Paul ~ Inventing a new saviour

reply to post by Simplynoone


I agree and disagree.... the Hebrew Scriptures were to teach the Jewish people about the difference in man from beast. Rational choices from instinctual. You CAN be enlightened to this without the Tanakh. But the Hebrew Scriptures lead the way to understanding the New Testament and discerning the truths from the lies...

I ALWAYS encourage others to understand the Hebrew Scriptures in the eyes of the Jewish people when they are misunderstanding the New Testament. However, from what I have gathered, badmedia was enlightened to common sense... that is really all this is. Common sense. There is G.d, but G.d is Life. He is seperate from us, but since He is also within us (if you are alive, then you have Life), thus it would stand to reason that He could enlighten someone who already had common sense to the truth apart from the Scriptures.

Thus far, everything Badmedia has posted has been in line with both the Law and the testimony. But i will point out... this is a rare thing

reply to post by The Matrix Traveller



I know it was an echo.... to a degree. I just wanted to clarify that enlightenment does not negate common sense.


I do not identify myself as gnostic because like christianity, much has been misconstrued. WE ARE NOT G.D. Life and enlightenment (understanding) come FROM G.d.

Also, some of the gnostics were into things that I find is NOT common sense... One can think they are enlightened and still be off the mark of true enlightenment.

I prefer the Jewish way, ALTHOUGH this does not mean that every Jewish person and way of Judaism is right. If it does not comply with Isaiah 8:20, then it is not true enlightenment. This is why I have spent so much time searching the Scriptures and studying. I do not want enlightenment for its sake alone.

I want to help others see the common sense of what G.d was doing with Israel so they too can escape the bonds of "Egypt."

reply to post by justamomma


Philip 2:10-11
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

You left some of it out .....in CONTEXT >..
Phl 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Phl 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Phl 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Phl 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

Phl 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth;

Phl 2:11 And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.



Psa 110:1 [[A Psalm of David.]] The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Mat 22:44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?


Psa 8:1 [[To the chief Musician upon Gittith, A Psalm of David.]] O LORD our Lord, how excellent [is] thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens.
Mar 16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Act 2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead
Eph 1:21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
Eph 1:22 And hath put all [things] under his feet, and gave him [to be] the head over all [things] to the church,


Hbr 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

1Pe 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.


Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, [be] unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Originally posted by badmedia
Jesus taught people they were the authority, Paul taught people that they must submit to authority(Romans - the name of the book and those who are the authority). Paul teaches people they must believe and accept Jesus, Jesus says that those who truly believe will do what he says(not what Paul says). Jesus tells them not to make leaders of themselves, Paul does exactly this.

I hope you don't mind if I clarify that first point a bit badmedia... and of course, if you disagree, then just say so.

Jesus did teach people they were the authority, but here is where the letter of the law comes in. We do not have the authority to abuse ANY part of Creation. ALL of it belongs to the Creator and therefore, we must seperate ourselves from acting purely off of selfish desires. That is something the beasts do... MAN has been given a very special gift that he did not give the beasts.. it is called a rational thinking. A mechanism we can use to make rational choices based on "thinking" rather than instinct (desire).


The physical world is merely a representative of the spiritual world. Until we can master what's in the physical and understand HOW to master it without feeling like we are slaves, we will never be given a taste of the spiritual. When self responsibility becomes our nature, we then fulfill our purpose... aka, we fulfill the law in its entirety.

edited to add: arrrggh had to change brain to rational thinking.

[edit on 7-1-2009 by justamomma]

reply to post by Simplynoone


Yes... but he (Paul) places the glory of G.d on one man thus creating an image to be worshiped. So, even in that context, the message is deceiving. Paul was a master at deceiving those who did not understand the Hebrew Scriptures in their context as they were given to the Jewish people. He used this and took it to the Gentiles who could be fooled because they did not understand the TRUE context of the Scriptures.. know why? Because it was not given to them. When Paul took it in his own hands, seperate from the authority of G.d, to give it to the Gentiles, they, not being the chosen people in which the word of G.d would be manifested, butchered the word of G.d.

Originally posted by badmedia

Originally posted by L.I.B.
Yes, but what I pointed out to you was from the old testament. Numbers 12:6.

Jesus also manifests, in the flesh, to people.

I'll have to get to the rest of your post later... I'm trying to beat a deadline right now. Perhaps around 8-9pm central time? I hope anyway.

oh how I wish I wouldn't keep messing up the html requiring edits!

