach you your flaws if you only pay attention to the results of your actions. You have an eternity to understand... hell is not understanding Causality/GOD becasue you will make the same mistakes and never learn.

its the smoke and fire of toment that rises for ever and ever.

[edit on 2-1-2009 by Wertdagf]

[edit on 2-1-2009 by Wertdagf]

Originally posted by Wertdagf
The light of the world is not a people... it is the desire for logic and udnerstanding... the pure drive for truth and love.

If you label a people as the light of te world that is ignorant... because people become confused and fail....

Now if a people contained those principals.... which the jews do not... nor does ANY other religion... then you would indeed have a light unto the world.

Light reveals and explains.. not hides and confuses.

Would there be any point in explaining what I meant by this? If you do not hold to any part of the Bible, then yes, the light of G.d must first come to you through experience and then knowledge via the experiences and then light via the knowledge. Once you see that light, you recognize the people in which the history shines bright with that light.

Interesting. I have often wondered this myself.

For some reason it does not seem rite to pray to Jesus but to God himself.
It has been a war inside me trying to figure what is correct.
Jesus never claimed to be the son of God. He just said I am what you say I am.
The bible says we are all sons of God.

Originally posted by Wertdagf What was it that was revealed to you.... that was so extrodinary that you switched religions... did you pray to a differnt name? maybe use some holy water blessed by some other practitioner? Did you pray to ALLAH and become rich?

no. I understand your questioning though now. I actually had abandoned the whole notion of G.d actually before I gained the correct perspectives. What proved His existence to me would not be the same that would be needed to prove His existence to you.

I am not trying to prove His existence to you. That is not my place. I trust that He could do it better than I could. When you are ready, then it will happen. If it does not, I do not believe that you will burn for all of eternity.

[edit on 2-1-2009 by justamomma]

That is the fundamental structure of the universe.... the design which creates our reality. The flow of infinitys and the result of causality.

THIS IS GOD... it is logic, it is reason, it is udnerstanding... and in that understanding love and forgiveness.

Originally posted by Wertdagf
That is the fundamental structure of the universe.... the design which creates our reality. The flow of infinitys and the result of causality.

THIS IS GOD... it is logic, it is reason, it is udnerstanding... and in that understanding love and forgiveness.

I am not sure that I have disagreed with this necessarily. If you are thinking more on the lines of New Age thinking, then yes... I have issues. There is no doubt that I am not G-d, though I definately am a part of Him.