Paul ~ Inventing a new saviour

I'm not reading all 86 pages here, but if this has already been posted, it needs to be posted again.

1. Light of the world; giver of life = The Sun!
All religion is based on Sun worship.
Humans have gotten confused when the Sun was personified.

I have to wonder why they cannot see this.

2. There is evidence that Paul was the same person as Josephus.
He was a "turncoat". He worked for the Romans. He contrived Christianity to control the masses and expand the Roman Empire.
The gullible were more afraid of an invisible entity than they were of the Roman soldiers.

This has proven to be an immensly succesful venture. THe churches are the richest corporations in the world.
Read "Vatican Billions", but don't stop there, you can find a lot of info on the holdings of the various churches on the net.
The Mormons seem to be a close 2nd to the Vatican.

This has been discussed on ATS here.

i havn't read this whole thread fully, i can't be motivated. For the OP though...

Whether your supposition is true or not, to somehow prove it by quoting inconsistencies in pieces of texts made by individual authors spanning many , many 100's of years is silly. Of course there will be inconsitencies.

I'm guessing your reasoning is the rhetoric the bible is the word of God. They are wrong when they say that, let's be honest. It obviously isn't. It's individual expereinces of supposed spiritual, political, racial, expereinces. Which can always at best only be subjective. These folks have relayed THEIR interpretation of experiences. God did not write the bible, humans did.

I'm not flaming you, or this topic here, :-) . Though, all the time on here i see so much stuff attempting to put down religion, valid or not.

A possibly interesting view i have, is that the insitgators of a NWO would not in fact want the myriad of religions we have. Think about it, we have so many religions that can't agree on the colour of the sky. How can they ever agree? It is this lack of agreement, this consistent willingness to stick to their own beliefs, that for sure, may seem mindless, yet it is also keeping some form of diversity.

A NWO, wants same currency, same politics, same religion maybe? NO religion maybe?!! So what we do on this forum, we spend our energy invalidating another concept that enables us have our own opinion & right to disagree.

Not speaking about the OP here neccessarily, but i'm pointing out there may be others in the world who gladly want & need religious diversity to cease.

First step is to invalidate religion....

take care
Wayne

[edit on 26-2-2009 by reiki]

Originally posted by OhZone


1. Light of the world; giver of life = The Sun!
All religion is based on Sun worship.
Humans have gotten confused when the Sun was personified.

I have to wonder why they cannot see this.

Can you talk with me in some detail as to what exactly Christianity has to do with the sun? Preferably pre-Emporer constantine, as his actions were largely political , imo.

I'm not a Chrisitan btw, but am interested in these suppositions that are lossely bandied about. It doesn't have to be just Christian, we can do egyptian, in another topic, or in U2U.

take care
Wayne

To share a little of my experience. I have recently finished reading my bible, and I do have to admit that, when I got to reading Paul's book/gospel. There was definitely something odd about it. Out of all the books in the bible, it's the one book that just feels... misplaced... like it doesn't belong there for some reason. Anyone else get that feeling when they read the book/gospel of Paul?

Originally posted by Question
To share a little of my experience. I have recently finished reading my bible, and I do have to admit that, when I got to reading Paul's book/gospel. There was definitely something odd about it. Out of all the books in the bible, it's the one book that just feels... misplaced... like it doesn't belong there for some reason. Anyone else get that feeling when they read the book/gospel of Paul?

Well, Paul wrote most (if not all but the some of the gospels) of the NT. Acts is what I have always found so eerie. So much *hush hush* being done in that book. But the more times I read it, the more that pops out at me. Understand that Hellenistic mysticism is succesful via confusion and and illusion. Power of suggestion type thing. This is what is done all throughout the writings of Paul. And sure enough, the major mentality today focuses on this power of suggestion via media, religion, etc.

We just accept whatever we are told to as though it is fact even though we ourselves may have no way of knowing for sure. Thus suspicions rise, anxiety sets in, and false hopes are grasped onto as security blankets.

That is what I see in the writings of Paul. I know a lot of people think that the Tanakh is scary, but honestly, I find more peace in the Word spoken behind those words than I do in the writings of Paul. I was always left feeling unsure and in doubt after reading the NT. Now I can look at them and see all the power that is wrapped up in those books that pursuade people oh so subtely.

Originally posted by justamomma
Well, Paul wrote most (if not all but the some of the gospels) of the NT. Acts is what I have always found so eerie.

where did you get this information?

the writing style of paul is nothing like that of the gospels.

and its more likely that luke wrote acts.

reply to post by OhZone


I agree with this post in the part that the religions reflect the ancient knowledge of the giver of life (the sun). All one has to do is follow the path of the sun for a couple of years, learn what it is doing....and the path of holy holidays and births and deaths of great teachers reflect the path of the sun.

I dont think this is a mistake, or relgigons are a mistake, I think humans need a diversity of paths to learn 'order' and it seems to me that there is a deeper understanding to ALL relgions of 'star' prophecies and 'as above, so below' kind of teachings that run through out all religions.