I coulda swore what you pointed out to me was in Acts. Numbers is old testament. What you pointed out to me was Jesus saying this is how he would appear, and so it couldn't have been from the old testament.

As far as I can tell, the Numbers quotes is where it says there is an exception for moses, but this is because moses is faithful. Obviously at the time Paul was not.

Numbers 12:6 And he said, "Hear my words: If there is a prophet among you, I the LORD make myself known to him in a vision; I speak with him in a dream.

7 Not so with my servant Moses.He is faithful in all my house.

8 With him I speak mouth to mouth, clearly, and not in riddles, and he beholds the form of the LORD. Why then were you not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?"

Now, this is actually closer to what I experienced. As it was the father, not Jesus that I seen. I can't exactly say 7 and 8 is what I experienced, because it wasn't physical - but what I saw in my vision was as if it was physical, and I did see a form. It was like a pure light being, no distinguishing features, just the form itself. The room I was in was a perfect white, had no beginning or end and the form was like it was filled with sun, a golden light. So I did see a form.

But my hair didn't turn white or any of that other stuff, and I don't remember any accounts of that also happening to Paul. So I am more apt to call it a vision. Didn't know that would make me a prophet though, that is somewhat interesting. Thought everyone would get the same upon getting the holy spirit.[edit on 7-1-2009 by badmedia]

See!! He speaks to the Law and the Testimony!

What this passage is saying is that to the Jewish people, God's chosen people (represented in Moses.... because *surprise surprise* there was no MOSES on a mount given tablets of stone... I know.. .shocking!) would be the ones to receive the word of G.d clearly. The testimony of Isaiah and other prophets makes this clear.

The visions are the "pictures" that are being painted in the bible by the Jewish people, not actual dreams.

Badmedia, this is why I shared with you my findings awhile back. What you are receiving is more in line with 7 and 8 when the passage is understood correctly.

[edit on 7-1-2009 by justamomma]

reply to post by justamomma



There are NUMEROUS scriptures in the OT even that say the Lord was going to reach out to the Gentiles ...So Paul did exactly what he was supposed to do .
www.blueletterbible.org...


It was because of the Jews unbelief that they are blinded .....
He came to his own and his own RECIEVED HIM NOT ....
Jhn 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
Jhn 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Eph 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:


We are in the times of the Gentiles and soon it will be over and then he will deal with you and the Orthodox Jews ....and will hopefully draw them back to him if they will not HARDEN THEIR HEARTS and continue in their unbelief... .........
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
Hbr 3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
Hbr 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
Hbr 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

I am praying for you Justamomma ....

reply to post by Simplynoone


But what good does it do when the message that was given to the Gentiles was false?

Had Paul been patient, could not the Jewish people have been properly enlightened; thereby negating the false message going out to the gentiles?

Of course, Jesus was being rather prophetic spiritually when he said that he would divide the wheat from the tares.

Ultimately, I would agree that G.d's hand is at work. I have made my point clear and it is up to each and every person to decide for themselves whether what I have written is true or not. I really don't want to keep repeating the same thing again. If you want to buy into Paul's false idol, then it is your choice to live in a perceived, but false light.

I am not clear as to what you subscribe to and so that is not directed at you personally (please don't take it as such); but like I have said, concerning this particular arguement, I have made my stance clear. If you don't see it that way, it is fine with me. I am just trying to get it out there. I don't want to argue for arguements sake.

The main point of this thread is to say.... know the history and the mindset of what was written by WHOM it was written ~ in the Hebrew Scriptures because worshiping Jesus as G.d is not in accordance with the foundation that modern christianity claims to be based on.



[edit on 7-1-2009 by justamomma]

Originally posted by justamomma
I hope you don't mind if I clarify that first point a bit badmedia... and of course, if you disagree, then just say so.

Of course not, and if I did mind, it would be my problem not yours.

I do not see these things as "law". I can see how people could see them as laws, and I don't disagree with them being called laws. And they are things I think should be followed.

But I was never told - you MUST go do this, or do that. I was never told I needed to do anything ever. Nothing was ever forced on to me. Even when I tried to give away my will to god, because I thought he would know best, that in itself was really turned down. In replace of that, I was merely shown and given things that allowed me to see and do right/better things.

I do not see these things as law because I do not think God punishes people. I think these things we call law are just things that make sense and are the basis for a peacful and heavenly society. Where as when you honestly see the truth, they are just the way you kind of automatically act, or want to act towards other people as such. Because when you see the truth, then you understand why they are there. When you don't see the truth, it seems and feels as if God is just trying to control you. Before I seen the truth, that is how I saw the commandments - just a way of controlling people.

Where as the people themselves are the authority. You can choose not to live by them, but you won't get to heaven or a peaceful society that way. I see you reap what you sow as being a mirror, and in this way the universe and how we see it, is a mirror of ourselves. You are the authority over yourself, no others. Part of being the authority over yourself, and having freedom over yourself however is the responsibility for your actions. As such, you can not blame others for your own situation, it is of your own making - because you were the authority all along. Rather than point out the flaws in others and persecute them, you have to actually be the change you want to see. And when you are that change, then you will sow good things, and as a result you will reap good things.

So when you sow, you are sowing your path towards heaven or hell. But there is no punishment from God involved, you did it to yourself. How can one expect to live in a peaceful type of society if you are not yourself peaceful and such? How can one expect to live in a place of freedom, when they themselves do not allow freedom for others? So I don't see them as laws exactly, if god truly makes a "law", that law WILL be followed, there will be no choice in it. Just as creation itself follows those laws without choice. But you were given free will, and with that came good advice.

So when Jesus is talking about them being the authority, it is referring to you are the authority over yourself. It doesn't mean you should be president(or any other position of authority where you put yourself above others). Or a church leader etc. I see it as a way of - minding your own business. I think it is sad when 1 life isn't enough for others to control. A way of trying to externally fix something that is a problem with yourself. Often times, I find that the most vocal people against things are the ones who have temptations towards it, and they are vocal as a way of trying to hide/pretend it's not there. And they think the temptation for them is there because they see it externally, without realizing the temptation and desire comes from within. Those who aren't tempted by these things don't really see a problem with them so much.

I am surely not perfect. I struggle with things the same as anyone else. I struggle with gluttony. I could eat and eat. But I realize this is something I have to deal with in myself. The removal of excess food is not going to remove my desire. I am my own authority on it, I can decide how much food I eat and how much I don't. I am my own authority, I am responsible for it, not those who allow me to get excess food. Can't fix it by making certain foods unavailable etc. But this is how people try to "fix" problems like these, and it just doesn't work. And this is not my only vise.

When people try to fix things this way, they become the hypocrite. Because it didn't take their desire away, they will now just go further to fulfill that desire. Only now you've created a big market for it, because of supply and demand. So when you fix the desire within yourself, then you are being the change needed. And you are able to do that because you are the authority.

Before we can fix these things, we have to understand what is right and what is true. You can make a pretty nickel selling and pointing to others as being the problem, people will pay and kill for that. But not very many are willing to look inside and fix themselves. It can be a struggle, it is at times like carrying a huge load, but eventually you can overcome it.

And really, I think as long as you aren't persecuting others for their vices then that is all you really need to get into heaven. The rest will come in time. That would be loving they neighbor as thyself and loving god. And by loving them, that means letting them be as they are. If you love something, you will set it free. So do not impose on someone's free will is to love them, just as you wouldn't want someone to impose on your free will. And when you see the god in them and in yourself, and you see it on the collective sum of all, then you are loving god.

The main thing I live by is that I will not impose on another persons free will. I think from that, we can get the basis and understanding of the others. If you steal from someone, then you are infringing on their free will, if you kill someone, you are infringing on their free will. etc. The god part, however comes with understanding.

Hope that makes sense, kind of rambled a bit.



[edit on 7-1-2009 by badmedia]

reply to post by badmedia

Originally posted by badmedia

Originally posted by L.I.B.
Yes, but what I pointed out to you was from the old testament. Numbers 12:6.

Jesus also manifests, in the flesh, to people.

I coulda swore what you pointed out to me was in Acts. Numbers is old testament. What you pointed out to me was Jesus saying this is how he would appear, and so it couldn't have been from the old testament.

I sent you the u2u message that shows it was the Numbers 12:6 verse I gave to/pointed out to you. Perhaps when after that I said "he" it was interpretted to mean Jesus, when I was meaning God. My bad.

As far as I can tell, the Numbers quotes is where it says there is an exception for moses, but this is because moses is faithful. Obviously at the time Paul was not.

Just guessing here, but it could be said that you were not either... in the sense that you did not "believe", but you were being faithful in another fashion. Paul was faithful to the letter of the law, not necessarily at that time was he faithful to the spirit of the law. So, he too was faithful in certain respects. This is conjecture here... as I see it God does as God wills, and apparently there are qualities within you, as there were in Paul, and whoever else he chooses that God can perform his will in best.