'Nothing new under the sun'.

This doesnt make God false...or certain religions right or wrong, but yet mirrors the most ancient beliefs of this world.

LV

Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by justamomma
Well, Paul wrote most (if not all but the some of the gospels) of the NT. Acts is what I have always found so eerie.

where did you get this information?

the writing style of paul is nothing like that of the gospels.

and its more likely that luke wrote acts.

I said "if not all BUT SOME of the gospels"... for instance, I do not believe in the resurrection of man as it is anything but natural and being that God, the creator of Life and Nature promised to never change, using the Nature of Reason, I can weigh out the evidences before me. Therefore, given that Jesus, the Jewish Rabbi, was adament about the Jewish not going in the way of the Gentiles, the Great Commission that took place after the resurrection was obviously interpolated at a later time by someone who wanted to support their deceptions.... *ahem* certainly gave Paul the back up that he needed... but yet it was contradictory to everything that Jesus said. We are able to think and be rational about these things. There is no need to believe things that do not make sense. We were given the brain by the Creator... and mine says that there was much interpolated into the NT and my guess is, it was by the one who wished to use the hellenistic mythologies to immortalize himself in the minds of mankind despite the devistating costs it has incurred.

[edit on 11-3-2009 by justamomma]

I don't think Ron Paul is the new saviour. It is more like Obama is the saviour and Ron Paul is the Judas. Maybe Ron Paul is the one who will be accused of crucifying Obama.

By the way, when Ron Paul said the recession will last 15 years I just started to laugh. His ideas sounded good before, now he is just a doomsday prophet...

reply to post by justamomma


Wow, I was arguing much the same thing with my sister, who is born again in Christ. I don't subscribe to the idea of Jesus being the only way to God. In fact, much like you, I walked away from the whole idea of any god until very recently and only then, after something was made clear to me, did I believe in the idea of a god again at all. Like you, my experience was intensely personal but I must say it wasn't born of any trouble in my life. It was the seeking that brought me where I am.

I'm still on my journey but often tell my sister that a one true god would likely present to people in very different ways. I've also told her that she cannot believe the Bible as it's printed today in the infallible word of God. I also bring up contradictions between Old and New Testaments and when she explains that Jesus was the start of a new law, I offer that it can't be true if it's contradicted. IOW, if the old prophesies the coming of Jesus but doesn't prophesy a new law to be in place of old, then you cannot break the old law. (See the laws in Lev.) No cherry picking. It must all stand up or it falls down.

I think that Jesus simply learned the truth and has been made a religion. That said, I do try to follow his teachings, you know the big ones, like love thy neighbor and all.

Anyway, great post even if I'm late getting here.

miche

reply to post by micheshi


Jesus doesn't change the laws. Instead he makes difference between man's laws(traditions etc) and god's laws(commandments). By his example he brings proper understanding of how to follow god's laws and the commandments, as the way of the time was built upon hypocrisy.

So Jesus doesn't bring "new laws", but rather new/correct understanding of the old laws. For example.

You reap what you sow, and the penalty for sin is death. OT way. However, these people thought they were justified in their actions, but did not realize they too were sinning(for vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord). So those people thought they were justified in killing a man who has killed. However, that is not just a single sin and justice, but rather seen as 2 sins. And those who killed the man who killed were in fact just hypocrites, as they killed as well. It is not their place to punish as such.

Did the commandments change? No. Only understanding of how to properly follow them. He pointed out the hypocrisy and showed the "way". Thus, by his example he is the "way".

Of course, Christianity in general is not really about that as a religion. They see it as some "new thing", where all they have to do is say "I believe in Jesus" and all is forgiven.

[edit on 30-3-2009 by badmedia]

reply to post by justamomma

Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

And that is the doctrinal lie: Christ is the end of the law for righteousness. Yet the Law has already been declared as perfect, FOREVER (no mentioning that there will be an end) and it can convert the soul (no mention of Jesus or a man converting the soul).

You are right, the law is perfect. If your saying you still have kept the law, you are a lier. Christ was the only man who kept the law (meaning perfectly) thus Christ fulfilled the law and sacrificed himself as a ransom for mans' sin asking only for faith(belief) in what he did, and if we have faith(In what Christ did) we get life. It's that simple. If Christ was just a man, how could he be perfect? Not even Ghandi is perfect. Name one sin Christ committed. Christ is predicted in the OT as well. It's obvious to me.

Isaiah 7:14
"Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel."

Isaiah 9:6
"For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."

Luke 16:17
"But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one dot of the Law to become void."

When Paul writes in romans that Christ is the end of the law, he means that it's the end of the cereimonial law, not the moral law aka, the ten commandments.