Numbers 12:6 And he said, "Hear my words: If there is a prophet among you, I the LORD make myself known to him in a vision; I speak with him in a dream.

Now, this is actually closer to what I experienced. As it was the father, not Jesus that I seen.

Mine went: dream of Father (known because they self-identified) wherein there was verbal interaction, then a vision, followed by the download we have both referred to. Like you, these events were not physical either. No one else could have observed them.

But my hair didn't turn white or any of that other stuff, and I don't remember any accounts of that also happening to Paul.

The Road to Damascus experience. His vision was of Jesus. Do remember that Jesus and the Father are One and that because Paul's vision was just of Jesus doesn't mean that he/Paul didn't receive as you and I did.

Also, those with Paul were not able to hear the intelligence in the verbal transmission, but did hear a sound. Paul heard and responded to the intelligence.

Didn't know that would make me a prophet though, that is somewhat interesting. Thought everyone would get the same upon getting the holy spirit.

No. Everyone doesn't get the same. LOL, said with gentle ribbing... if you had read/accepted Paul's writings, you would know this. See 1 Corinthians 12:27.

Onto your post that I didn't finish responding to earlier.

Yes, Jesus did say that he would appear after his death:

A little while, and you will no longer see Me; and again a little while, and you will see Me." John 16:16

Jesus DID appear several times after his death to many different people. To this day, Jesus and the Father are appearing to people... and, this appearing of Jesus is not restricted to visions or dreams.

But Jesus does say he will appear to people in visions and dreams. That is how those who see him will see him. And that is how he manifests to people. You were the one who pointed this out to me.

I think we have gotten this straighten out? And what we have experienced, does not negate that Jesus also manifests himself physically to people in the present time.

This is all explained in John 14, which was the same chapter that got me to look towards the bible.
~
abode means

# A dwelling place; a home.
# The act of abiding; a sojourn

So thus, they will come dwell inside of him, being present with that person, but not present unto the world.

And of course, this is also when the person recieves the holy spirit.

There are many stages on the path of Christianity. These were mentioned to you in the other thread we had been talking in. Some equate having the sensation of the seed of the kingdom planted as having received the holy spirit. Some equate having been born again to the same. Yet, neither are. There is so much that isn't known... sometimes is seems impossible stemming the overwhelming tide of ignorance. See John 1:12... "the right has been given to become".

You were born into this world at a stage that allowed you to receive what you did. Others are striving to that same stage. It is a problem all these different stages... like how the scriptures opened up after your vision, and yet they remain closed to those who have yet to have their eyes opened. Same words.. understood differently. And, everyone within each of the stages thinks that they have reached the pinnacle and so everyone has the tendency to consider themselves right and everyone else wrong.

continued...

reply to post by badmedia


continuing on...

And why is Paul so special that he gets a physical manifestation, but countless other people do not get it?

The reasons could be manifold. Paul, as I have experienced, had the physical after his vision. Special? I don't know. I just know it happens and from that I can verify that those manifold persons who said they saw Jesus after his death did in fact see him. It's not a matter of belief for me, in other words.

I do not know for sure, but I do not think that the physical manifestation visit outweighs or signifies something greater than what was given in the divine visitation/vision. Maybe I should contemplate this matter. I would say, however, that if the vision or dream isn't had first prior to the physical manifestation that the verity of the physical manifestation would be highly questionable.

Time and time again people look to the external for answers. People tell me all the time - why doesn't god just appear to me. And I have to tell them to look internally, not externally. And yet, Paul is so apparently so special that he gets physical manifestations ...

Being a prophet doesn't exclude being an apostle, being both of these does not exclude being a teacher and etc. However, if the lesser (I so dislike using that word in this regard, but cannot think of any other word) gifts are given, those lesser gifts don't make a person a teacher, or an apostle or a prophet.

Paul was given an extraordinary mission... fulfilling the Hebrew's duty to be a priest to all the nations. Jesus was sent to the Hebrews, Jesus chose Paul to send to the Gentiles.

About what you said above, that is excellent advice. Not only should we look inside, but we also must listen to our conscience... it is the voice of the Holy Spirit. As for why God doesn't reveal himself? Sometimes people give up too soon. Some people search their whole lives without ever finding.

...and is told to do things that others were told not to do. And I'm not supposed to think it sounds a bit fishy, especially in light of his contradictions?

Of course, lol, I do not know what you refer to. Unless you are referring to the 603 Mosaic laws that Gentiles are exempt from and always have been.

I would be more apt to believe that Paul was saying the vision itself was alot like a physical manifestation, because a vision is alot like it. But I know what I seen was not physical, and the surroundings I was in were not the surroundings I was in physically.

Paul was blinded by his vision for at least a couple days. He described it as a vision too and not a physical.

reply to post by badmedia



Very well put. A lot of this comes from understanding the difference between identifying and labeling.

To say christ is Jesus is labeling christ, thus, making it an image. The Law is simply identifying rationalization that seperates man from the beasts so beautifully. It is the ability to be able to recognize that it is in OUR power to make rational decisions and promote creation rather than destroy.

I say law and don't see it as a binding force, but I can see how others would hear "law" and see it as binding.

If one labels a punishment as hell and then condemns others to go there for not agreeing to worship their labeled god, then they are creating hell and it is *their* fate... not others.

But, I think this is the purpose for the physical world. To understand in a controlled enviroment the true power of our words. We tend to label rather than identify. We create our "heaven" .... we will find out how creative we are here by what we are creating here.

If we are creating misery for others, that is what we will create in the spiritual realm.

I enjoy *hearing* the things you speak. You obviously have the light of G.d in you.

Psalm 16: 6

[edit on 7-1-2009 by justamomma]

Originally posted by L.I.B.
I sent you the u2u message that shows it was the Numbers 12:6 verse I gave to/pointed out to you. Perhaps when after that I said "he" it was interpretted to mean Jesus, when I was meaning God. My bad.

Yeah, guess it was. Still could swear I remember somewhere of Jesus saying it as well. Odd. The matrix has shifted on me! lol.

Just guessing here, but it could be said that you were not either... in the sense that you did not "believe", but you were being faithful in another fashion. Paul was faithful to the letter of the law, not necessarily at that time was he faithful to the spirit of the law. So, he too was faithful in certain respects. This is conjecture here... as I see it God does as God wills, and apparently there are qualities within you, as there were in Paul, and whoever else he chooses that God can perform his will in best.

I dunno, in many ways I can say that yes I was already faithful, I just didn't know why. Like what I pointed out in another thread about the laws, I seen and understood those things years before my vision. Those were just things I seen because I could see the hypocrisy in how society acts. I have been among the rich and the poor, hard times and good etc. Experienced alot of different things, and so when people were judging others based on stereotypes, I kind of knew the truth of the situation and it was based on these things that I knew and followed those things. I've caught alot of flak and such in the past because of this as well, because just like now, I never keep my mouth shut on what I see. I was raised to speak up, because if I didn't speak up for myself, nobody else was going too. Although I did learn the hard way a few times on when to shut up lol.

The rest really came years later. When I started to seek beyond the earth/society. And that was seemingly all brought on the moment when I understood John 14:20. Just as it says - at that DAY(moment), the rest happened. I realized and seen, felt and rode that connection to the "bottom of the rabbit hole", and that is when the vision happened. But these things happened and then things made more sense, but my actual view on things didn't really change. I didn't run and embrace the church and still don't etc. I still see those same evils I saw before the experience.

So when did it all start? I don't know that it ever stopped for it to start. I can go back as far as I can remember and realize now that I was being blessed, or shown something for later. Of course, I didn't realize these things at the time. No matter what my circumstances, anything I needed was always given to me.

I was certainly not going around trying to persecute people, or anything like that. I wasn't looking for a way to get ahead in society, or a way of getting person gains, I was just looking for truth and honesty. I am not going to say it's not possible for Paul, because I don't know. If Paul didn't contridict Jesus in many very important ways, then it wouldn't be of issue. It is the fact that anyone can make claims of things that leads us to where we are. Because of this, I can only look based on what I learned and what matches it. That is the same way I seen Jesus was speaking truth. If it worked there, it should also work for Paul. If you show me any religious text in a translation I can understand, I can do these same things. I can listen to new age stuff and see truth in it, and then funny enough I can see those who totally miss the truth in it and focus on the image. I was not told Jesus is right, Paul is wrong. Nothing even close to that.

The Road to Damascus experience. His vision was of Jesus. Do remember that Jesus and the Father are One and that because Paul's vision was just of Jesus doesn't mean that he/Paul didn't receive as you and I did.

Also, those with Paul were not able to hear the intelligence in the verbal transmission, but did hear a sound. Paul heard and responded to the intelligence.

Maybe, I wasn't there I have no way of knowing. I know god is real, and I know that god will speak with some people. I must treat it the same way I treat UFO contactees - I think there is life out there, I think they have probably at one time or another visited, but those 2 things do not mean someone's contactee claims are real. At which point, I have to look into the logic and understandings behind what they tell me, and then see if it adds up or not. This is how I also look at Paul. This is also how everyone should look at me, or anyone else who makes such claims. And when I do this, again I see things that do not add up.