As for the trinity I do believe that is difficult to grasp, but its part of being enlightened, so I will share what I believe in a simple example.
First off, trinity having the prefix of tri- meanig three, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Think of these three as parts of a human body, the Father being the head (or brain), the Son being the flesh and blood, and the Holy Spirit being the heart. One or two of these parts are useless with out the other(s). This means if you say "I only worship God(Father, Holy Spirit) and not Christ(the Son)" is like saying "My body works fine with just a heart and a brain." The rest of a human body whould be dead witout flesh and blood, thus God whould be dead without Christ. On the other hand you can't just worship Christ either. All of these parts are intertwined with one another and are all equally needed for life and for God to function, that is what I believe.

Tell me what you think about this. I don't know if you already anwsered this ques. but do you believe in animal sacrifice?




[edit on 30-3-2009 by lawbringer]

[edit on 30-3-2009 by lawbringer]

[qoute]And then, of course, as I have mentioned:
Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

And that is the doctrinal lie: Christ is the end of the law for righteousness. Yet the Law has already been declared as perfect, FOREVER (no mentioning that there will be an end) and it can convert the soul (no mention of Jesus or a man converting the soul).

Psa 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
[qoute]

You are correct the law is from God and is perfect, can convert the soul, never going away, etc. etc.

What was the real purpose of the law and why would we need Jesus then?

Romans 7:12-14 (New International Version)
12So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. 13Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.

14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin.


Good questions because no one can follow the law to become holy/righteous. Instead because of the law they become aware of thier sin.

Jesus was able to follow the law to the letter and therefore was the fulfillment of the law. Through his sacrafice we have forgiveness of our shortcommings of the law.


You may want to read this link below for a better understanding of Mosaic law vs. Gods law and which one they are talking about in diffent parts of the Bible.

www.scribd.com...

Hit me up with any questions

[edit on 16-4-2009 by tnt3kgt]

[edit on 16-4-2009 by tnt3kgt]

Originally posted by justamomma

Originally posted by Wertdagf
Maybe to confuse the world was the fastest way to reveal the truth. Lies reveal truths in time... throught causality/GOD. One can see his errors and flaws through time and experiance.

I am not going to argue this for as I said, it is up to the seeker to decide. I would have to say that it was being raised christian and yet not seeing the power of G.d through christianity that sent me on my journey to find G.d. I have been amazed at the way He has proved Himself to me once I abandoned the worship of idols (jesus, the cross, etc) in order to find Him.

My personal view on Paul's manipulation involves many aspects.
One major aspect is that Rome, seeking power at the time, saw the power of Jesus' words (which WERE meant for the Jewish ppl, obviously, and not for gentiles~ for those who aren't aware of Jesus' apathy toward the gentiles, ask and I will show you) and used paganism and gentile conversion to regain control and ultimately discredit what Jesus most likely could have been doing for the Jewish people.

Hi/

The power of Jesus Words,was meant for the Jewish people?
That's nonsense!
Jesus Christ came for ALL the people,as Scripture states!
Paul did not manipulate anything!
Apostle Paul was a great teacher a true follower of the Lord Jesus Christ!

Apostle Paul had extensive knowledge and scholarship of the Old Testament, which were equal to his profound understanding of Christ's New Testament teachings.
Maybe this is why he is so discredited?
In his Humble Words.........
''" For I am the least of the Apostles,
who am not worthy to be called an Apostle,
because I persecuted the Church of God.
But by the grace of God I am what I am,
and His grace toward me was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all,
yet not I,
but the grace of God which was with me" (1 Cor. 15:9-10)
Toward understanding the Bible~Apostle Paul



And one must further study with the correct Old and New Testament!
Not some Translation of confusions!

~~~THE SEPTUAGINT~~~Of the Seventy!

The Septuagint allowed those with little or no knowledge of the Hebrew language or Judaic culture to read the prophecies and history that form the foundation of the Christian message, allowing its spread throughout the empire. In addition, much study has shown that the authors of the New Testament either allude to or quote directly from the Septuagint -a survey look at St. Paul's epistles will confirm this. Furthermore, Christian apologists since the Apostolic Fathers have used the Septuagint in defense of the Christian faith, such as Isaiah 7:14

An Historical account of The Septuagint Version~~~

ICXC NIKA
helen

EDIT.....Spelling!

[edit on 6/30/2009 by helen670]

reply to post by helen670


Actually, Jesus did not go to the "gentiles". Paul does.

As well, the fact that Paul makes himself into such an authority only goes to prove he is false. As Jesus says to not make yourself into such authorities, all are brothers.

Paul is all about the flesh, Jesus is all about the spirit. It's been pointed out a few times in this long thread. But I suppose I'll show you an example again.


Paul:

Romans 8

23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Jesus:

3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

So Paul sits around waiting for his flesh to be saved, and Jesus says you must be born of the spirit. Paul simply does not understand.

reply to post by justamomma




sorry, man. Those who don't have the holy spirit with them will not understand the bible and how it does not contradict itself.



It's really sad when I see people exposing their own inner struggles instead of what they thought was exposing the bible.