No. Everyone doesn't get the same. LOL, said with gentle ribbing... if you had read/accepted Paul's writings, you would know this. See 1 Corinthians 12:27.

Onto your post that I didn't finish responding to earlier.

I didn't mean exactly the same, but I do mean about the same. Of course Paul would need to say not everyone gets the same, so that in itself doesn't validate things. As I said before, it's possible, I do not put limits on Paul. But Paul is still not the one to be followed no matter what.

Badmedia why do you still claim that if we believe Paul then we are following him ? I dont follow Paul ...or Timothy or Luke or Matthew or Elijah or anyone else ...I follow GOD THE FATHER through his son Jesus Christ I consider Jesus the example that I want to follow ........I consider Jesus my very best friend and confidant and for sure the one that I would like to be like in my heart ..........I write poetry ...I wrote about 300 poems ....about 280 of them are about nothing but the Lord .....and my love for the LORD GOD OF HEAVEN.
Not once did I write about Paul or anyone else ...not even my ex husbands got poems written about them and I loved them too lol ....


I dont consider Paul above anyone ...he just inspires me ....and I believe him to be very blessed with the Holy Spirit and was faithful to the Lord unto death ..he gave up his own life to follow Christ (which is also an inspiration for me to do the same) ...he boldy told others about the Lord and did not care who it bothered ..or offended ...I admire his courage ..and his boldness ...and his downright stubborness to strive to be more like Christ >>(I believe he truly loved the Lord with all his heart soul and mind ) and in my opinion his fruit showed it ................

reply to post by justamomma


Greetings justamomma,

I think you have misconstrued what I was saying L.I.B. But that's okay.

I may have been unclear.

Let's start over.

Okay. It is a new day, and this is the day the Lord hath made. Let us be glad and rejoice in it.

We have a message (represented by Jesus) and then we have a lie (represented by Paul). If the NT is valid, then this is the only way in which it can be valid.

I don't accept that reasoning. It's like saying only parts of the OT are valid because the other parts portray God as evil. However, it still remains true that the vow taken by Israel at Mount Sinai and the resultant 603 laws are only for the Hebrews and not for Gentiles.

Jesus, who was careful how he worded things, said in Mark 13,

5. And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you:

6. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

He clearly states what he means. For many shall come in my name *IN THE NAME OF JESUS*.... saying(,) *I* am Christ. He is not talking about random people claiming to be saviors of the world... he touches on that a little further on in the context.

Now Paul does just that. He comes in the name of Jesus and claims that HE is Christ.

Philip 2:10-11
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

How is Paul saying that he/Paul is the Christ here?

He is misunderstanding the message of Jesus *because* he was not sent by Jesus.

I would have to say that this is not only conjecture, but your opinion and also that it is not biblically sound.

Jesus was merely here to enlighten the Jewish people that they were the messiah spoken of in Isaiah. As a collective, they were to be that light to the world (as Jesus clearly stated to *them*.. not the gentiles).

As it had always been, but instead the Jews consistently took on the idols of the lands they overthrew.

Jesus was not the messiah because the messiah's reign is forever (Jesus died.. but yes, he left the light with the Jewish people)...he was merely the one whose message was meant to enlighten the collective messiah so that they in turn could be a light to the world, thus setting the world free from the bonds of greedy power that seeks to destroy.

Why do you not appreciate that the message was taken to the Gentiles?

HOWEVER... Paul came in and took that message to the gentiles before the enlightenment could hit the Jewish people fully, ...

What are the Jewish people waiting on then? They still have the same message available to them.

... thus the message was manipulated.. badda bing... Jesus is now worshiped as G.d.

Following the Jewish tradition of going after false gods. Nevertheless, we have the history which shows that it was the bloody roman empire that manipulated the message.

Paul (the message of) objectifies G.d thus enabling the power to be maintained over the people.

Do you really not *hear* what I am *saying*?

Oh, I hear what you are saying. I just do not agree. For one, you are questioning God's will and saying God is wrong for choosing who he wills.

And to those saying that the letter of the Law has no effect today, you are misleading people with your words... though, I know it is unintentional because you have been misled.

I do not deny that those born into the Hebrew culture are supposed to continue upholding the 613 Laws of the Mosaic covenant.

I do deny, however, that Gentiles have to. This is based on fact i.e the Noahide Covenant. Any Jewish rabbi will tell you the same.

As for being misled... may I offer you a caution. There are at least three instances within this thread that you were adamantly insisting something that has been proven otherwise, which then were never addressed in a return reply. Please be careful in supposing whom might be misled based on this current track record.

The Letter of the Law, as it applies to all, makes perfect sense when the spirit of the Law is understood correctly. Just as your left eye alone would not give you perception, neither can you have perception of G.d without both the letter and the spirit.

Maimonides taught that a man can find God on a deserted island. Where is the letter, then? Wouldn't it be written upon the heart as God says he will do?

Question: What are the universal laws of mankind for? (the ones given to the Jewish people for all of mankind.... they are not the 10 commandments mind you).

These Universal Laws, as far as I know, were not just given to the Jewish people, and that they also become known through the interaction of the spirit. Rather than depend on memory, or dig through my journals wherein I wrote of them (before finding them expressed elsewhere), these are easily Googled.

What are they for? A mirror and explanation.

Remember: We may need the spirit of the law to understand, but it does not negate the purpose of the Letter.

The law is now written on the heart. Until that happens, the letter can be useful, but it can also be a curse.

I took the following comment from a post to someone else:

The main point of this thread is to say.... know the history and the mindset of what was written by WHOM it was written ~ in the Hebrew Scriptures because worshiping Jesus as G.d is not in accordance with the foundation that modern christianity claims to be based on.

I believe that there are better ways of accomplishing this without slandering someone and that would also be biblically correct.

"God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth." John 4:24

God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent; Has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good? Numbers 23:19

Why not build on your premise with something like that? Plus accepting the actual history of how the bloody roman empire enacted laws requiring worship to be done as they dictated under the penalty of death?


yeah, yeah, and edit

[edit on 8-1-2009 by L.I.B.]

Originally posted by Simplynoone
Badmedia why do you still claim that if we believe Paul then we are following him ? I dont follow Paul ...or Timothy or Luke or Matthew or Elijah or anyone else ...I follow GOD THE FATHER through his son Jesus Christ I consider Jesus the example that I want to follow ........I consider Jesus my very best friend and confidant and for sure the one that I would like to be like in my heart ..........I write poetry ...I wrote about 300 poems ....about 280 of them are about nothing but the Lord .....and my love for the LORD GOD OF HEAVEN.
Not once did I write about Paul or anyone else ...not even my ex husbands got poems written about them and I loved them too lol ....


I dont consider Paul above anyone ...he just inspires me ....and I believe him to be very blessed with the Holy Spirit and was faithful to the Lord unto death ..he gave up his own life to follow Christ (which is also an inspiration for me to do the same) ...he boldy told others about the Lord and did not care who it bothered ..or offended ...I admire his courage ..and his boldness ...and his downright stubborness to strive to be more like Christ >>(I believe he truly loved the Lord with all his heart soul and mind ) and in my opinion his fruit showed it ................

It doesn't matter if you say you are or aren't. If you support Paul, then you are following Paul. The true path is narrow and doesn't include what Paul claims it includes.

As I stated before, it's not like I just have something against Paul, or that I just immediately didn't like Paul. But time after time when I would quote Jesus on something, it is always the words of Paul that are given to me in response as a way of saying I'm wrong. Now maybe that doesn't mean much to you, but to me it says alot. I do not take the bible as my authority, I take the personal experience I had and learned as my authority. And Paul quite simply doesn't match that, while Jesus did.

I'd reject Jesus as well if what he said went against what I learned. But that just wasn't the case. Instead, I found Jesus saying the same things I learned.

Originally posted by justamomma

Originally posted by Wertdagf
Yes paul did indeed i think ruin what was needed to be taught.... he turned everything into idol worship.... worship jesus... worship the chruch...

he ruined it

I remember thinking it... sensing it. I was very glad to see that my gut instincts could be trusted.

There is only ONE G.d and He is not Jesus; nor is Jesus meant to be the light to the world and he was NEVER meant to be the messiah to the world. The light to the world happens to be the Jewish people (which I can also show through Scripture).

LOL, I liked this comment until the second to last word. Let go my friend, let go of the yoke in your mind. God has come for us all, there is only one people and it is the human being. Check yourself fool.

Pro 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof [are] the ways of death.
Pro 16:25 There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof [are] the ways of death.


Luk 8:18 Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.


That is really all that is left to say about this ...believe as you will badmedia and Justamomma ..as I said I am praying for you both ...that your eyes be opened to the TRUTH ....not the way that seems right to you ....

I am pretty sure that every believer would love it if they could just pick and choose what they want and discard the rest ..but unfortunately that is not the way it works ..As our ways are not GODS ways .....and it is not our will that matters but GODS will that matters ......... .................

Later .....

reply to post by badmedia

Yeah, guess it was. Still could swear I remember somewhere of Jesus saying it as well. Odd. The matrix has shifted on me! lol.

LOL

You are right though. It is where Jesus says that he and his father will come and make their abode with us. This is that accepting Jesus into your heart thing. It just doesn't always happen in such a dramatic way as it was done for you, nor is such a degree of knowledge given. It all depends where a person is at in their journey.

I dunno, in many ways I can say that yes I was already faithful, I just didn't know why.

This qualified you.

So when did it all start? I don't know that it ever stopped for it to start.

From what you have told me, what started (as a result of the vision) was how the truth as expressed by Jesus was opened up to you. Whereas before they didn't have the same meaning that they do now.

The Road to Damascus experience. His vision was of Jesus. Do remember that Jesus and the Father are One and that because Paul's vision was just of Jesus doesn't mean that he/Paul didn't receive as you and I did.

Also, those with Paul were not able to hear the intelligence in the verbal transmission, but did hear a sound. Paul heard and responded to the intelligence.

Maybe, I wasn't there I have no way of knowing.

But you were there when you had your vision and from that you can relate how that if another had been present, they wouldn't have observed what you did. And plus, you were able to respond to the intelligence within the vision that if another had been present with you, they may not have responded to it either.

No. Everyone doesn't get the same. LOL, said with gentle ribbing... if you had read/accepted Paul's writings, you would know this. See 1 Corinthians 12:27.

I didn't mean exactly the same, but I do mean about the same. Of course Paul would need to say not everyone gets the same, so that in itself doesn't validate things.

LOL, you didn't read it, did you? Good. Really. I should have indicated the whole of 1 Corinthians 12. Really, please take a look. It can help in seeing all the differences in the One body of Christ and how the "accepting Jesus into the heart" is expressed/manifested in different ways. As for the last verse... I don't know why the bible is set up the way it is... anyway, the last verse is referring to Chapter 13.

As I said before, it's possible, I do not put limits on Paul. But Paul is still not the one to be followed no matter what.

Correct. Paul is not the messenger for the age, as Christ Jesus was/is. Paul was an apostle. In that Chapter 12 that I really hope you will read, he is also telling us not to despise one another for receiving different gifts i.e as Jesus said: love one another, which is what Chapter 13 goes into.

I would dare say that those who always quote Paul back to you are those who suffer from blind belief and have not yet had the holy spirit bestowed upon them... such is the way for those whom have only had the seed of the kingdom planted.

They, like any plant, must be nurtured so that one day they too can become one of the greatest of the trees in the garden. From this nurturing they can mature from being babies having only the milk of belief and can grow into being able to digest the meat of the message, which is: Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus. Philippians 2:5

Edit to add: And of course we all know what happens to those who have that kind of mind! No, seriously. Then follows the crucifixion, resurrection and ascension... eventually when the person is ready and can pass that test for which only God knows the hour.

[edit on 8-1-2009 by L.I.B.]

reply to post by badmedia


I apologize justamomma for not adding more of my 2 cents! I got caught up in other threads.

The book doesn't teach anything, only when you have the holy spirit can you understand it, and you don't need the book when you have the holy spirit to teach you things, god is not as limited as Christians and other faiths make him out to be. These limitations are claimed so that someone can jump in and be the middle man, or make the claim of being such and lead people astray.

Only a search within can lead you to god. Those who search externally will never find it, they will simply accept another physical being(the anti-christ) as being that because they are blind and deceived. And that is what Paul and the church builds up when they build up the idol, and when they build up there powers as god on earth. An external and physical replacement.

I couldn't agree with you more. This shows the damnation that will come upon religion and IS happening to all religions. Their entire goal is to entrap the members into looking to them for guidance. Hence, the need for pastors, rabbis, fathers, elders and ministers.

There is a scripture that says that God is a jealous God who exacts exclusive devotion. It seems that religion has overlooked that point! Yet, the religious are so obviously devoting themselves to their religious beliefs regardless of whether they are correct in their understanding, or not.

I place a heavy responsibility on Paul. I do not let him off the hook! If he had been truly dedicated to Jesus - he would have promoted Jesus beliefs and love. But he promoted his pagan beliefs and indoctrinated them into Christianity - HIS religion.